Learning to fly in CAP

Started by ryan s, October 08, 2006, 02:31:00 AM

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ryan s

what classes are avalible to learn to fly?
cadet airman Ryan scott
ner-ny-135 compsite sq.

capchiro

Ryan, your orientation flights are a beginning and a good orientation pilot will teach you some of the elementary flight stuff.  Most Wings offer flight scholarships to cadets, but they are competitive.  Once you are old enough and have obtained some cadet rank, there are powered and glider encampments in the summertime that will teach flight training.  If you are fortunate enough to be near an military base that has a flying club, you may be able to take flight training at a good discount using club aircraft and instructors.  There is a three week school in Alabama that offers private pilot training for about $4,000.00 that seems a good deal.  You are totally immersed in flight training for 3 weeks and are ready for your private flight test at the end of it.  You may be able to find a squadron offering ground school near you or you can complete ground school on the internet.  There are a million and one ways to get into aviation if you really want to and now is the time.  All of us old f-rts will be retiring (mandatory Airline pilot age is 60) that were trained during Viet Nam.  A lot of slots will be opening up.  A lot of regional (small) airports are expanding to handle the increased need for corporate jets.  New models of corporate jets are being built.  This is a good time for a person to get into aviation.  Have big dreams and go for them.  The sky is the limit.
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Lancer

How about us middle aged farts?  :P What CAP programs exist for us S'members who want to learn how to fly, if any.

I know you need a private pilots license to fly corporate aircraft, but if you were to get a sport pilot's license and had your own plane, can you fly missions for CAP?

When I was a cadet some 20 years ago, I was only able to get two powered O-Flights and my second was in the back seat during a SARex. I want to get back in the air!  ;)

Al Sayre

See CAPR 60-1, Light sport pilots and recreational pilots are not qualified to be mission pilots (even in your own plane).  I believe I also read somewhere (but I don't have time to look for it right now) that only normally certificated aircraft can be used on missions.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

Lancer

Quote from: Al Sayre on November 01, 2006, 04:44:57 PM
See CAPR 60-1, Light sport pilots and recreational pilots are not qualified to be mission pilots (even in your own plane).  I believe I also read somewhere (but I don't have time to look for it right now) that only normally certificated aircraft can be used on missions.

All I could find was:

2-1: n. Individuals holding an FAA recreational pilot certificate are restricted from being CAPF 5 qualified in CAP aircraft.

and

2-3. Required Airworthiness Certificate. Aircraft used on CAP flight activities must have a current FAA airworthiness certificate. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, autogyros, gyrocopters, helicopters, experimental, primary category, home-built, and single seat powered aircraft (except member furnished glider tow planes) are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

If a sport pilot owned a commercially manufactured 2 seat (or more) aircraft with the Airworthiness Cert., you'd think there wouldn't be a problem. As long as the search area is in an airspace rated for sport pilots and the time of search is daylight hours, I think it would be a loss to place anymore restrictions on the type of resources on hand, especially if that's all that might be available at the time.

Aside, from that, I still would like to know about Flight Training possibilities for SM's within CAP, if they exist.

Al Sayre

Problem for sport pilot is you aren't required to have a medical and therefore couldn't get a form 5 without one.  If you have a medical AND a sport pilot license AND an aircraft that meets the requirements AND can find a check pilot willing to give you a Form5 ride in your aircraft, then I suppose you could possibly get that far.  I don't think you could complete the SQTR for mission pilot in any LSA I am aware of, and I think that it is extremely unlikely that an IC would authorize a member owned LSA to be used on a mission with a sport pilot only mission pilot at the helm.

Use of CAP Aircraft for Senior Member Student Pilot Instruction is specifically prohibited in CAPR 60-1, Sect 2-4.j (you can however get a glider ticket)

After you have been in a year, you may be approved to work on a higher rating

From CAPR 60-1
Quote
3-6. CAP Pilot Flight Training Leading to an Additional Airman Rating or Certificate. Senior and cadet members may receive flight instruction from CAP instructors in CAP aircraft as follows:
a. CAP cadets up to 21 years of age may receive flight instruction from a CAP flight instructor leading to an airman certificate or rating, including authorized cadet solo flights and accomplishment of required practical test.
b. CAP pilots who have been an active member of CAP for at least 1 year, are authorized to receive flight training leading to the addition of an instrument rating on an existing private or commercial pilot certificate when his training has been approved by the wing (or region) commander and is conducted in CAP corporate aircraft. (Use mission symbol C17.)
c. CAP senior member mission pilots are authorized flight training leading to an instrument rating. (Use mission symbol C17.)
d. CAP senior member mission pilots are authorized flight training leading to an airman rating or certificate (commercial, certificated flight instructor, or certificated flight instructor instrument). (Use mission symbol C17.)
e. CAP senior members are authorized flight training in gliders by CAP CFIGs leading to a glider rating. This training must be approved in writing by the wing commander. This approval does not allow instruction of senior member student pilots in powered aircraft. (Use mission symbol C17.)
f. Non-pilot CAP senior member airplane flight training is not authorized unless requested in writing and approved by the Executive Director.

For CAP Pilots, CAPR 60-1 is the bible...dig deep
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

ande.boyer

Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 01, 2006, 03:54:35 PM
How about us middle aged farts?  :P What CAP programs exist for us S'members who want to learn how to fly, if any.

We're left out in the cold on this one.  CAP has structure in place to teach cadets how to fly because it's "AE" and "encouraging interest in aviation in tomorrow's leaders."  For officers the emphasis is on recruiting (already certificated) pilots....not training new pilots.

I heard back in the day CAP would let corporate planes be used for flight training for a PPL....then, apparently, lots of people joined, got their license, then quit.....oh well.

You just got to bite the bullet and go to your local FBO to get that first ticket.  I got my PPL 6 weeks ago...it's SOOO worth it =)

-ande

Al Sayre

Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

lordmonar

This year they are offering a Powered Flight Academy for senior members.

Also....60-1 has to be updated because to address Light Sport Aircraft.  They are not technically ultralights.

Also...by the current regs a LSA plane could be use (depending on how you interpret it) but the pilot must still possess a PPL (RPL and SPL are not enough for a CAPF 5 check ride).
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Lancer

Quote from: lordmonar on November 02, 2006, 07:53:46 PM
This year they are offering a Powered Flight Academy for senior members.

Details brother, details  ;D

Quote
...but the pilot must still possess a PPL (RPL and SPL are not enough for a CAPF 5 check ride).

I'd love to know the whys behind that.  ???

Also, if someone gets a SPL is there a SPL to PPL transition class available. The whole reason I bring up flying for CAP under an SPL is $3K is a LOT more do-able than $9K when it comes to us middle class shlub's.  ;D

Al Sayre

The why's are pretty simple, we frequently have to operate in controlled airspace, and PPL requires that the pilot know all of the ins and outs.  LSP and RPL's require sign offs or waivers,  or are prohibited from operating in some controlled airspace- big pain for the AOBD to try and keep track of during a mission.  Also, all of the new corporate aircraft we have carry at least 4 people.  Even with a recreational license, you'd be forced to leave two seats empty.  Then there is the whole night/cross country/instrument experience/training requirements that a PPL has that aren't required for LSP or RPL. 
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

Pylon

Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 02, 2006, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 02, 2006, 07:53:46 PM
This year they are offering a Powered Flight Academy for senior members.

Details brother, details  ;D

According to the August National Boards, the National Commander's update noted that:

"Based on input from members, a couple of National Senior Special Activities are being planned for Summer, FY07:

              Powered Flight Encampment

                 1. Self-supporting

                 2. No impact to the cadet activities

                 3. More info available in the fall"

I haven't seen anything since.  If you were very interested, I would put in a question to the CAP Knowledgebase to ask when they plan on releasing information on this.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Lancer

Quote from: Pylon on November 02, 2006, 09:27:21 PM
If you were very interested, I would put in a question to the CAP Knowledgebase to ask when they plan on releasing information on this.

Thanks Mike, will do! ;)

lordmonar

Quote from: Pylon on November 02, 2006, 09:27:21 PM
Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 02, 2006, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 02, 2006, 07:53:46 PM
This year they are offering a Powered Flight Academy for senior members.

Details brother, details  ;D

According to the August National Boards, the National Commander's update noted that:

"Based on input from members, a couple of National Senior Special Activities are being planned for Summer, FY07:

              Powered Flight Encampment

                 1. Self-supporting

                 2. No impact to the cadet activities

                 3. More info available in the fall"

I haven't seen anything since.  If you were very interested, I would put in a question to the CAP Knowledgebase to ask when they plan on releasing information on this.

there was a link to the announcement on Cadet Stuff...but they seem to be down right now.  There is nothing on the NCSA web site...but I do remember the announcement specifically saying one of the two power flight academies were for seniors.

I will keep looking for it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Lancer

Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 02, 2006, 09:43:41 PM
Quote from: Pylon on November 02, 2006, 09:27:21 PM
If you were very interested, I would put in a question to the CAP Knowledgebase to ask when they plan on releasing information on this.

Thanks Mike, will do! ;)

Question asked, will update this thread when I hear something back.

Lancer

That was fast! See repsonse below:

Quote
-----Original Message-----
From: Karle, Don
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:06 AM
Subject: RE: I've heard that there is a Powered Flight Encampment being planned for Senior...

NAT/CC cancelled it because of cost.  Same with the glider activity planned for seniors.

CAP National Cadet Special Activities [NCSA]

Needless to say I'm rather bummed. Ah well. Such is life.  :(

Psicorp

The NAT/CC cancelled it due to cost, yet it's supposed to be self-funded.  Okay, makes sense...sorta, I think.    A lack of interest due to the cost I could understand.   
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

Pylon

Quote from: Psicorp on November 03, 2006, 03:40:38 PM
The NAT/CC cancelled it due to cost, yet it's supposed to be self-funded.  Okay, makes sense...sorta, I think.    A lack of interest due to the cost I could understand.   


Did they release a notice about it being cancelled?  I'm very curious, because I would have considered such an activity -- if not this year, then in the next few.

Plus, how can the NHQ/CC cancel something that the National Board has directed be held?
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Psicorp

Quote from: Pylon on November 03, 2006, 06:28:15 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on November 03, 2006, 03:40:38 PM
The NAT/CC cancelled it due to cost, yet it's supposed to be self-funded.  Okay, makes sense...sorta, I think.    A lack of interest due to the cost I could understand.   


Did they release a notice about it being cancelled?  I'm very curious, because I would have considered such an activity -- if not this year, then in the next few.

Plus, how can the NHQ/CC cancel something that the National Board has directed be held?

I haven't seen a written notice yet, sir.  It is now listed in the Knowledge Base, thanks to SM Curtis.   All his fault ;)  Just kidding. 

As for how it can be cancelled when the NB "ordered" it, no idea (speculations will be abundant, I'm sure).   I have a feeling that it will be placed back on the schedule at some point.   I was looking forward to it as well...who better to earn my PPL from than the people I will be flying with??   

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

SJFedor

Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 02, 2006, 08:02:50 PM

Also, if someone gets a SPL is there a SPL to PPL transition class available. The whole reason I bring up flying for CAP under an SPL is $3K is a LOT more do-able than $9K when it comes to us middle class shlub's.  ;D

Believe it or not, I'm pretty sure you're gonna save more money just doing it once through and being done with it.

If you're curious, google FAR 61 subpart J, Sport Pilots, starting with section 61.301. As you read through, you'll notice there's a ton of limitations. No entering controlled airspace other then class E unless you have a special endorsement. No operating an aircraft with a maximum speed of 87 knots or greater at level sustained flight with max power without an endorsement. Can't carry more then 1 passenger. Can't fly at night (cuz God knows, its a high percentage of ELT sorties that start at 3AM). Aircraft max weight cannot exceed 1,320lbs. To compare, most CAP C-172s with the 180hp conversion max at 2550lbs. 182's in the 27-2800 range (I think, no F5 in the 182 yet), 206's and GA-8s in the high 2's to 3's.

Not to mention, the FAA exemption that allows private pilots to fly AF assigned missions without a commercial certificate doesn't apply to sport or recreational pilots. And I doubt the FAA would bend on that one.

Go big, get the private knocked out. You'll need 175 PIC time before you can even train to be a mission pilot, and 200 PIC before you can be mission capable. Might as well get the private done and over with. If you can't put all the money forward, I used Pilot Finance Inc. to finance my instrument rating. They're really great, will help you get the money you need, and the rates aren't all that horrible if you have a decent credit score. Plus, they don't just hand over the cash and let you (or the flight school) go wild. Every time you fly, you fill out a sheet, which the school signs, and is faxed to pilot finance. They then disburse the funds back to the school. They'll also disburse for books, ground instruction, required FAA knowledge tests, equipment, just about anything you need to complete your training.

There's so many limits on sport and recreational that I'd recommend to anyone to just do the private from the start. You can't upgrade to instrument or commercial with a sport or recreational without first going through private. It's a little more $ up front, but it's much better for you in the long run.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

SJFedor

Quote from: Psicorp on November 03, 2006, 07:47:35 PM
I was looking forward to it as well...who better to earn my PPL from than the people I will be flying with??   

I have a feeling it won't be an all inclusive "get your private fast" course. It'll probably be in line with the cadet NFA standards, 10-15 hours of flight time, ground instruction, solo if you're a good s'member. Definitely a good idea in my book.

They just need to make an addendum to the 60-1 that says "Senior National Flight Academy graduates may use CAP corporate aircraft to complete their private pilot training, with Wing Commander approval"

Or you guys can wait a year or so until I get my CFI. Spend the summer in Tennessee, pay for the aircraft, I'll fly and teach for free. Just buy pizza every now n then.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

BillB

Almost the same day they announced the cancellation, they announced that there were two flight scholarships available for seniors and two for cadets.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

SJFedor

That was money that AOPA put up though, not National.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

Lancer

Hey SJFedor, thanks for all the words of wisdom. I was unaware of companies like Pilot Finance Inc., that's great, a great way to do it. Of course as much as I'd like to spend the summer in Tenn. next year, unless I became independently wealthy, that wouldn't be happening either. :-)

Besides, wifey has asked me to at least wait until the kids are grown before I start increasing my life threatening opportunities.  :angel:

Al Sayre

Yeah, those drives to and from the airport can be pretty dangerous...
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

JohnKachenmeister

The cheapest way to go is to join a flying club, or a military Aero Club if you live near a base.
Another former CAP officer

SJFedor

Depends on the military aero club. I know the one at the base I used to live by was for active and former mil, and those who didn't have that, but were CAP members, had to be SAR/DR MP's to be able to join.

But if you can get to them, absolutely do it.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

exarmyguard

Quote from: lordmonar on November 02, 2006, 07:53:46 PM
This year they are offering a Powered Flight Academy for senior members.

Also....60-1 has to be updated because to address Light Sport Aircraft.  They are not technically ultralights.

Also...by the current regs a LSA plane could be use (depending on how you interpret it) but the pilot must still possess a PPL (RPL and SPL are not enough for a CAPF 5 check ride).

Any more info on the Powered Flight for senior members, plz?

arajca

Not at this time. One was proposed, but got shot down for unknown reasons.

sdcadet

Quote from: ande.boyer on November 02, 2006, 03:42:00 PM
Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 01, 2006, 03:54:35 PM
How about us middle aged farts?  :P What CAP programs exist for us S'members who want to learn how to fly, if any.

We're left out in the cold on this one.  CAP has structure in place to teach cadets how to fly because it's "AE" and "encouraging interest in aviation in tomorrow's leaders."  For officers the emphasis is on recruiting (already certificated) pilots....not training new pilots.

Not neccesarily. SM are the only ones allowed to do SAR missions from the air, and (at least in my squadron), we're really trying to get SM mission certified and the whole deal. In regards to an academy for them though, none exists to my knowledge (outside of ES).

SarDragon

Quote from: sdcadet on January 06, 2007, 02:59:32 AM[stuff redacted] SM are the only ones allowed to do SAR missions from the air ...

Where does it say that?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Hotel 179

Quote from: SarDragon on January 06, 2007, 03:30:57 AM
Quote from: sdcadet on January 06, 2007, 02:59:32 AM[stuff redacted] SM are the only ones allowed to do SAR missions from the air ...

Where does it say that?

CAPR60-1 para2-6 says that Cadets must be 18 and qualified to participate in actual SAR missions....
Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida

DNall

Quote from: arajca on January 02, 2007, 03:51:12 AM
Not at this time. One was proposed, but got shot down for unknown reasons.
Thought there was an app for it under national special activities, deadline last month... no idea past that.

What exactly are the FAA restrictions by the way? CFI can't give lessons to 18+ in CAP planes? I mean I guess it's a fair trade for not needing CPL for mission flying, kinda sucks though.

sdcapmx

I like the earlier thread that said all of our CAP airplanes carry four people.  When is the last time you did a weight and balance on a new 182T and put four people in it.  Even to the bottom of the tabs on fuel you would be hard pressed to put four male adults in it.  Especially with the additional CAP equipment.  Maybe the pilot and three cadets but four adults.  Good luck.

bosshawk

Most of you folks  are not in Pacific Region, so don't know about the restriction on how many people can be put in the most prevalent aircraft in CAP.  PACR has a supplement to 60-1 which states what is commonly called the "60 horsepower rule".  What it essentially says is that you divide the horsepower of the aircraft by 60 to get the number of people who can be carried in the aircraft.  C-182 has 230 hp, so three people:  206 has 300 hp for takeoff, so if you are brave enough you can put 5 in it.  Because of the survival kit and other stuff carried on a routine basis, the Sq that I just came from removed the one seat in the third row of the 206: making it a four person plane.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777