ICS Courses

[isuhawkeye]

since you brought up the ICS courses can anyone explain how a document entered our training pipeline with answer keys to 6 EMI (Emergency Management Institute) courses.  This answer key was distributed as a "training aid".  Upon examination the document was created during the dates of the hawk mountain program. 

Can anyone also explain how a GTM entered Hawk last summer, and exited at the end of the program as an IC with out the wing CC's knowledge. 

as i have stated before I am a big supporter of the ranger program (In spite of my experiences)

[CadetProgramGuy]

......cut......... 

Can anyone also explain how a GTM entered Hawk last summer, and exited at the end of the program as an IC with out the wing CC's knowledge. 

Yes, that is quite interesting.  Any explinations?  If it is that easy, I will be a Hawk this summer.

[JC004]

......cut......... 

Can anyone also explain how a GTM entered Hawk last summer, and exited at the end of the program as an IC with out the wing CC's knowledge. 

Yes, that is quite interesting.  Any explinations?  If it is that easy, I will be a Hawk this summer.

I did support staff as a cadet for a couple years and got a lot of my quals knocked off (at least as much as I could being 17/18 at the time).  But believe me, the school commander at the time maaade me earn them.  He wasn't the type to sign things off for no reason.  Can't how it is now, but I don't think that GTM to IC happens too often, especially since key staff there don't have quals that high.  Plus, there is little opportunity to get Scanner/Observer there for AOBD, so there must have been additional quals on this person in question.

[floridacyclist]

You don't need AOBD....just AOBD OR GBD.

I know my kids went from basically nothing (still recovering from the electronic transition) to most of their GTM 1, 2, and 3 stuff with just a few signoffs left. I finished off GTM1 and GTL at Falcon. Not sure how you would go from almost nothing to IC in a week legitimately; even if it was possible, I wouldn't trust the experience level of that person. I think you need some time to simmer at each place along the way.

[Stonewall]

In NATCAP we had a couple of "shake 'n bake" ICs, but it took them a year.

[JC004]

You don't need AOBD....just AOBD OR GBD.

I know my kids went from basically nothing (still recovering from the electronic transition) to most of their GTM 1, 2, and 3 stuff with just a few signoffs left. I finished off GTM1 and GTL at Falcon. Not sure how you would go from almost nothing to IC in a week legitimately; even if it was possible, I wouldn't trust the experience level of that person. I think you need some time to simmer at each place along the way.

yea...

GBD and Mission Scanner

or

AOBD and GT/UDF

(to make PSC)

[floridacyclist]

Where are you seeing that about needing scanner or GTM/UDF for PSC? I heard it at Sun n Fun, but can't find it in writing anywhere.

[sardak]

^^
CAPR 60-3
2-3 i. Planning Section Chief (PSC).
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for PSC:
a) Qualified Air Operations Branch Director or Ground Branch Director (need not be current).

Personnel applying based on qualification as an Air Operations Branch Director requirement must have been qualified as a ground team or Urban DF team member at one time. Personnel applying based on qualification as a Ground Branch Director must also have been qualified as a mission scanner at one time.

Mike

[JC004]

^^
CAPR 60-3
2-3 i. Planning Section Chief (PSC).
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for PSC:
a) Qualified Air Operations Branch Director or Ground Branch Director (need not be current).

Personnel applying based on qualification as an Air Operations Branch Director requirement must have been qualified as a ground team or Urban DF team member at one time. Personnel applying based on qualification as a Ground Branch Director must also have been qualified as a mission scanner at one time.

Mike

What he said.  You just gotta go down the line to the pre-reqs for IC and the pre-reqs before that...

[floridacyclist]

I see that in 60-3. Funny that it never made it into the SQTRs. It never was an issue for me since Scanner was the first specialty I finished.

[JC004]

I see that in 60-3. Funny that it never made it into the SQTRs.

I did a size-up on the SQTRs vs. 60-3 a while back.  Pretty interesting...but I guess that a reg is the rule, right?  You could change the tasks, but I imagine you can't change the prereqs and all without changing the reg itself...

[floridacyclist]

Considering how much checking they put into other prereqs (cadets can't get GES until Curry is checked etc), I'm surprised that they let this one by, especially since it's not so obvious as to just make sense without any forethought.

[JC004]

Considering how much checking they put into other prereqs (cadets can't get GES until Curry is checked etc), I'm surprised that they let this one by, especially since it's not so obvious as to just make sense without any forethought.

I think you'll also notice that on some of the SQTRs, the "or" option isn't clear.  It makes it look like you need to have BOTH of something.  Not to mention spelling errors, incorrect task numbers, and/or variations from the SQTRs in PDF on the NHQ site.   

[floridacyclist]

I still get a kick out of having to "insect the team members"

Do we hose them down with bug spray or something?

[JC004]

I still get a kick out of having to "insect the team members"

Do we hose them down with bug spray or something?

Febreze if it's been long enough...kinda like encampment...

[sarmed1]

One major reason for the restriction is the plethora of different requirements for each state and, in some cases, within each state. Plus the whole Physician Advisor issue.

As Tony said, not something to hard to solve.

Firstly one could argue that when on an AF assigned mission status, state law does not apply as we are an AF instrumentality, hence need not meet state requirements as far as lincensure or scope of practeice.  When I was in the nasty guard, we had a similar predicament, medics could not operate using the Army standard unless they were on Federal status, unless they held an equivilent state certification.

Secondly, that "scope of care" that FEMA is looking at is pretty minimal.  I think EMT or Wilderness FR is more for the knowledge level rather than a specific skill set.  In that aspect it is level of competency that CAP could easily achieve.

Thirdly in the never ending debate by medical personnel:

6. Medical care policy.
a. Medical care within CAP is limited to emergency care, only (i.e., first aid and stabilization) within the training and qualifications of the person rendering such care, until such time that private professional or authorized military care can be obtained.

Honeslty what in the EMT-B or First Responder level are you going to do thats outside of that statement.  I doubt you are going to hump around enough oxygen cylinders to adminsiter that drug.  Oral glucose, I can buy it over the counter.  I dont see the time frame from exposre to find to make activated charcoal a likely administration.  AED, though a nice idea a) not in the wilderness setting and b) not likely readily (though would be nice) available to the average GT.  Everything else is pretty much accepted bystander care...bandaging, splinting.

The biggest stumbling block would be the liability issues, and as always I will argue that CAP is at a bigger liability risk for NOT assuring EMT-B as the prescribed standard of care, and via the NIMS document in the land of WSAR an expected standard of care.
Any EMT or above that values their certification would be a fool to not hold thier own personal liability/malpractice insurance anyway, and that would keep you out of trouble in the case of volunteering your skills with CAP.

mk

[arajca]

The biggest stumbling block would be the liability issues, and as always I will argue that CAP is at a bigger liability risk for NOT assuring EMT-B as the prescribed standard of care, and via the NIMS document in the land of WSAR an expected standard of care.

Only for Type I and II teams. Type III and IV require local EMS support. Realistically, CAP would only be fielding Type III or IV teams.

Any EMT or above that values their certification would be a fool to not hold thier own personal liability/malpractice insurance anyway, and that would keep you out of trouble in the case of volunteering your skills with CAP.

mk

That may save your money, home, etc from legal system losses, but it does not address the issue of losing certification/licensure for practicing without proper medical direction. There are cases where an EMT performed their duty appropriately, had a good outcome, but lost their cert because they were outside the area covered by their phys. adv. and were technically operating with medical control.

[JC004]

Only for Type I and II teams. Type III and IV require local EMS support. Realistically, CAP would only be fielding Type III or IV teams.

Absolutely agree.  Given the requirements, we will be Types III/IV.  But even to accomplish that, we have to seriously look at how our ES team system is organized.

[fyrfitrmedic]

The biggest stumbling block would be the liability issues, and as always I will argue that CAP is at a bigger liability risk for NOT assuring EMT-B as the prescribed standard of care, and via the NIMS document in the land of WSAR an expected standard of care.

Only for Type I and II teams. Type III and IV require local EMS support. Realistically, CAP would only be fielding Type III or IV teams.

Any EMT or above that values their certification would be a fool to not hold thier own personal liability/malpractice insurance anyway, and that would keep you out of trouble in the case of volunteering your skills with CAP.

mk

That may save your money, home, etc from legal system losses, but it does not address the issue of losing certification/licensure for practicing without proper medical direction. There are cases where an EMT performed their duty appropriately, had a good outcome, but lost their cert because they were outside the area covered by their phys. adv. and were technically operating with medical control.

Complex, but still not insoluble by a long shot.

[fyrfitrmedic]

Only for Type I and II teams. Type III and IV require local EMS support. Realistically, CAP would only be fielding Type III or IV teams.

Absolutely agree.  Given the requirements, we will be Types III/IV.  But even to accomplish that, we have to seriously look at how our ES team system is organized.

Agreed.

Any such examination must be done by a group diverse enough to transcend any parochialism or tribalism currently found within the organization.