CAP Reputation

[sardak]

Must be nice to work in a state where CAP members can actually tell the county sheriffs and the National Guard for that matter to butt out of our air SAR missions.

There have been incidents where CAP members have told a sheriff to butt out and the results weren't pretty. This creates issues similar to the one described by the OP. While there isn't a state agency with SAR authority, by law the sheriff is responsible for SAR within his/her jurisdiction. The procedure is that CAP is in charge until "jurisdiction is established," at which time CAP notifies the sheriff. The sheriff may ask CAP to continue, the sheriff may take complete charge, or most often, a "unified command" is established. It's usually more a of a joint operation than a true UC.

The larger issue, which has created long lasting problems, is CAP not notifying the sheriff once "jurisdiction is established."

Mike

[FW]

^ If that's really the case, we have some significant problems with understanding the "way things are" in today's environment.  We have an obligation to follow the rules; not play hero.  The focus should always be on successful outcomes; both procedurally and operationally.  It always amazes me (and it's not just CAP) when posturing is more important than the "save".

As was said before, education is the key however, there needs to be more command guidance in these matters.  Our customers must be confident we can work well with others before we can participate; not only in SAR but DR and CD ops too.

[isuhawkeye]

Since my state was brought up I can speak to a few of the things that were in place when I was in CAP.  I can not however speak to current arangements or programs. 

WIWICAP

The State had an MOU with AFRCC.  This MOU defined the missions that CAP would get called directly to support. Mostly these were ELT missions.  The state Duty officer and County sherif's were designated to coordinate with AFRCC for mission support.  An active working relationship with an understanding of capabilities, resources, and an agressive open training environment allowd for us to process missing person searches as well as other non AFRCC missions. For those the NOC and other coordination entities were worked through

For administrative structure the Wing Commander worked directly with the state adjutant general.  A point of clarification is that the CAP commander retained all controll and management of his resources, but there was a regular business relationship in place which included participation in regular staff meetings. 

this structure provided a very close working relationship offering funding, access to facilities, supplies, and real missions.

YMMV

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on a side note THERE IS ONLY 1 INCIDENT COMMANDER!!!!!!  (recognizind unified command as an acception)  This idea of a seperate independant possibly parallel incident command is bunk

[desertengineer1]

Must be nice to work in a state where CAP members can actually tell the county sheriffs and the National Guard for that matter to butt out of our air SAR missions.

I really hope that was sarcasm!   

Again, if an IC is doing such a thing, we deserve everything we get.

[RiverAux]

Must be nice to work in a state where CAP members can actually tell the county sheriffs and the National Guard for that matter to butt out of our air SAR missions.

I really hope that was sarcasm!   

Again, if an IC is doing such a thing, we deserve everything we get.

In this case, someone was asserting that CAP has independent authority to run air SAR missions in CO, which I believe is incorrect and that there actually is some MOU between the state and CAP and the state and AFRCC that delegates such authority to CAP. 

[Smithsonia]

'^^^^^^
River;
SARDAK knows best on this one. He's the guy that talks to the state all day, everyday. He's our AFRCC and State liaison. I was amazed when he showed me the MOU back in April. Once upon a time we ran the state of Colorado for SAR. Although things have changed it's still in the MOU.

[RiverAux]

'^^^^^^
River;
SARDAK knows best on this one. He's the guy that talks to the state all day, everyday. He's our AFRCC and State liaison. I was amazed when he showed me the MOU back in April. Once upon a time we ran the state of Colorado for SAR. Although things have changed it's still in the MOU.

So, there IS an MOU.  Thats what I've been saying all along.  A state certainly can delegate authority to CAP. 

This particular subplot was started by a question from Flying Pig about whether there was any state where CAP had "complete" authority for SAR.  I asserted that in no state did CAP have any such authority but that in certain places some authority had been delegated to us by the state through MOUs but that even in those cases the state was still ultimately in charge.

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^^
River;
There are number of historical documents upon which the MOU is built. I have seen several of those documents too. While the names of the documents and the dates escape me. My confidence in SARDAK's command of the subject and communication of the details does NOT escape me. He knows of what he speaks.

Through the years the State of Colorado has been served ever so well by the Patrol. Our list of history making firsts and mosts - Is legendary and the result of good members performing great deeds under the authority of these documents. BUT, we crossed a few lines (years ago) and have been chastised for it. In the 70s through 90s we even crossed state lines and told the out of state reporters that the "Colorado" Civil Air Patrol (Not the Civil Air Patrol in general) performed the rescue/find/save. That didn't go well with Wing Commanders in states that border Colorado. We deserved to have our kiester kicked for that. Our hind ends are still red and well as our faces about those cases. Being that Colorado has 7 adjoining states (can you name them all without looking at a map?)... that is a bunch of peaved off Colonels once upon a time.

We all learn and get humbler as we go.

[JC004]

...
on a side note THERE IS ONLY 1 INCIDENT COMMANDER!!!!!!  (recognizind unified command as an acception)  This idea of a seperate independant possibly parallel incident command is bunk

ty.

[FW]

^^^^^^^
River;
There are number of historical documents upon which the MOU is built. I have seen several of those documents too. While the names of the documents and the dates escape me. My confidence in SARDAK's command of the subject and communication of the details does NOT escape me. He knows of what he speaks.

Through the years the State of Colorado has been served ever so well by the Patrol. Our list of history making firsts and mosts - Is legendary and the result of good members performing great deeds under the authority of these documents. BUT, we crossed a few lines (years ago) and have been chastised for it. In the 70s through 90s we even crossed state lines and told the out of state reporters that the "Colorado" Civil Air Patrol (Not the Civil Air Patrol in general) performed the rescue/find/save. That didn't go well with Wing Commanders in states that border Colorado. We deserved to have our kiester kicked for that. Our hind ends are still red and well as our faces about those cases. Being that Colorado has 7 adjoining states (can you name them all without looking at a map?)... that is a bunch of peaved off Colonels once upon a time.

We all learn and get humbler as we go.

Many wings have great relationships with their state OEM's, NG  and other component organizations; having no problem in deligating CAP as the "primary lead component" in SAR.  However, as noted by AFRCC, when CAP is deligated as the lead organization, we are closely watched by the Air Force which holds a pretty tight oversight leash.  Even in WV wing where the CAP is considered a state government agency, the Air Force has complete oversight in it's affairs. 

As for wing "parochialism", I think that is a thing of the past.  If anything the last 15 years has taught us, it is we are really 1 CAP.

[RiverAux]

The point, in answer to the earlier question, is that even in those rare situations where CAP is the lead agency, we are only the lead agency because the state has delegated that authority to us.  It is not CAP's god given right.  They could just as easily delegate that authority to the local Rotary club.