CUL questions

[maverik]

Hello all,

I was wondering for you CUL's out there when doing the planning have any of you used the following forms:

ICS 205
ICS214
ICS 213
ICS 215A

If so how did you like those forms? I am thinking about using those with other forms as a means for comm plan etc.  Also what do you personally take into consideration when developing a comm paln?

[JoeTomasone]

What I take into consideration (from a radio perspective):

1. Who needs to communicate

2. Where those who need to communicate are/will be located

3. What bands are suitable to accomplish said communications over said distances (ISR/VHF/HF)

4. Availability of needed resources

5. Availability of required Comms-rated personnel

6. Who can use alternate forms of communication or can do without when resources are not available.

7. Failure recovery (equipment, power, operator unavailability due to illness/accident, etc).

8. Sustainability (keeping batteries charged, having replacement operators, being able to expand if/when the mission does, etc)

[lordmonar]

Also consideder any inter agency MOUs.  If doing a ground search with the local sherif....do you have an MOU to use their freqs? Do you have them programed in your radios?  Do they have equipment that they can loan you if you can't use CAP radior (UHV vs VHF, encription, etc).

[maverik]

Also where do you guys print forms?  Currently I'm looking for a way to print my forms in quantities (about how many do you have in a binder/ carrying case for comms at a time?) so i can bring them to an upcomin SAREX I will also have my Laptop and USB drive I will use.

[lordmonar]

Also where do you guys print forms?  Currently I'm looking for a way to print my forms in quantities (about how many do you have in a binder/ carrying case for comms at a time?) so i can bring them to an upcomin SAREX I will also have my Laptop and USB drive I will use.

We don't use forms.  We use the IMU and maybe a not pad to take notes on the fly.

[JoeTomasone]

Also where do you guys print forms?  Currently I'm looking for a way to print my forms in quantities (about how many do you have in a binder/ carrying case for comms at a time?) so i can bring them to an upcomin SAREX I will also have my Laptop and USB drive I will use.

We don't use forms.  We use the IMU and maybe a not pad to take notes on the fly.

Ditto.

[vento]

Also where do you guys print forms?  Currently I'm looking for a way to print my forms in quantities (about how many do you have in a binder/ carrying case for comms at a time?) so i can bring them to an upcomin SAREX I will also have my Laptop and USB drive I will use.

We don't use forms.  We use the IMU and maybe a not pad to take notes on the fly.

We use the IMU during SAREX and actual missions as well, but forms are still required. I can think of F104 for the flight crew, F109 for ground team, and F60 for everybody. I would think that a personal Laser printer should suffice for printing most forms that you will need. If you really need in large quantities, then I'd suggest you to take it to some place like Kinko's and print the forms, get a receipt so that you can get reimbursed.

BTW, the ICS forms are recommended to be used during planning if you know how to use them, you gain valuable experience with the forms and will feel comfortable during inter agency operations down the road. In CAWG, many activities are now planned based on the ICS structure where you have the various section chiefs, etc, etc... IMHO, the initial on line training IS-100; IS-200; IS-700; IS-800 doesn't really prepare an individual to fully understand how to properly use the forms and why the forms are designed the way they are. ICS-300 and ICS-400 courses are highly recommended. In short, try to use the forms if you are in the planning section. If you are not, then a notepad will do.

[maverik]

I'm  a cadet so I'm not to familiar with IMU would this be a tool I could use? If not I'll stick with the forms and what not.  I'm getting this together now so if I'm selected as the CUL I can be good to go.

[Fubar]

I'm  a cadet so I'm not to familiar with IMU would this be a tool I could use? If not I'll stick with the forms and what not.  I'm getting this together now so if I'm selected as the CUL I can be good to go.

At the last OPEX I attended, the comm guys were doing CAP radio message forms, a radio log, and IMU at the same time. Apparently they didn't trust IMU and wanted a paper backup in cause of computer failure, although it was causing them some workload issues keeping all three current and accurate.

[arajca]

IMU has a nasty habit of not letting you log call to/from an aircraft if it doesn't have an ATD entered. Which, from my experience, is not just the aircraft failing to call in, it's also IMU clitching at the the right/wrong time. About the only consistant use of IMU I have seen lately is for sign in.

[Short Field]

I'm getting this together now so if I'm selected as the CUL I can be good to go.

If you are already a CUL, they should have trained you on what your locale uses.  Procedures vary between wings.

At the last OPEX I attended, the comm guys were doing CAP radio message forms, a radio log, and IMU at the same time.

We always have a radio log going even when we use the IMU.  It serves the same role as a scratch pad as you jot stuff down while talking to the sortie.  This is then entered into the IMU.  At the end of the day, the paper log is trashed.  We try to use two MROs, one on the mic with the paper log and one on the computer with the IMU.  A good MRO has the radio call entered by the time it is finished.  However, if it is a long radio call, it sometimes takes some deciphering and summarizing to get it coherent in the computer.  Using a radio message form is a good idea if you are passing messages from OSC/PSC/AOBD/IC to the aircraft and back.  I have seen a lot of verbal messages get screwed up.

IMU has a nasty habit of not letting you log call to/from an aircraft if it doesn't have an ATD entered.

I haven't seen this problem in the IMU.  I just created an incident in the IMU, built a sortie and launched it to test out this problem.  No issue.  I was able to do radio checks with the sortie before it launched (prior to a ATD).  The sortie does have to have been flight released before it will show up on the radio log.  That makes sense since they shouldn't be in the aircraft (outside of a pre-flight) until they have briefed and been released to fly. 

[maverik]

Alright can someone explain what IMU is (wow I feel ignorant asking that). I do know local SOP that's not the problem, in the pass we've kept paper hard records etc. so I was just figuring out if it would be better to print forms out then fill them out or fill them out via laptop.  As for MRO if we have to radios set up one will be A/C the other GT and they keep their own logs and we usually have one runner if viable. 

EDIT:
I have found a guide for IMU and from what I can tell I can basically enter what I need to for comm once I log in and navigate to the comm part.  Now my question is does this need to be approved by the IC nad can a cadet with the required quals be able to use this tool?   < In all reality I know my limitations and since I haven't had a formal class I will probably pass on IMU unless told to use it, but I stil want to know if cadets generally usually use it.

[Short Field]

If your wing is not using the Incident Management Utility (IMU) for incidents, then you have no business using it either.  It takes wing support to be able to use the IMU.  You would first have to have a valid wing database loaded into the IMU.  You also have to create the incident in the IMU, sign in the people participating, sign in the vehicles and aircraft, create the taskings, build and assign the crews, etc, etc, etc.  It is not a program for one or two people to use when the rest of the mission base positions are not using it.  If your wing is using it, then everyone uses it.  Cadets assigned to a position requiring the IMU would use it to accomplish the duties of that position.

In our wing, at the close of a incident, the IMU files and photos are easily downloaded to a CD.  This includes all the comm logs, position logs, Fm 104s, 109s, IAPs, etc.  The fuel receipts are faxed to a computer file and downloaded to the same CD.  The CD is then labeled and stored in a CAP Fm 115, ES Mission Folder.  That satisfies all the record keeping and documentation required for a incident.  THIS is probably the major advantage of the IMU over other systems and ways of managing a mission.       

[wuzafuzz]

I'll take paper forms over IMU any day of the week.  The only infrastructure needed is something to write with.  Contrast that to IMU which requires a computer, getting the software running on that computer, reliable power, and networking of some kind for the most benefit.

Since I'm usually operating in some borrowed facility I already have to set up radios, power supplies, antennas and masts, not to mention tables and chairs.  Adding computers and networking to the mix puts me over the edge, and I'm a computer guy in my day job!  If we had permanent facilities (even a trailer) we could depend on I might feel differently.

[Short Field]

How do you release your flights through WMIRS without internet access?  You can run the IMU very successfully without networking or the internet.  However, the larger the mission, the greater the need for additional computers.

[wuzafuzz]

I'll take paper forms over IMU any day of the week.  The only infrastructure needed is something to write with.  Contrast that to IMU which requires a computer, getting the software running on that computer, reliable power, and networking of some kind for the most benefit.

Since I'm usually operating in some borrowed facility I already have to set up radios, power supplies, antennas and masts, not to mention tables and chairs.  Adding computers and networking to the mix puts me over the edge, and I'm a computer guy in my day job!  If we had permanent facilities (even a trailer) we could depend on I might feel differently.

I should have clarified that my earlier comments were only intended to address using IMU for communications logs.  Some Internet connectivity is needed for other purposes, including WMIRS as Short Field mentioned.

[CommGeek]

How do you release your flights through WMIRS without internet access?  You can run the IMU very successfully without networking or the internet.  However, the larger the mission, the greater the need for additional computers.

You use the F99 release in the e-release tool. do a 104 & F99, and upload it later.  you do NOT need internet to run IMU or a mission...
We have had great luck running a 'local' network with a 'local' IMU Server.  You do have to make provisions to use a real router, not a little linksys router.  But a commercial grade router if you are going to use more than a handfull of computers.  We 'broke' several routers in large scale missions....  Cisco Rocks!

[CommGeek]

You should have covered the forms in question in your ICS-300 course, a required element of CUL.

in the 'Real World' They are used all the time you have a complex communications plan.

[CommGeek]

I'll take paper forms over IMU any day of the week.  The only infrastructure needed is something to write with.  Contrast that to IMU which requires a computer, getting the software running on that computer, reliable power, and networking of some kind for the most benefit.

Since I'm usually operating in some borrowed facility I already have to set up radios, power supplies, antennas and masts, not to mention tables and chairs.  Adding computers and networking to the mix puts me over the edge, and I'm a computer guy in my day job!  If we had permanent facilities (even a trailer) we could depend on I might feel differently.

You might consider building a portable IMU server.  We are using the standard CAP issued HP Laptop (With some extra RAM) running IIS and an FTP Server , coupled with a refurbished cisco router and a switch as a portable IMU - IT  solution for "bare Base" operations.   Lets face it, we are not always going to be in a perfect facility with internet, phone, power....  We have to be prepared to bring it all with us.

[heliodoc]

AND in the Real World

There are PLENTY of paper copies given to crews and provided in the ICP, Staging areas, fire camps,etc for everyone to see

PAPER..... and copies given to each aircrew,helitack, engine, etc is handed out each day while on the incident.

IAP's  with Comm Plans are posted on Status boards across different incidents....don't see many First Response types carrying laptops to the scene...only in their rigs going to the incident.

The idea CAP is going everywhere where there is Internet access seems like they got the Internets and satellite links ALL sewed up to operate... Better a have a file with all the ICS forms and pens/ pencils available when the Internet feces hits the fan during some serious incidents!

Still need paper copies ...not everyone "gots" all the hookups needed for Internet.

Paper for backup......what happens when alll the Internets go down?   Better have paper backup for later entries so one does not have to recall what happened at the incident 2 weeks later....leaving alot to error..

Paper backup is mentioned earlier in this thread....better think about when the IMU goes AFU / SNAFU / TU!!

[CommGeek]

Heli you are absolutely right.

Our wing did a high profile exercise not too long ago.  The plan was to use IMU.  No problem...but IMU didn't work.  Instead of switching to paperwork the IC tried to troubleshoot IMU for SIX HOURS!  Not acceptable!  Technology is great, but when it fails we need to know how to do it the old way.

Don't get me started on CAP getting satellite internet....Its sad when your at a HUGE event and a local church group has satellite internet, and we dont!

Good point on the IAP and making all the Docs available.  CAP has never done this!  We need to start.

Nothing like the old wildfire days when you could get all the info you needed by looking at the board at staging....

Every IC is supposed to have a 'Mission Kit' ... Anyone on a mission for that matter.  Never leave home without it!

[lordmonar]

That we may not use it at some future event is NOT an excuse to not use it all the rest of the time.

Yes IMU is a pain.

Yes it is glitchy.

Yes it needs a robust server and large comm pipe.

But instead of just handing out paper and ignoring the IMU we need to work on getting up and running.

As for first responders going out in the field with lap tops....you are right they seldom do.

But CAP is not a "first responder" in the sense that you put it.

We will be running 90% of our operations right out of our own homes.  90% of the training will be done in our own home bases.

For the few times we have to operate outside of the comm infrastructure we can use the IMU in stand alone mode or paper and input it later.

The IMU is about command and control...and giving the IC the tools to more effectively manage the incident.

[Eclipse]

That we may not use it at some future event is NOT an excuse to not use it all the rest of the
As for first responders going out in the field with lap tops....you are right they seldom do.

Every firetruck and police car I have seen for 5 years has a notebook with some sort of packet or broadband capability.

I never leave the house without a notebook and a smartphone with both 3G and 4G capabilities - satellite is too slow and flaky to
be viable for the average user, and is not needed in most places we play - at the "big ones" FEMA or similar rolls in with a Sat truck
and Cat 5 and says "plug in here".

For the smaller ones, the ICP should be somewhere with robust infrastructure, in fact ICS dictates that, and then you can always
string out staging areas and similar to communicate via phone and radio.

The biggest failure in your scenario is the IC:

A) Being involved in setting up infrastructure at all.

2) Not insuring that the system was up and running the night/week/month beforehand.

C) Being involved in setting up infrastructure at all.

4) Not dropping to paper or "other" when the IMU didn't work.

E) Being involved in setting up infrastructure at all.

As a technology person who works primarily in the field and has to function within all the nonsense that CAP members do with their
machines, I would not ever trust a mission-critical asset to rely on members bringing their own machines and "hooking up" - you'll spend the first 4 hours uninstalling Facebook, Twitter, 15 toolbars, 12 pieces of malware, and applying the patches no one at the home unit could be bothered to install until today.

The primary systems should be dedicated to the task, and with all the machines being DRMO'ed because they are "old" - there is plenty of capable hardware around to make sure you have a group of 3 or 4 primary machines for the ICP.

[heliodoc]

You MIGHT have a point, Pat

BUT what happens when one day CAP is out in the boonies and not operatin' from home or home stattions...

Never thought or really said CAP was a first responder in the sense of anyone operation.

BUT one day CAP MAY be in a remote base and may have to plan accordingly.......

Yep technology is great...but some of the first response organizations and VFD's that I sometimes work with  do not have all the fancy toys and hardware that CAP or some of its more technologically astute members seem to think is the cure all answer all.

Like I was told one day of many days of hanging with many EM's...technology is great...but one day when the balloon goes up and some of the power grid infrastructure goes down and money isn't coming in from the Gov like it used for every little thing Homeland Security...we may have to resort many of our simpler days.  Not every firetruck or police car in many communities have a notebook and I have witnessed that..

Borrowing someones quote here ..."local perception is not always national reality."  So just because one community and organization MAY have the toys and tech there are many that do not.

I have seen ICP with less than robust infrastructure(s) and they STILL seem to get the job(s) done via phone and radio

[Eclipse]

BUT what happens when one day CAP is out in the boonies and not operatin' from home or home stattions...

There is no reason the ICP should ever be in an area without robust infrastructure.  It doesn't need to even be in the same county or state
as the actual operations.

The constant nonsense about having to scale every operation with stone tablets and papyrus because we might be somewhere without a cell signal has stifled innovation in CAP since before I was born.  CAP will likely not work in situations much worse than Katrina, and by the time we were involved, cell and data coverage was fully functional all the way to the Gulf Coast - that's the advantage of being a secondary / tertiary responder.

Everyone in a command or leadership role should have a full set of forms and some manual status boards as backup, but no one works in
stone-aged conditions anymore.

No one.

[heliodoc]

No one?

Cite please..

No one said papyrus and stone tablet.  Then you have not been in many operations non fire related West of the Mississippi or the Intermountain West

You'd have a better appreciation for what some folks have to deal with .....funding, LGA, etc.

But I forgot....Eclipse  ...once again ...you know alll!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[lordmonar]

BUT one day CAP MAY be in a remote base and may have to plan accordingly.......

Yep...you called it "plan accordingly".  We have CAP laptops....they have IMU loaded and are able to run in stand alone mode.

If you are in the boonies it is most likely going to be a small operation....we can still use IMU.....or if push come to shove...use paper.

Yep technology is great...but some of the first response organizations and VFD's that I sometimes work with  do not have all the fancy toys and hardware that CAP or some of its more technologically astute members seem to think is the cure all answer all.

Like I was told one day of many days of hanging with many EM's...technology is great...but one day when the balloon goes up and some of the power grid infrastructure goes down and money isn't coming in from the Gov like it used for every little thing Homeland Security...we may have to resort many of our simpler days.  Not every firetruck or police car in many communities have a notebook and I have witnessed that..

Borrowing someones quote here ..."local perception is not always national reality."  So just because one community and organization MAY have the toys and tech there are many that do not.

I have seen ICP with less than robust infrastructure(s) and they STILL seem to get the job(s) done via phone and radio

Just because the ancients built the pyramids with out cranes, block and tackle or power tools does not mean we have to do the same.

[heliodoc]

Sensitivities sure run HIGH in the CAP IMU arena, don't they? 

[Eclipse]

No one?

Cite please..

Cite a negative?  Not possible.

Show me a professionalized service that does - not even your beloved fire service operates that way.

[heliodoc]

My "beloved" fire service STILL uses paper at the dispatch centers as well as laptops, notebooks , whatever...

They are of the belief of manual status boards, T cards, and ICS forms to back up the computer, God forbid should theyt EVER have a glitch or FAIL

Sorry Eclipse, all knowing, I got CAP crap to do tonite......lesson plans for safety briefings  ...  rough draft on paper  final on the laptop

Hope the power doesn't go out!!

[Eclipse]

My "beloved" fire service STILL uses paper at the dispatch centers as well as laptops, notebooks , whatever...

Yeah, so do we...

Your beloved fire service also brings in infrastructure for a lot of fires that makes DS1 look like a border skirmish.

[wuzafuzz]

Good point on the IAP and making all the Docs available.  CAP has never done this!  We need to start.

Nothing like the old wildfire days when you could get all the info you needed by looking at the board at staging....

I've seen this done in CAP, and I've done it myself.  Is it done all the time?  Definitely not.

[wuzafuzz]

My "beloved" fire service STILL uses paper at the dispatch centers as well as laptops, notebooks , whatever...

They are of the belief of manual status boards, T cards, and ICS forms to back up the computer, God forbid should theyt EVER have a glitch or FAIL

Sorry Eclipse, all knowing, I got CAP crap to do tonite......lesson plans for safety briefings  ...  rough draft on paper  final on the laptop

Hope the power doesn't go out!!

I'd wager a fair number of volunteer SAR teams use a lot of paper.  They are a closer comparison to CAP than full time paid public safety folks.  How about CG Aux?  Red Cross?  Salvation Army?  I'll bet they use a lot of paper too. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for technology.  However, the idea of setting up an ad hoc network using a bunch of member-owned hardware and a borrowed WiFi connection from a hangar 300 feet away, ON TOP of already carting in my commo gear simply isn't at the top of my list as a CUL.  Perhaps some of you have better facilities and equipment, but that's how I've had to operate more often than not.  And that's for SAREX's planned far in advance; a large mission stood up on little notice will probably be even shakier.

[lordmonar]

I guess we are just lucky.

CAP sent every squadron a lap top computer.

We worked with the County and go a ton of used computers (enough to give each squadron 6-8).

We equiped our mission base with about 8-9 computers.  We just bought internet access.  The wing maintains the server.

No need to bring your own computers if you just look at what resources are available.

IMU gives you much better flexibilty.  It allows one central location the ability to run wing wide operations.  It allows for immediate updates of status both of current sorties, and future taskings.

It maintains the logs, personnel and equpment availablity.

Sure it can crash...sure it can be bogged down....sure it requires a lot of effort to set up and train your people.

But it is superior for command and control for large operations then paper.

[Eclipse]

I'd wager a fair number of volunteer SAR teams use a lot of paper.  They are a closer comparison to CAP than full time paid public safety folks.  How about CG Aux?  Red Cross?  Salvation Army?  I'll bet they use a lot of paper too. 

From my personal, hand-on, know-it-all experience with the ARC, I can tell you they bring in plenty of infrastructure, and because they
are handling money, including dispersing it, lodging for displaced persons, and providing meals for sometimes thousands at a time, they are using as much technology as anybody.

We all use too much paper, but these professional agencies bring logistics teams with them that light everything up for the field assets and local volunteers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for technology.  However, the idea of setting up an ad hoc network using a bunch of member-owned hardware and a borrowed WiFi connection from a hangar 300 feet away, ON TOP of already carting in my commo gear simply isn't at the top of my list as a CUL. 

Its also not your job - logistics / facilities or IT would be the people responsible for that, not comms.

As Ned (and I have said), there's been several thousand laptops issues to unit CC's in the last 5 years, and even the first-wave ones
are still plenty viable.  Most of the professionals I work with in CAP have handheld devices that can tether a notebook to the internet, and
in turn make a notebook an access point, not to mention awesome toys like Clearspot and MyFi's.

No excuse for a stone-age mentality beyond the fall-back.

[Robborsari]

 I have never had a network problem using routers from my junk bag and the cellphone modem.  Any $40 wireless router should work fine.

One thing we consider very important with IMU is backup options in case the network is lost.  To that end we keep a complete copy of the database on every machine that is participating in the mission.  Any system can become a server for the local network or run as a standalone system.  We distribute a free web server to allow any laptop to be configured as a server.

The ideal setup is:

Wing level internet server
local network clients.

This allows all the clients to communicate with the internet server over http protocal.  Most networks allow traffic on this port even if they have others blocked.  This fixed a lot of the connection issues we had in the past.  The http connection is also stateless.  No more having to restart if the server loses a message.  The database is on the local clients and on the server.  If the WAN connection is lost the local machines can be reconfigured to use one of them as a local server. 

If the local lan is lost then one machine can be used to run the mission until it is restored.  Once it is restored the one machines database can be uploaded to the server by the IC and full network operation can resume.

Even if all local power is lost the laptops should work for at least an hour.  This would allow a transition to paper if there was no way to restore local power.

IMU is integrated with WMIRS in several ways.  We can upload air and ground sorties on the fly and the flight release module jumps directly to the WMIRS e-release page for the flight you are releasing.  The comm module will automatically update wmirs with the ATD and ATA times when they are entered.  This vastly simplifies the job of the AOBD / OSC / IC by allowing them to enter the data once and keep WMIRS, and the status board up to date.  The web server is also able to serve the status board to any computer or phone with a browser.  This makes it easier for people who are not at the mission base and don't have IMU on their computer to keep an eye on the status board.

There is a lot of training that needs to be done for IMU to be used effectively but once you start using all the features it makes managing the mission and completing the required paperwork very easy.  (in my biased opinion   It also makes it easier to turn in all the required paperwork.  In my wing we have an officer who reviews all the mission packets before they get handed to our State Director.  He just pulls them off the main WMU server at National.  I can often have the paperwork ready to turn in the night the mission finishes and everyone uploads their last fuel receipts.

[CommGeek]

Rob,

We did several tests with LAN mode on IMU.  It works ok untill you hit around 8 pc's  then your linksys WLAN router starts to drop packets, and the RF gets too much interference.   Go wired and it solves the RF issues, but still drops packets at around 10 PC's.

Cisco 2600 Router we tested to 28 pc's  (Then we ran out of PC's)  but we had 0% packet loss.

In a pinch the linksys (or other cheap router ) will work.  For a large network you need a more robust router.

We have a cache of 10 laptops on a local domain and server we deploy as a  kit to support out IMT.



Paper backup is a MUST.... Im a firm believer that if you dont know how to use paper and you dont know what IMU does in the background, you wont have a clue what to do when IMU dosent work.

[arajca]

Unfortunately for many here, we do not yet have dedicated facilities that we can have set up all the time.  Those of you who do, need to keep that in mind. That is the reason COWG is establishing portable incident communications systems so we CAN set up where/when needed. Internet is a luxury we don't always have and can't always plan for.

Also, WMU is not maintained by National nor is it on a server maintained or operated by National.

Yes, there is a WHOLE lot of training needed, but we have problems with everyone wanting to go into the field and no one wanting to develop ANY skills that might lead to them being kept at base.

[CommGeek]

arajca,

your on the right track! 

[Eclipse]

Unfortunately for many here, we do not yet have dedicated facilities that we can have set up all the time.

Few of us do - everything I have ever done has been on a remote basis.

Also, WMU is not maintained by National nor is it on a server maintained or operated by National.

Correct, and the sooner someone flips the switch on it the better, but we're talking about the IMU, which is a stand-alone
app that pulls in CAPWATCH data.

Edit: - I just reviewed the instructions - step by step, but not for the faint of heart.  Where DOES the IMU get its data?  I thought it was CAPWATCH.

[wuzafuzz]

From my personal, hand-on, know-it-all experience with the ARC, I can tell you they bring in plenty of infrastructure, and because they
are handling money, including dispersing it, lodging for displaced persons, and providing meals for sometimes thousands at a time, they are using as much technology as anybody.

I believe Red Cross has tons more money than we do.  My comparison to other organizations still applies.

Its also not your job - logistics / facilities or IT would be the people responsible for that, not comms.

And when a fleet of volunteer IT folks (with hardware) doesn't show up to play?  It would be AWESOME if the infrastructure was provided.  My mileage is different than yours.

As Ned (and I have said), there's been several thousand laptops issues to unit CC's in the last 5 years, and even the first-wave ones
are still plenty viable. 

I have NEVER seen a CAP laptop show up in Comm, in spite of requesting them.  They are always in use by other people like IC's. 

Most of the professionals I work with in CAP have handheld devices that can tether a notebook to the internet, and
in turn make a notebook an access point, not to mention awesome toys like Clearspot and MyFi's.

No excuse for a stone-age mentality beyond the fall-back.

I'm not about to sign up for a data plan just to support CAP, and I have plenty of excuses to support that personal decision.  Member-owned computers, LAN/WAN hardware, radios, data plans, etc should not be a prerequisite for mission base jobs. 

As I said before, it would be completely awesome if the infrastructure were provided.  It's just my experience that such a scenario rarely happens at missions/exercises.  We have a lot of strengths in my wing/group, but that's not one of them.  It's not that we are a bunch of Luddites; the IT savvy folks are doing other things.

[Eclipse]

Its also not your job - logistics / facilities or IT would be the people responsible for that, not comms.

And when a fleet of volunteer IT folks (with hardware) doesn't show up to play?  It would be AWESOME if the infrastructure was provided.  My mileage is different than yours.

Not having someone there to do a given job doesn't make it any more your responsibility than not having an AOBD makes launching aircraft a GBD responsibility - if you choose to take it on because someone asks you to do it, then don't complain.  Otherwise, IT infrastructure is not the responsibility of Comms. Period.

The 5-P's are wholly applicable here.

I'm not about to sign up for a data plan just to support CAP, and I have plenty of excuses to support that personal decision.  Member-owned computers, LAN/WAN hardware, radios, data plans, etc should not be a prerequisite for mission base jobs. 

No one is suggesting you do, I merely said that a lot of people these days carry devices that can provide that capability as a matter of course, its not really that unique.

Member owned-computers and radios are not required for mission work - most wings are swimming in extra radio gear because the TOA
and our own rules make it "challenging" to issue the gear sometimes.  If there are artificial barriers put up by your wing or the gear is still being handed to the GOB's, that's a local problem, I agree, but not a national one.  I made it clear to my Wing LG that I would be happy to refurb notebooks returned by units who give them back when they get a new one - mostly the shiny blue and shiny silver Toshibas.   I was aghast that these very capable machines were going to be DRMO'ed just because they need to be scratch-loaded and maybe a little RAM added.  I think to date I've put 5 or 6 machines back into the unit channel or parked them in go kits for ES use.  There are two more sitting behind me waiting for my attention.

You might be surprised what is available if you just ask, and are willing to put in some preparation a few days before Armageddon.

[wuzafuzz]

Its also not your job - logistics / facilities or IT would be the people responsible for that, not comms.

And when a fleet of volunteer IT folks (with hardware) doesn't show up to play?  It would be AWESOME if the infrastructure was provided.  My mileage is different than yours.

Not having someone there to do a given job doesn't make it any more your responsibility than not having an AOBD makes launching aircraft a GBD responsibility - if you choose to take it on because someone asks you to do it, then don't complain.  Otherwise, IT infrastructure is not the responsibility of Comms. Period.

Exactly, so I'm left with PAPER.  I wasn't complaining BTW, simply explaining why I still prefer paper...as a CUL. 

I'm not about to sign up for a data plan just to support CAP, and I have plenty of excuses to support that personal decision.  Member-owned computers, LAN/WAN hardware, radios, data plans, etc should not be a prerequisite for mission base jobs. 

No one is suggesting you do, I merely said that a lot of people these days carry devices that can provide that capability as a matter of course, its not really that unique.

Availability of those devices depends on the demographics of your team.  Being member-owned equipment should we really be depending on it?  If those folks don't show up, we're hosed. 

Member owned-computers and radios are not required for mission work - most wings are swimming in extra radio gear because the TOA
and our own rules make it "challenging" to issue the gear sometimes.  If there are artificial barriers put up by your wing or the gear is still being handed to the GOB's, that's a local problem, I agree, but not a national one.  I made it clear to my Wing LG that I would be happy to refurb notebooks returned by units who give them back when they get a new one - mostly the shiny blue and shiny silver Toshibas.   I was aghast that these very capable machines were going to be DRMO'ed just because they need to be scratch-loaded and maybe a little RAM added.  I think to date I've put 5 or 6 machines back into the unit channel or parked them in go kits for ES use.  There are two more sitting behind me waiting for my attention.

You might be surprised what is available if you just ask, and are willing to put in some preparation a few days before Armageddon.

I wouldn't be surprised because I have asked.  My wing is actually pretty darn good at getting equipment into the field.  Since we don't have a decent place to store our equipment most of it is issued to individuals.  One result of that is those items are only available on short notice if they are.

Your laptop refurb program sounds like a great way to keep machines available for ES.  Good work!

What it comes down to IMHO is this: if we train at SAREX's with months to plan and we still usually lack good IT support, I cannot reasonably expect IT support for a REDCAP.  That's why I still plan to use paper.  If we ever score a place to hang our hat the whole deal could change and I'd help change it.  If I ever win the lotto I'll fund a local or mobile CAP command post myself!   

[Robborsari]

Rob,

We did several tests with LAN mode on IMU.  It works ok untill you hit around 8 pc's  then your linksys WLAN router starts to drop packets, and the RF gets too much interference.   Go wired and it solves the RF issues, but still drops packets at around 10 PC's.

Cisco 2600 Router we tested to 28 pc's  (Then we ran out of PC's)  but we had 0% packet loss.

In a pinch the linksys (or other cheap router ) will work.  For a large network you need a more robust router.

We have a cache of 10 laptops on a local domain and server we deploy as a  kit to support out IMT.



Paper backup is a MUST.... Im a firm believer that if you dont know how to use paper and you dont know what IMU does in the background, you wont have a clue what to do when IMU dosent work.

The lan mode was using a .net rpc method.  The lan mode is not in IMU anymore.  It now uses http protocol which is much lighter weight. 

[Robborsari]

Unfortunately for many here, we do not yet have dedicated facilities that we can have set up all the time.  Those of you who do, need to keep that in mind. That is the reason COWG is establishing portable incident communications systems so we CAN set up where/when needed. Internet is a luxury we don't always have and can't always plan for.

Also, WMU is not maintained by National nor is it on a server maintained or operated by National.

Yes, there is a WHOLE lot of training needed, but we have problems with everyone wanting to go into the field and no one wanting to develop ANY skills that might lead to them being kept at base.

My understanding is that the server is in fact located at national and backed up by the national IT staff.  The WMU itself is maintained by the author Pete Anderson of OR wing.

[CommGeek]

Rob,

When I said LAN mode I meant hosting a server on IIS or Cassini locally, without hitting the internet

[Robborsari]

Rob,

When I said LAN mode I meant hosting a server on IIS or Cassini locally, without hitting the internet

Ok.  Thats strange.  I have never had traffic issues with cheap routers even when using the cellphone modem.  I guess I have hardy routers.  Or a higher tolerance for dropped packets    

[lordmonar]

I just got an E-mail from my wing CC....Natioanl is looking to put together a team to intragrate IMU, E-services, WMU and WIMRS into one or two national level systems.

[Robborsari]

I just got an E-mail from my wing CC....Natioanl is looking to put together a team to intragrate IMU, E-services, WMU and WIMRS into one or two national level systems.

Thats great.  They have not told Pete that yet.  I hope we can work something out.

[Eclipse]

I just got an E-mail from my wing CC....Natioanl is looking to put together a team to intragrate IMU, E-services, WMU and WIMRS into one or two national level systems.

The key there is still "looking to put a team together" - this is still pre-RFP, which means we won't see anything in production for a couple of years.