Proposal to fix Lt.Col Coffebringer "Issue"

[Eclipse]

Making up "new" even more confusing "grades" is not a fix.

This situation will never be fixed until grade is either wholly provisional, or CAP adopts an "up or out" philosophy.

There's simply no other way to fix it as long as members are allowed to ascend and then later descend.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Typically, grade is accorded based on additional and/or greater responsibility. So it should also follow in CAP, since you have to have progressively more on-the-job experience to promote. We'll always have people who topped out who hang around. (Heck, I was one of those people for a short time, a light colonel back in a squadron he commanded before he left for higher echelons.) The critical question to ask yourself, as a commander for those folks: How are you utilizing their ability and expertise to advance your missions? If they're just sitting around sucking down coffee and telling old stories, you're not getting anything out of them. If you can't get them out of coffee-downing mode, it's time for them to occupy space elsewhere. They're not helping you, the unit or CAP as a whole.

[Storm Chaser]

Lieutenants giving orders that colonels follow is nothing new. Remember that grade and authority aren't always on the same track. For instance, when the president is aboard his airplane, who's the one giving the orders situational to flying the plane and passenger conduct/safety? Not the president — a bird colonel who pilots the plane. That colonel still salutes the president as his superior, but the colonel is responsible for everything on that bird.

Are you in the Air Force? I ask because there are better examples that the one provided. I'm pretty sure the pilot would comply with any order given by the president as long as it was safe and legal, but why would the president need to give particular orders to the pilot other than a change of destination or a request to get there at a particular time? Now, in the Air Force, the aircraft commander (i.e. pilot) is in command of the aircraft and flight even if he/she has other crew members who otherwise outrank him/her. For example, the pilot may be a Capt and the navigator a Lt Col. The aircraft commander or PIC is still in charge. That said, that's an operational command based on qualification, not different from a CAP Capt who is the IC, while Majs or Lt Cols may have other ICS positions under his/her command.

In the Air Force, or other similar organizations, it's not usual for officers of higher grades to be assigned to members of lower grades. And even when that happens within a functional organization, the officers of higher grade report and are rated (evaluated) by someone of equal or higher grade outside of that functional organization. A Capt would never be put in command of a squadron while several Majs and Lt Cols report to him/her. But that's the Air Force and CAP is different.

Making up "new" even more confusing "grades" is not a fix.

This situation will never be fixed until grade is either wholly provisional, or CAP adopts an "up or out" philosophy.

There's simply no other way to fix it as long as members are allowed to ascend and then later descend.

Agree. The whole structure would have to change and that's unlikely. However, there are things that we can do to improve the situation. For example, not all Lt Cols in CAP are created equal, meaning that while some specialty tracks require wing assignments and several years to achieve a Master rating, others can be done in half the time while never leaving the squadron. Then you have military and special skills appointments. Why should someone get an advanced appointment or promotion in CAP just to be the "Snack Officer"?

[SarDragon]

Your proposal... is still a demotion.

The exes... are still demoted.

And the captains... will still be seen as making coffee for the indians.

But wait! Is making coffee a problem? If I like coffee, I will make it for everyone just so I can get a cup or two. No problem, whether it is for the good of everyone or out of a selfish desire.

If I don't like coffee... I will not make it for me nor anyone else!

Here's another take on the coffee - taking care of your folks. If I'm heading out of a work session to get a caffeine fix, I'll ask if anyone else needs one. It's also called being polite.

Amen, brutha!

[lordmonar]

Making up "new" even more confusing "grades" is not a fix.

This situation will never be fixed until grade is either wholly provisional, or CAP adopts an "up or out" philosophy.

There's simply no other way to fix it as long as members are allowed to ascend and then later descend.

In the rare occasion that I agree with Eclipse....I agree +100!

The only "fix" to this supposed problem is either temporary ranks (which I am not necessarily against) or to boot those officers not holding a position commensurate with their rank.

Edit...Thanks Dave

[riffraff]

I've always wondered why CAP doesn't just use the warrant officer ranks for senior members not in command or staff positions? The ranks still exist (unused) in USAF hierarchy and WO1 thru CWO5 certainly would provide instant recognition of tenure/qualifications and side-step the confusion of higher ranks subordinate to junior-ranked commanders.

Use the O-ranks for command/staff slots -- and yes, you give up the rank and revert back to your WO rank unless you remain in command/staff position.

Use a CAP-specific version of the AF commanders badge to denote prior command service, for those compelled to display their former status.

[rmutchler]

Use a CAP-specific version of the AF commanders badge to denote prior command service, for those compelled to display their former status.

This is already in the new 39-1 draft

[RiverAux]

You can go full Coast Guard Aux and have a past officer device that could be used for anyone holding a rank based on either past command or staff experience.  Personally, although I'm entitled to wear one I haven't bought it yet and am not even sure what it looks like, so I'm not sure that it would "solve" anything if we're worried about the perceptions of non-members.

[Panache]

I still think the solution is two tracks:  you hold a permanent warrant officer grade to shows your level of professional development (WO1=Level 1, CWO2=Level 2, etc...) and the "commissioned" officer grades will be reserved for temporary use for those holding specific command or staff positions.

[Eclipse]

Use a CAP-specific version of the AF commanders badge to denote prior command service, for those compelled to display their former status.

This is already in the new 39-1 draft

One which violates 900-2 and the respective AFI, though no one seems to actually care.

[lordmonar]

Use a CAP-specific version of the AF commanders badge to denote prior command service, for those compelled to display their former status.

This is already in the new 39-1 draft

One which violates 900-2 and the respective AFI, though no one seems to actually care.

How is it a violation of 900-2?

[Eclipse]

CAPR 900-2 Dec 2012
"The revised CAPR 900-2 includes the use of the Civil Air Patrol logo and Civil Air Patrol command emblem (Section A).
Removes general information on the Air Force "Hap Arnold" symbol and rescinds the use of the Air Force "Hap Arnold"
symbol cradled with CAP organizational emblems. "

It also has the wrong MAJCOM.

[Mitchell 1969]

By the way, building up on the Major's response.

A leader should feed his team first, then eat.

This cannot be clearer than a story I heard from a retired Army Command Sergeant.

He told me he was waiting in line at a mess hall with his soldiers who had just come from the field. Some officers tried to cut the line in front of them. He squared away those officers...

So a Colonel cooking for an Lt... is not a bad idea after all...

The whole "feed the horses before the men and feed the men before the officers" thing gets overblown and is often misunderstood in CAP.

The intent is to make sure that feeding is arranged. In fact, I've seen that priority get ignored too often. But there is nothing saintly in having all of the sergeants and officers gather at the end of a chow line, stuffing cadets in front of them. In fact, it can be counterproductive. If cadets eat first, they finish first - wasting time while they wait for the NCOs and officers to finish.

We adopted simple rules for this at encampment years ago. Either flight sergeant or flight commander goes first, the other goes last, for each flight. That way, somebody is in charge of the first finishers as they exit the mess hall while somebody else makes sure the entire flight gets through the line. Staff officers, squadron commanders, tactical officers could get in line anytime as long as they did not break up a flight and as long as they were 4 or less.

Worked fine. Everybody ate. Everybody was led.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I still think the solution is two tracks:  you hold a permanent warrant officer grade to shows your level of professional development (WO1=Level 1, CWO2=Level 2, etc...) and the "commissioned" officer grades will be reserved for temporary use for those holding specific command or staff positions.

I have always liked that idea.  I would rather finish my CAP career as a CWO-5 who has actually accomplished something than the Stabshauptmann I am right now and will be probably for the remainder of my career because I don't have the "right" personality for command/Group/Wing level positions.

I would right now gladly hand over my Captain's bars and start at the bottom as a WO-1 and stay a WO.

I also think it would take a lot of the politics out of promotions.

However, for that reason alone, it will never happen.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Are you in the Air Force? I ask because there are better examples that the one provided. I'm pretty sure the pilot would comply with any order given by the president as long as it was safe and legal, but why would the president need to give particular orders to the pilot other than a change of destination or a request to get there at a particular time? Now, in the Air Force, the aircraft commander (i.e. pilot) is in command of the aircraft and flight even if he/she has other crew members who otherwise outrank him/her. For example, the pilot may be a Capt and the navigator a Lt Col. The aircraft commander or PIC is still in charge. That said, that's an operational command based on qualification, not different from a CAP Capt who is the IC, while Majs or Lt Cols may have other ICS positions under his/her command.

In the Air Force, or other similar organizations, it's not usual for officers of higher grades to be assigned to members of lower grades. And even when that happens within a functional organization, the officers of higher grade report and are rated (evaluated) by someone of equal or higher grade outside of that functional organization. A Capt would never be put in command of a squadron while several Majs and Lt Cols report to him/her. But that's the Air Force and CAP is different.

No, bu 30 years in CAP — beginning as a cadet — and while my example is admittedly weak, it pushed forward the principle that when grade-level seniority is disparate from operational seniority, we need to remember where the split is and how it works. We agree, but I'm sure others have better examples.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I am sure that some of these Lt. Col. Coffeedrinkers - the ones who have climbed the ladder through the ranks - have had so many different staff/command positions that by the time they reach that point in their CAP career they believe they have earned the right to take it easy.

I remember my first Squadron CC, who later became a Wing CC.  When he got his Gill Robb Wilson, after spending virtually all his life in CAP as a cadet and senior, said "My training is basically done now."

However, he went on to become PD officer for Region before (I believe) retiring.

This brings an image to mind...about 20 years ago I attended a Wing training function and the coffee was being poured and served by the Wing CC.

[Panache]

Others in here are saying "Oh, it's not a problem" or "it's a solution in search of a problem."

I disagree.

I believe this is one of the factors that hinders us as an organization relating to the outside world.  Not the main factor, of course, but still something that cripples us.

As the old saying goes, "You only get one chance to make a first impression."

We wail and gnash our teeth at how other organizations don't take us "seriously".  What do you think that first impression is going to be with the leaders of an outside organization when they see a Lt. Colonel serving coffee and cake?  Sure, to us it makes sense.  But to everybody else, it just screams "dysfunctional".

"It's okay once we explain it to them", I hear.  Okay, fine, but what makes you think they care?  They really don't have much concern about our internal organization structure.  But the impression has already been made: "they're so screwed up that they have the people in charge making the coffee and emptying out the trash bins."

But we, as an organization, are too committed at clinging onto our broken paradigms and resistant to change.  It'll be the death of us.

[lordmonar]

yes...but look at what the OP said.

He wanted to make a change...but no demotions, no temporary rank.   So the "solution" was new fake rank....

[Panache]

yes...but look at what the OP said.

He wanted to make a change...but no demotions, no temporary rank.   So the "solution" was new fake rank....

Yeah, I have to agree with you lordmonar.  I don't think that would work.

[SarDragon]

Others in here are saying "Oh, it's not a problem" or "it's a solution in search of a problem."

I disagree.

I believe this is one of the factors that hinders us as an organization relating to the outside world.  Not the main factor, of course, but still something that cripples us.

As the old saying goes, "You only get one chance to make a first impression."

We wail and gnash our teeth at how other organizations don't take us "seriously".  What do you think that first impression is going to be with the leaders of an outside organization when they see a Lt. Colonel serving coffee and cake?  Sure, to us it makes sense.  But to everybody else, it just screams "dysfunctional".

"It's okay once we explain it to them", I hear.  Okay, fine, but what makes you think they care?  They really don't have much concern about our internal organization structure.  But the impression has already been made: "they're so screwed up that they have the people in charge making the coffee and emptying out the trash bins."

But we, as an organization, are too committed at clinging onto our broken paradigms and resistant to change.  It'll be the death of us.

I would hazard a guess that the outsiders most "bothered" by this are people who get paid. We are a volunteer organization. As such, our hierarchy is, in many cases, very fluid. If something needs to be done, someone who knows how, steps up, and does it, regardless of grade or position. This is especially true for those "jobs" that have no official place on the org chart.

A few months ago, I was at a SAREX, and couldn't fly. The comm area was adequately filled, so I ended up being the duty driver, as a major, since I had the best vehicle available (a Suburban) for ferrying folks out on the flight line. No big deal.