I don't personally have an issue with it, although some people on CAPTalk and outside organizations do, with having a Squadron run by a Captain with several Lt. Colonels hanging around, making the coffee, etc.
I don't like the idea of temporary ranks based on job title, with demotion when that job ends. It seems unkind to demote people after good service, and will make it more likely that people will be kept in positions past their prime because Commanders don't want to have Major Niceguy be demoted to 1st Lt after being transferred out of Wing Staff.
My proposal mimics that of my local Fire Department (which is all volunteer). Each of the fire houses has 2 Lieutenants and a Captain. The department as a whole has 1 Chief, 1 First Assistant Chief, and 1 Second Assistant Chiefs. The Chiefs serve 2 year terms and then the one below him moves up a notch (so First becomes Chief, Second Becomes First). Lower Officers I believe also serve 2 year terms. I believe the Chiefs are generally elected from the various Captains. Going from Lt to Capt or Capt to Chief is by no means automatic. Once your term as Lt, Capt, or Chief is over, if you aren't selected/elected (or decline) to move up, you become an "Ex-[Officer]". You keep your insignia but add a small blue "Ex" insignia on it. You no longer have the operational control of your former rank, but your prior service is still acknowledged. Ex's are still active in their Companies, but are the same as regular Firefighters.
So, under my proposal, rank would be commensurate with job title (Squadron Commanders are Capt, staff are Lts., Group CC's Majors, Group Staff Captains, etc). Unless you promote up, once your service at a certain level is done, you will become an Ex-Major (or whatever), and go be reassigned back to a lower level. Should you move up to a higher rank again, you can take the "Ex" off. I suppose it could also work to give members the choice of being an Ex, or taking the lower grade (some people might prefer "Captain" to "Ex-Major".
No weirdness of a Captain giving orders to a Major, no disgrace at being demoted, and hopefully more people are happy.
There's no weirdness overall now...
Who's unhappy with the way it is?
Another comparison of mis-matched things. Our system isn't like the fire house.
What's wrong with the way it is? It is what it is. We don't have an up or out thing, we have a totally different structure where grade and position don't necessarily align. Once you get over that, the rest is easy.
Our grade is a visual symbol of our professional development levels. If you walk into a building and need to find the squadron commander, just ask. People keep looking at rank in CAP like its rank in the US military. Its not. Not even close. I was a Sq CC as a 1Lt and not once did it ever create an issue. SM->LTC is a PD based rewards system. Col, BGen and Maj Gen are position based.
Although they do get to keep them when they are done don't they? Side bar..... does the National and Vice CCs get to keep their ranks when they are done?
It's a solution looking for a problem. All the guys in my unit who outrank the commander have no issues at all with that fact. He's the boss, and everyone supports him. And we have no "coffee fetching" going on. Everyone usually gets their own.
Out system, while not perfect, is a compromise between competing systems and ideas.
We don't want to do temporary ranks based on positions.
We don't have a way to move excess Lt Cols and we don't want to just force them out.
And we don't want to just invent a whole new ranks system (EX-LT Col is a new rank....and we would have to figure out he falls in the chain of protocol).
So....we stick with the kind of weird.....but easily explained.....situation where a Lt could be bossing a Col.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 31, 2014, 05:46:25 AM
Although they do get to keep them when they are done don't they? Side bar..... does the National and Vice CCs get to keep their ranks when they are done?
Generally, yes. No pun intended.
Plus.....the really really cool part of it is.....if Maj New Guy has a problem with being commanded by a mere Lt.......I would be typing the CAPF 27 sooooo fast my Selectric would catch fire. >:D
Hey, Pat, why a CAPF 27? Make the Major the commander?
How does your proposal handle...
Group/Wing staff officers who help out at the local squadron?
Squadron staff officers with an ADY to Group/Wing?
Encampment or other time-bound activities that have separate commanders?
Or perhaps the biggest pool of people - the ones that are content with the structure as it exists today?
Really. What pressing organizational dysfunction is getting solved here?
Your proposal... is still a demotion.
The exes... are still demoted.
And the captains... will still be seen as making coffee for the indians.
But wait! Is making coffee a problem? If I like coffee, I will make it for everyone just so I can get a cup or two. No problem, whether it is for the good of everyone or out of a selfish desire.
If I don't like coffee... I will not make it for me nor anyone else!
;D
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 31, 2014, 10:55:51 AM
Your proposal... is still a demotion.
The exes... are still demoted.
And the captains... will still be seen as making coffee for the indians.
But wait! Is making coffee a problem? If I like coffee, I will make it for everyone just so I can get a cup or two. No problem, whether it is for the good of everyone or out of a selfish desire.
If I don't like coffee... I will not make it for me nor anyone else!
;D
Here's another take on the coffee - taking care of your folks. If I'm heading out of a work session to get a caffeine fix, I'll ask if anyone else needs one. It's also called being polite.
By the way, building up on the Major's response.
A leader should feed his team first, then eat.
This cannot be clearer than a story I heard from a retired Army Command Sergeant.
He told me he was waiting in line at a mess hall with his soldiers who had just come from the field. Some officers tried to cut the line in front of them. He squared away those officers...
So a Colonel cooking for an Lt... is not a bad idea after all...
Quote from: SarDragon on May 31, 2014, 07:46:33 AM
Hey, Pat, why a CAPF 27? Make the Major the commander?
You use a 27 do that. :)
Quote from: SarDragon on May 31, 2014, 05:52:10 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 31, 2014, 05:46:25 AM
Although they do get to keep them when they are done don't they? Side bar..... does the National and Vice CCs get to keep their ranks when they are done?
Generally, yes. No pun intended.
The BofG has one year following their leaving the job to make the grade permenant , if not (and it has happened) they revert to their last permenant grade.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 31, 2014, 01:04:20 PM
By the way, building up on the Major's response.
A leader should feed his team first, then eat.
This cannot be clearer than a story I heard from a retired Army Command Sergeant.
He told me he was waiting in line at a mess hall with his soldiers who had just come from the field. Some officers tried to cut the line in front of them. He squared away those officers...
So a Colonel cooking for an Lt... is not a bad idea after all...
When I was in the grunts, usually what was done was the officers or senior enlisted would wait until their unit of responsibility was fed. The 1Lt Platoon commander ate last out of his platoon. Quite honestly, I never saw the company commander or anyone to far up the food chain standing in the chow line out in the field. But as a matter of practicality, my Plt Commander waiting until all 600 enlisted Marines ate before he could jump in could tie a platoon up for a couple hours waiting for the boss to finish up. Where that really comes in to play in a leadership role is making sure all of your people are fed in a case where there may not be enough to go around and is more of a visual example of putting their needs before yours. In a real leadership role, there are more important ways to make this happen. This thing about eating last based on rank seems to be something that is harped on and touted as a leadership trait in places where not much is called upon in the way of "leadership". Its really a loosely used, and sometimes irresponsibly used leadership example. As a young PFC, Cpl and even when I was a Sgt, it wasn't anything that really impressed anyone I knew. Granted, my Plt Commander and Plt Sgt ate last but there were times they jumped up front because they had planning meeting to go to or had other duties. They grabbed chow and bailed. In 8 years as a grunt I don't recall it ever coming up as an issue. In a CAP context, the Wing Commander standing at the end of the line at Sizzler isn't really the intent of the scenario. In the case of a real world application, things will be rationed out. I for one, do not want my platoon commander going without food or water when he has the extra burden of also being the guy in command. But in CAP.... if you think the LTC is a hero because he is at the back of the line at McDonalds during the post squadron after-meeting, no problem.
This was a proposal to deal with an issue some have brought up. I'm fine with the system as it is, I posted this more as food for thought. Like it, don't like it, it's all the same to me.
Almost every organization that uses military-style grade/rank insignias, do so to denote authority and/or responsibility. CAP, for the most part, does not. In CAP, grades denote professional development progression and service. That can cause confusion among those not familiar with CAP grade structure. The fact that this issue continues to be brought up and discussed is indicative that many view it as a problem or, at a minimum, as confusing and/or an annoyance.
Lieutenants giving orders that colonels follow is nothing new. Remember that grade and authority aren't always on the same track. For instance, when the president is aboard his airplane, who's the one giving the orders situational to flying the plane and passenger conduct/safety? Not the president — a bird colonel who pilots the plane. That colonel still salutes the president as his superior, but the colonel is responsible for everything on that bird.
In CAP, if a captain has a gaggle of light colonels in his unit, those colonels are still superiors but must defer to his authority as the commander. Salutes are based on grade, but order is based on authority.
How many times does this conversation have to happen in CAP? It's either that or a uniform thread. There's so much more to CAP than all that, folks!
Making up "new" even more confusing "grades" is not a fix.
This situation will never be fixed until grade is either wholly provisional, or CAP adopts an "up or out" philosophy.
There's simply no other way to fix it as long as members are allowed to ascend and then later descend.
Typically, grade is accorded based on additional and/or greater responsibility. So it should also follow in CAP, since you have to have progressively more on-the-job experience to promote. We'll always have people who topped out who hang around. (Heck, I was one of those people for a short time, a light colonel back in a squadron he commanded before he left for higher echelons.) The critical question to ask yourself, as a commander for those folks: How are you utilizing their ability and expertise to advance your missions? If they're just sitting around sucking down coffee and telling old stories, you're not getting anything out of them. If you can't get them out of coffee-downing mode, it's time for them to occupy space elsewhere. They're not helping you, the unit or CAP as a whole.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on May 31, 2014, 10:17:15 PM
Lieutenants giving orders that colonels follow is nothing new. Remember that grade and authority aren't always on the same track. For instance, when the president is aboard his airplane, who's the one giving the orders situational to flying the plane and passenger conduct/safety? Not the president — a bird colonel who pilots the plane. That colonel still salutes the president as his superior, but the colonel is responsible for everything on that bird.
Are you in the Air Force? I ask because there are better examples that the one provided. I'm pretty sure the pilot would comply with any order given by the president as long as it was safe and legal, but why would the president need to give particular orders to the pilot other than a change of destination or a request to get there at a particular time? Now, in the Air Force, the aircraft commander (i.e. pilot) is in command of the aircraft and flight even if he/she has other crew members who otherwise outrank him/her. For example, the pilot may be a Capt and the navigator a Lt Col. The aircraft commander or PIC is still in charge. That said, that's an operational command based on qualification, not different from a CAP Capt who is the IC, while Majs or Lt Cols may have other ICS positions under his/her command.
In the Air Force, or other similar organizations, it's not usual for officers of higher grades to be assigned to members of lower grades. And even when that happens within a functional organization, the officers of higher grade report and are rated (evaluated) by someone of equal or higher grade outside of that functional organization. A Capt would never be put in command of a squadron while several Majs and Lt Cols report to him/her. But that's the Air Force and CAP is different.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 31, 2014, 10:24:05 PM
Making up "new" even more confusing "grades" is not a fix.
This situation will never be fixed until grade is either wholly provisional, or CAP adopts an "up or out" philosophy.
There's simply no other way to fix it as long as members are allowed to ascend and then later descend.
Agree. The whole structure would have to change and that's unlikely. However, there are things that we can do to improve the situation. For example, not all Lt Cols in CAP are created equal, meaning that while some specialty tracks require wing assignments and several years to achieve a Master rating, others can be done in half the time while never leaving the squadron. Then you have military and special skills appointments. Why should someone get an advanced appointment or promotion in CAP just to be the "Snack Officer"?
Quote from: arajca on May 31, 2014, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 31, 2014, 10:55:51 AM
Your proposal... is still a demotion.
The exes... are still demoted.
And the captains... will still be seen as making coffee for the indians.
But wait! Is making coffee a problem? If I like coffee, I will make it for everyone just so I can get a cup or two. No problem, whether it is for the good of everyone or out of a selfish desire.
If I don't like coffee... I will not make it for me nor anyone else!
;D
Here's another take on the coffee - taking care of your folks. If I'm heading out of a work session to get a caffeine fix, I'll ask if anyone else needs one. It's also called being polite.
Amen, brutha!
Quote from: Eclipse on May 31, 2014, 10:24:05 PM
Making up "new" even more confusing "grades" is not a fix.
This situation will never be fixed until grade is either wholly provisional, or CAP adopts an "up or out" philosophy.
There's simply no other way to fix it as long as members are allowed to ascend and then later descend.
In the rare occasion that I agree with Eclipse....I agree +100!
The only "fix" to this supposed problem is either temporary ranks (which I am not necessarily against) or to boot those officers not holding a position commensurate with their rank.
Edit...Thanks Dave
I've always wondered why CAP doesn't just use the warrant officer ranks for senior members not in command or staff positions? The ranks still exist (unused) in USAF hierarchy and WO1 thru CWO5 certainly would provide instant recognition of tenure/qualifications and side-step the confusion of higher ranks subordinate to junior-ranked commanders.
Use the O-ranks for command/staff slots -- and yes, you give up the rank and revert back to your WO rank unless you remain in command/staff position.
Use a CAP-specific version of the AF commanders badge to denote prior command service, for those compelled to display their former status.
Quote from: riffraff on June 01, 2014, 11:00:16 AM
Use a CAP-specific version of the AF commanders badge to denote prior command service, for those compelled to display their former status.
This is already in the new 39-1 draft
You can go full Coast Guard Aux and have a past officer device that could be used for anyone holding a rank based on either past command or staff experience. Personally, although I'm entitled to wear one I haven't bought it yet and am not even sure what it looks like, so I'm not sure that it would "solve" anything if we're worried about the perceptions of non-members.
I still think the solution is two tracks: you hold a permanent warrant officer grade to shows your level of professional development (WO1=Level 1, CWO2=Level 2, etc...) and the "commissioned" officer grades will be reserved for temporary use for those holding specific command or staff positions.
Quote from: rmutchler on June 01, 2014, 12:04:43 PM
Quote from: riffraff on June 01, 2014, 11:00:16 AM
Use a CAP-specific version of the AF commanders badge to denote prior command service, for those compelled to display their former status.
This is already in the new 39-1 draft
One which violates 900-2 and the respective AFI, though no one seems to actually care.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 01, 2014, 04:21:46 PM
Quote from: rmutchler on June 01, 2014, 12:04:43 PM
Quote from: riffraff on June 01, 2014, 11:00:16 AM
Use a CAP-specific version of the AF commanders badge to denote prior command service, for those compelled to display their former status.
This is already in the new 39-1 draft
One which violates 900-2 and the respective AFI, though no one seems to actually care.
How is it a violation of 900-2?
Quote
CAPR 900-2 Dec 2012
"The revised CAPR 900-2 includes the use of the Civil Air Patrol logo and Civil Air Patrol command emblem (Section A).
Removes general information on the Air Force "Hap Arnold" symbol and rescinds the use of the Air Force "Hap Arnold"
symbol cradled with CAP organizational emblems. "
It also has the wrong MAJCOM.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 31, 2014, 01:04:20 PM
By the way, building up on the Major's response.
A leader should feed his team first, then eat.
This cannot be clearer than a story I heard from a retired Army Command Sergeant.
He told me he was waiting in line at a mess hall with his soldiers who had just come from the field. Some officers tried to cut the line in front of them. He squared away those officers...
So a Colonel cooking for an Lt... is not a bad idea after all...
The whole "feed the horses before the men and feed the men before the officers" thing gets overblown and is often misunderstood in CAP.
The intent is to make sure that feeding is arranged. In fact, I've seen that priority get ignored too often. But there is nothing saintly in having all of the sergeants and officers gather at the end of a chow line, stuffing cadets in front of them. In fact, it can be counterproductive. If cadets eat first, they finish first - wasting time while they wait for the NCOs and officers to finish.
We adopted simple rules for this at encampment years ago. Either flight sergeant or flight commander goes first, the other goes last, for each flight. That way, somebody is in charge of the first finishers as they exit the mess hall while somebody else makes sure the entire flight gets through the line. Staff officers, squadron commanders, tactical officers could get in line anytime as long as they did not break up a flight and as long as they were 4 or less.
Worked fine. Everybody ate. Everybody was led.
Quote from: Panache on June 01, 2014, 04:05:41 PM
I still think the solution is two tracks: you hold a permanent warrant officer grade to shows your level of professional development (WO1=Level 1, CWO2=Level 2, etc...) and the "commissioned" officer grades will be reserved for temporary use for those holding specific command or staff positions.
I have always liked that idea. I would rather finish my CAP career as a CWO-5 who has actually
accomplished something than the Stabshauptmann I am right now and will be probably for the remainder of my career because I don't have the "right" personality for command/Group/Wing level positions.
I would right now gladly hand over my Captain's bars and start at the bottom as a WO-1 and
stay a WO.
I also think it would take a lot of the politics out of promotions.
However, for that reason alone, it will never happen.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 31, 2014, 11:17:51 PM
Are you in the Air Force? I ask because there are better examples that the one provided. I'm pretty sure the pilot would comply with any order given by the president as long as it was safe and legal, but why would the president need to give particular orders to the pilot other than a change of destination or a request to get there at a particular time? Now, in the Air Force, the aircraft commander (i.e. pilot) is in command of the aircraft and flight even if he/she has other crew members who otherwise outrank him/her. For example, the pilot may be a Capt and the navigator a Lt Col. The aircraft commander or PIC is still in charge. That said, that's an operational command based on qualification, not different from a CAP Capt who is the IC, while Majs or Lt Cols may have other ICS positions under his/her command.
In the Air Force, or other similar organizations, it's not usual for officers of higher grades to be assigned to members of lower grades. And even when that happens within a functional organization, the officers of higher grade report and are rated (evaluated) by someone of equal or higher grade outside of that functional organization. A Capt would never be put in command of a squadron while several Majs and Lt Cols report to him/her. But that's the Air Force and CAP is different.
No, bu 30 years in CAP — beginning as a cadet — and while my example is admittedly weak, it pushed forward the principle that when grade-level seniority is disparate from operational seniority, we need to remember where the split is and how it works. We agree, but I'm sure others have better examples.
I am sure that some of these Lt. Col. Coffeedrinkers - the ones who have climbed the ladder through the ranks - have had so many different staff/command positions that by the time they reach that point in their CAP career they believe they have earned the right to take it easy.
I remember my first Squadron CC, who later became a Wing CC. When he got his Gill Robb Wilson, after spending virtually all his life in CAP as a cadet and senior, said "My training is basically done now."
However, he went on to become PD officer for Region before (I believe) retiring.
This brings an image to mind...about 20 years ago I attended a Wing training function and the coffee was being poured and served by the Wing CC.
Others in here are saying "Oh, it's not a problem" or "it's a solution in search of a problem."
I disagree.
I believe this is one of the factors that hinders us as an organization relating to the outside world. Not the main factor, of course, but still something that cripples us.
As the old saying goes, "You only get one chance to make a first impression."
We wail and gnash our teeth at how other organizations don't take us "seriously". What do you think that first impression is going to be with the leaders of an outside organization when they see a Lt. Colonel serving coffee and cake? Sure, to us it makes sense. But to everybody else, it just screams "dysfunctional".
"It's okay once we explain it to them", I hear. Okay, fine, but what makes you think they care? They really don't have much concern about our internal organization structure. But the impression has already been made: "they're so screwed up that they have the people in charge making the coffee and emptying out the trash bins."
But we, as an organization, are too committed at clinging onto our broken paradigms and resistant to change. It'll be the death of us.
yes...but look at what the OP said.
He wanted to make a change...but no demotions, no temporary rank. So the "solution" was new fake rank....
Quote from: lordmonar on June 03, 2014, 04:20:21 AM
yes...but look at what the OP said.
He wanted to make a change...but no demotions, no temporary rank. So the "solution" was new fake rank....
Yeah, I have to agree with you lordmonar. I don't think that would work.
Quote from: Panache on June 03, 2014, 03:38:02 AM
Others in here are saying "Oh, it's not a problem" or "it's a solution in search of a problem."
I disagree.
I believe this is one of the factors that hinders us as an organization relating to the outside world. Not the main factor, of course, but still something that cripples us.
As the old saying goes, "You only get one chance to make a first impression."
We wail and gnash our teeth at how other organizations don't take us "seriously". What do you think that first impression is going to be with the leaders of an outside organization when they see a Lt. Colonel serving coffee and cake? Sure, to us it makes sense. But to everybody else, it just screams "dysfunctional".
"It's okay once we explain it to them", I hear. Okay, fine, but what makes you think they care? They really don't have much concern about our internal organization structure. But the impression has already been made: "they're so screwed up that they have the people in charge making the coffee and emptying out the trash bins."
But we, as an organization, are too committed at clinging onto our broken paradigms and resistant to change. It'll be the death of us.
I would hazard a guess that the outsiders most "bothered" by this are people who get paid. We are a volunteer organization. As such, our hierarchy is, in many cases, very fluid. If something needs to be done, someone who knows how, steps up, and does it, regardless of grade or position. This is especially true for those "jobs" that have no official place on the org chart.
A few months ago, I was at a SAREX, and couldn't fly. The comm area was adequately filled, so I ended up being the duty driver, as a major, since I had the best vehicle available (a Suburban) for ferrying folks out on the flight line. No big deal.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 03, 2014, 05:33:18 AM
I would hazard a guess that the outsiders most "bothered" by this are people who get paid.
Probably a wise guess. But if we want to be seen as viable (especially in ES / SAR), these are the people we need to interact with.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 03, 2014, 05:33:18 AM
We are a volunteer organization. As such, our hierarchy is, in many cases, very fluid. If something needs to be done, someone who knows how, steps up, and does it, regardless of grade or position. This is especially true for those "jobs" that have no official place on the org chart.
And I agree. It's not that big deal... you do what needs to be done.
But I'm talking about how we're perceived by other agencies. Like it or not, this perception will have a pretty big impact on us. Unless we just want to get out of the ES/SAR business (and that's a topic for another thread), we must take that into account.
I'm sure that this will be an unpopular suggestion, but if our rank structure really causes that much trouble with the ES community, the easiest solution is to just stop wearing rank insignia while on actual missions.
As an added bonus, this might be a way to convince Ma Blue to let us wear removable metal grade insignia on our field uniforms.
Quote from: Panache on June 03, 2014, 03:38:02 AM
We wail and gnash our teeth at how other organizations don't take us "seriously". What do you think that first impression is going to be with the leaders of an outside organization when they see a Lt. Colonel serving coffee and cake? Sure, to us it makes sense. But to everybody else, it just screams "dysfunctional".
You see a Lt Col serving coffee to a Capt as an issue with rank. I see it as a problem of "Why can't the Capt get his own coffee?"
We don't need coffee-servers at all, whether they be C/A1Cs or Maj Gen. Get up and get your own coffee.
I made IC as a 1st Lt. I had no problem giving direction to Lt Cols, and they had no problem taking directions from me. I was grateful to have their experience on my staff, and they were grateful someone else was responsible for all the BS paperwork at the end of the mission. Win-Win.
I work in public schools. Just this morning I saw a principal, the school director, opening mail. If I agreed with the premise being discussed here, I would have screamed "this school is dysfunctional, why does the Principal opening mail, she should have a mail person!"
I am pretty sure some of you are creating a storm in a cup of water. Have you ever been told "Cols bringing coffee to Lts is a problem?" If not, don't create a problem!
The only people who get worked up about CAPs ranking system are CAP members. Nobody else cares. You could be a CAP 4 star general, nobody in EMS, LE, fire or other SAR agency cares. Our ranks by themselves don't hold any authority with them. Same in LE. You could be the police chief of an agency. If I do t work for you, it makes no difference to me who you are. If you are in charge based on an ICS system or placed in command over me by one of MY bosses, then that's different. Claiming our ranks are confusing to outside agencies is few and far between and I dont think it happens as often or as serious as people claim. Just because somebody showed up at your meeting and was surprised the 1Lt was in charge instead of the LTC hardly constitutes an issue.
Clearly you haven't done a tour of duty at the Pentagon. There are plenty of O-4s, O-5s, and O-6s fetching coffee, flipping charts, answering phones, etc.
In all of my years of service in uniform...USN, ANG, USAF, INS, CBP, ICE, CGAUX...I've never seen a group of individuals more obsessively concerned about what someone wears on thier collar/sleeve than some of the members of CAP.
When I was E-5 in the Navy I supervised two E-6s for almost an entire year. Likewise, as an E-5 in the ANG I had an E-6 working for me. As a GS-7 in CBP there were numerous occassions where I was assigned as the acting supervisor for a shift that had several GS-9s and GS-11s working it.
Quote from: MHC5096 on June 03, 2014, 02:25:15 PM
Clearly you haven't done a tour of duty at the Pentagon. There are plenty of O-4s, O-5s, and O-6s fetching coffee, flipping charts, answering phones, etc.
Many years ago I remember seeing the late General Omar Bradley on some sort of awards TV thing. He had a full Colonel pushing his wheelchair.
Quote from: MHC5096 on June 03, 2014, 02:25:15 PM
In all of my years of service in uniform...USN, ANG, USAF, INS, CBP, ICE, CGAUX...I've never seen a group of individuals more obsessively concerned about what someone wears on thier collar/sleeve than some of the members of CAP.
I think a lot of that comes from the fiascos in the early '90s that got our metal rank taken from us and the berry boards imposed. I think it caused a bit of an "identity crisis" that we have never fully resolved.
Quote from: MHC5096 on June 03, 2014, 02:25:15 PM
When I was E-5 in the Navy I supervised two E-6s for almost an entire year. Likewise, as an E-5 in the ANG I had an E-6 working for me. As a GS-7 in CBP there were numerous occassions where I was assigned as the acting supervisor for a shift that had several GS-9s and GS-11s working it.
CBP insignia confuses the heck out of me. They have people who look like warrant officers, majors, colonels...but who aren't.
Eh, from what I hear it's not unusual for a Captain to bring coffee and donuts to his Admiral boss at the Pentagon.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:36:23 PM
Quote from: MHC5096 on June 03, 2014, 02:25:15 PM
In all of my years of service in uniform...USN, ANG, USAF, INS, CBP, ICE, CGAUX...I've never seen a group of individuals more obsessively concerned about what someone wears on thier collar/sleeve than some of the members of CAP.
I think a lot of that comes from the fiascos in the early '90s that got our metal rank taken from us and the berry boards imposed. I think it caused a bit of an "identity crisis" that we have never fully resolved.
It's because of the poor and inconsistent initial training, coupled with the relative rarity of military contact, sprinkled with the general apathy and misunderstanding of the military in this country and the cherry being the understandable apathy of the military services towards CAP (i.e. not my problem, don't care).
Our members aren't told where we exist in the Grande Scheme, or they operate under wive's tales and media-based information (i.e. movies, etc.).
The garnish is a few bad actors who help establish an undeserved reputation.
My personal experience has been wholly positive, whether dealing with Navy Captains, Marine Majors, and lots of Chiefs, Petty Officers, and even a Gunny at one point, not to mention plenty of Officers and NCOs from the USAF and Guard. These people have / had work to do and don't really care
about anything but getting it done.
With that said, there is a fair amount of anecdoatal evidence and stories that in many case our "brothers in blue" tend to be our
harshest critics, whether deserved or not, and in many cases "just because they can".
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 03, 2014, 04:45:41 PM
Eh, from what I hear it's not unusual for a Captain to bring coffee and donuts to his Admiral boss at the Pentagon.
Right, but in CAP, the
Admiral might be emptying the donut boxes from the Captain's trash.
Eclipse, I agree with many of the things you say. Back when I had Level I ('93) I had it real and closed-book with the understanding that I would not get my 2nd Lt until I passed it. Now in too many cases it's just handed to a new member who shows up for six months.
I don't believe the apathy (or in too many cases, antipathy) of military services toward CAP is understandable, especially not with the Air Force. We are their Auxiliary, and they need to either recognise that or terminate the relationship.
With that said, there is a fair amount of anecdoatal evidence and stories that in many case our "brothers in blue" tend to be our harshest critics, whether deserved or not, and in many cases "just because they can".
That is my experience, and that "harshest criticism" has overwhelmingly tended to come from either a complete lack of knowledge about us (nature abhors a vacuum), which is inexcusable (yes, for those who believe it's not the Air Force's job to educate Airmen about us, hier stehe ich and am not moving) or from apocryphal stories/rumours/bull[mess] in the Air Force Times, etc.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 03, 2014, 04:53:42 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 03, 2014, 04:45:41 PM
Eh, from what I hear it's not unusual for a Captain to bring coffee and donuts to his Admiral boss at the Pentagon.
Right, but in CAP, the Admiral might be emptying the donut boxes from the Captain's trash.
Heck, I'm an Admiral and I still fix the toilets at Wing HQ...
My Sheriffs Office has Lt's, Captains, Majors, Chief Warrant Officers, Colonels.... sometimes we have a LTC or two depending on what Sheriff is in office. Some sheriffs wear 4 stars, some wear 2, some where a collar device that says "SHERIFF" None of it is designed for outside agency recognition. It only applies to THIS agency. I think thats the mindset CAP needs. Stop worrying about what other entities might be thinking. because it applies to everyone. In public safety, EMS, LE.... nobodies rank means anything to anyone not with that particular agency.
Sure... if a Colonel from a neighboring agency approaches me, yes.... I know he's a big wig, Ill show him the respect he/she deserves, but they don't have the authority to do anything until one of my bosses directs me or places me under that persons command in a disaster or ICS type scenario. CAP is no different. Cop, Fire, EMS or SAR groups are all well aware of this because they live with it daily. Im not sure where CAP members are getting this idea that its a hang up for these other agencies when they deal with CAP because it isn't.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:36:23 PM
Many years ago I remember seeing the late General Omar Bradley on some sort of awards TV thing. He had a full Colonel pushing his wheelchair.
Well, Bradley was an active-duty O-11 at the time...basic equivalent to a butter-bar helping a bird-colonel out.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 03, 2014, 05:41:35 PM
My Sheriffs Office has Lt's, Captains, Majors, Chief Warrant Officers, Colonels.... sometimes we have a LTC or two depending on what Sheriff is in office. Some sheriffs wear 4 stars, some wear 2, some where a collar device that says "SHERIFF" None of it is designed for outside agency recognition. It only applies to THIS agency. I think thats the mindset CAP needs. Stop worrying about what other entities might be thinking. because it applies to everyone. In public safety, EMS, LE.... nobodies rank means anything to anyone not with that particular agency.
Sure... if a Colonel from a neighboring agency approaches me, yes.... I know he's a big wig, Ill show him the respect he/she deserves, but they don't have the authority to do anything until one of my bosses directs me or places me under that persons command in a disaster or ICS type scenario. CAP is no different. Cop, Fire, EMS or SAR groups are all well aware of this because they live with it daily. Im not sure where CAP members are getting this idea that its a hang up for these other agencies when they deal with CAP because it isn't.
:clap: +100
CAP Grade is CAP Grade and nothing else.
Quote from: NC Hokie on June 03, 2014, 11:25:01 AM
I'm sure that this will be an unpopular suggestion, but if our rank structure really causes that much trouble with the ES community, the easiest solution is to just stop wearing rank insignia while on actual missions.
As an added bonus, this might be a way to convince Ma Blue to let us wear removable metal grade insignia on our field uniforms.
I've been to plenty of inter-agency events. Not once did I ever hear a fire department IC complain about police wearing rank insignia or vice versa. Truth is, every member of an organization could come dressed dripping with the gold braid and feathers of an "Admiral of the Ocean Seas" and it wouldn't matter. All that counts is what box you're in on the ICS chart.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 03, 2014, 09:46:56 PMAll that counts is what box you're in on the ICS chart.
+1000
Back in the day it was an unwritten rule that the commander was always one grade above each member of the unit. I have seen a Major as intern wing commander. No problem with this except for those who want to find an issue with it.
That would mean that all past Wing CC's must move to NHQ, so their CC is above them. That might put a damper on the willingness to serve.. :)
Quote from: JeffDG on June 03, 2014, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:36:23 PM
Many years ago I remember seeing the late General Omar Bradley on some sort of awards TV thing. He had a full Colonel pushing his wheelchair.
Well, Bradley was an active-duty O-11 at the time...basic equivalent to a butter-bar helping a bird-colonel out.
The Colonel was his military Aide, (who due to the small print on all the five star promotions earned more than the General).
Quote from: NC Hokie on June 03, 2014, 11:25:01 AM
I'm sure that this will be an unpopular suggestion, but if our rank structure really causes that much trouble with the ES community, the easiest solution is to just stop wearing rank insignia while on actual missions.
California Wing does this already with their "Ground Team Uniform". No grade is worn for pretty much those reasons. Prevents conflicts between our Egos and the other ES organizations egos.
Quote from: PHall on June 04, 2014, 01:14:34 AMCalifornia Wing does this already with their "Ground Team Uniform". No grade is worn for pretty much those reasons. Prevents conflicts between our Egos and the other ES organizations egos.
If that is actually part of the reasoning, then someone, somewhere, needs to readjust or check their own egos.
That's really silly, and I bet a venti no other orgs in your wing have "special" uniforms just so they get to play with others and
not make people sad.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 04, 2014, 01:34:01 AM
Quote from: PHall on June 04, 2014, 01:14:34 AMCalifornia Wing does this already with their "Ground Team Uniform". No grade is worn for pretty much those reasons. Prevents conflicts between our Egos and the other ES organizations egos.
If that is actually part of the reasoning, then someone, somewhere, needs to readjust or check their own egos.
That's really silly, and I bet a venti no other orgs in your wing have "special" uniforms just so they get to play with others and
not make people sad.
Bob, it works in the conditions we have here in this state. Probably wouldn't work elsewhere. But that's what we have to deal with. meh...
^ If grade insignias are an issue in California, then how come this uniform is only worn by ground team members?
Quote from: PHall on June 04, 2014, 01:56:13 AMBob, it works in the conditions we have here in this state. Probably wouldn't work elsewhere. But that's what we have to deal with. meh...
Just keep it on the left coast.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 04, 2014, 01:59:12 AM
^ If grade insignias are an issue in California, then how come this uniform is only worn by ground team members?
Because we don't fly in the Sheriff's aircraft and they normally don't fly in ours.
Quote from: PHall on June 04, 2014, 02:48:40 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 04, 2014, 01:59:12 AM
^ If grade insignias are an issue in California, then how come this uniform is only worn by ground team members?
Because we don't fly in the Sheriff's aircraft and they normally don't fly in ours.
What about mission base? None of your other ES personnel interact with external agencies other than ground teams?
CAP grade means very little.
Quote from: JeffDG on June 03, 2014, 11:35:08 AM
Quote from: Panache on June 03, 2014, 03:38:02 AM
We wail and gnash our teeth at how other organizations don't take us "seriously". What do you think that first impression is going to be with the leaders of an outside organization when they see a Lt. Colonel serving coffee and cake? Sure, to us it makes sense. But to everybody else, it just screams "dysfunctional".
You see a Lt Col serving coffee to a Capt as an issue with rank. I see it as a problem of "Why can't the Capt get his own coffee?"
We don't need coffee-servers at all, whether they be C/A1Cs or Maj Gen. Get up and get your own coffee.
I made IC as a 1st Lt. I had no problem giving direction to Lt Cols, and they had no problem taking directions from me. I was grateful to have their experience on my staff, and they were grateful someone else was responsible for all the BS paperwork at the end of the mission. Win-Win.
I'm a pretty friendly kind of guy. If I'm somewhere (meeting, mission base, etc) and there are beverages available, I will usually ask the person/people next to me if they want anything, if I go for myself. It's just being polite, regardless of rank.
Quote from: PHall on June 04, 2014, 01:14:34 AM
Quote from: NC Hokie on June 03, 2014, 11:25:01 AM
I'm sure that this will be an unpopular suggestion, but if our rank structure really causes that much trouble with the ES community, the easiest solution is to just stop wearing rank insignia while on actual missions.
California Wing does this already with their "Ground Team Uniform". No grade is worn for pretty much those reasons. Prevents conflicts between our Egos and the other ES organizations egos.
I'm convinced that there is no actual reason and never has been. I'd put money on this being a legacy of a long-ago voiced personal opinion that was not, in fact, based on any operational need or any request/preference/wish on the part of any other agency.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 04, 2014, 05:21:25 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on June 03, 2014, 11:35:08 AM
Quote from: Panache on June 03, 2014, 03:38:02 AM
We wail and gnash our teeth at how other organizations don't take us "seriously". What do you think that first impression is going to be with the leaders of an outside organization when they see a Lt. Colonel serving coffee and cake? Sure, to us it makes sense. But to everybody else, it just screams "dysfunctional".
You see a Lt Col serving coffee to a Capt as an issue with rank. I see it as a problem of "Why can't the Capt get his own coffee?"
We don't need coffee-servers at all, whether they be C/A1Cs or Maj Gen. Get up and get your own coffee.
I made IC as a 1st Lt. I had no problem giving direction to Lt Cols, and they had no problem taking directions from me. I was grateful to have their experience on my staff, and they were grateful someone else was responsible for all the BS paperwork at the end of the mission. Win-Win.
I'm a pretty friendly kind of guy. If I'm somewhere (meeting, mission base, etc) and there are beverages available, I will usually ask the person/people next to me if they want anything, if I go for myself. It's just being polite, regardless of rank.
Courtesy and grabbing a drink for the guy next to you anyway is one thing. Having someone "serving" coffee is a different matter altogether.
Quote from: The14th on June 04, 2014, 03:46:39 AM
CAP grade means very little.
Very little? I think you are giving it to much credit. :)
Quote from: JeffDG on June 04, 2014, 11:28:43 AM
Courtesy and grabbing a drink for the guy next to you anyway is one thing. Having someone "serving" coffee is a different matter altogether.
I know a CAP Captain who is a Starbucks barista. I want
her making the coffee at my next CAP activity. Not some crusty Lt Col who's idea of "good coffee" is that sludge you got in the ol' mess hall drip machines.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 04, 2014, 02:49:05 PM
Quote from: The14th on June 04, 2014, 03:46:39 AM
CAP grade means very little.
Very little? I think you are giving it to much credit. :)
It sometimes means something.
At NAS Dallas in 1973, as a cadet officer, I was told to use the "officers and CPOs head" rather than the enlisted head. No real prestige, no real difference, but it was closer to the ops desk where I was waiting.
As a Major, I've been bumped up to field grade level visiting officers quarters. I have a sneaky feeling that all it meant was that I got two little wrapped soaps instead of one.
I'd be more inclined to believe that the reason the grade insignia is not on the caltrans uniform is because there was no way in heck it was going to get approved otherwise.
Someones cute pet project..
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 04, 2014, 03:32:33 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 04, 2014, 02:49:05 PM
Quote from: The14th on June 04, 2014, 03:46:39 AM
CAP grade means very little.
Very little? I think you are giving it to much credit. :)
It sometimes means something.
At NAS Dallas in 1973, as a cadet officer, I was told to use the "officers and CPOs head" rather than the enlisted head. No real prestige, no real difference, but it was closer to the ops desk where I was waiting.
As a Major, I've been bumped up to field grade level visiting officers quarters. I have a sneaky feeling that all it meant was that I got two little wrapped soaps instead of one.
You are correct. I shouldn't be so bold with my down playing it. The rank in CAP is a visual symbol of someones PD progression, can mean they bring a special skill to CAP (although you don't know that by looking at their rank) or can show that they have done their time and worked their way from SM to LTC and should be subject matter experts on CAP. Having been in the military, CAP and like many people here, having worked for several public safety agencies..... the rank issue is such a NON issue. It doesn't create any problems. And like someone above mentioned, I would really like to here a scenario where rank in CAP caused an issue with an outside agency beyond some general curiosity questions. And a National Commander getting a better room over a Colonel or something isn't what Im talking about.
Who needs a visual representation of someone else's PD? If they are doing their volunteer job well, who cares? This just proves my point even more about the grade being useless if THAT is what it's good for. Also, are the CAP NCOs any less the volunteers because JoeSchmo can't automatically tell what Level he's completed?
Quote from: JeffDG on June 04, 2014, 11:28:43 AM
Courtesy and grabbing a drink for the guy next to you anyway is one thing. Having someone "serving" coffee is a different matter altogether.
Frankly, in all my time in CAP, I've never seen anyone "serving" coffee. Where did you see this? Or is this another hypothetical problem looking for a solution.
I have certainly seen people making coffee, I even caught someone (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) running
the grounds >TWICE<.
He was threatened with termination if I ever caught that again...
Quote from: Eclipse on June 04, 2014, 07:44:13 PM
I have certainly seen people making coffee, I even caught someone (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) running
the grounds >TWICE<.
He was threatened with termination if I ever caught that again...
There are things that fall outside the progressive discipline policy...:D
Quote from: Eclipse on June 04, 2014, 07:44:13 PM
He was threatened with termination if I ever caught that again...
Prejudicial to good order and discipline.
I think we are missing the point here. Shouldn't cadets be the ones to bring us coffee? We could make it a staff position and issue a brown shoulder cord.
The Coffee Cord.. ;)
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/large/00000003738850_LRG.jpg)
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 05, 2014, 03:35:27 AM
I think we are missing the point here. Shouldn't cadets be the ones to bring us coffee? We could make it a staff position and issue a brown shoulder cord.
"Java Operations Officer".
Quote from: SarDragon on June 03, 2014, 05:33:18 AM
I would hazard a guess that the outsiders most "bothered" by this are people who get paid. We are a volunteer organization. As such, our hierarchy is, in many cases, very fluid. If something needs to be done, someone who knows how, steps up, and does it, regardless of grade or position. This is especially true for those "jobs" that have no official place on the org chart.
A few months ago, I was at a SAREX, and couldn't fly. The comm area was adequately filled, so I ended up being the duty driver, as a major, since I had the best vehicle available (a Suburban) for ferrying folks out on the flight line. No big deal.
I think almost no one is bothered by it outside of CAPTalk.
The last EPIRB hunt I was on, the van driver was a bird colonel (former wing CC), I tagged along as MRO (major, wing director of safety). The GTL, and thus the individual nominally in charge of the evolution, was a captain (the colonel's son), and the actual work was done by three cadets. At no point did anyone so much as gaze at us askance, and the earth did not open up and swallow us whole. Astonishing, I know.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 05, 2014, 03:35:27 AM
I think we are missing the point here. Shouldn't cadets be the ones to bring us coffee? We could make it a staff position and issue a brown shoulder cord.
Rob, I know you probably forgot the smilie, but as a former cadet, and long-time CP guy, I find that very unfunny. ;)
As a former cadet and long time CP guy I find it hilarious! :)
In most units; the "CSO" (Coffee service officer) is a highly coveted position. When, combined with the "DAO" rating (Donut aquistion officer), you have an individual, regardless of grade, we would find as irreplacable. ;D
Now, who has my chocolate creamer? LOL! >:D
Quote from: a2capt on June 05, 2014, 04:12:35 AM
The Coffee Cord.. ;)
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/large/00000003738850_LRG.jpg)
The orange looks right. Now we need a pink strand or 2 and it's perfect.
Quote from: a2capt on June 04, 2014, 03:44:18 PM
I'd be more inclined to believe that the reason the grade insignia is not on the caltrans uniform is because there was no way in heck it was going to get approved otherwise.
Someones cute pet project..
That could well be. But I remember it being sold as "'standard' SAR uniform" with a supposed "State OES" requirement" that rank/grade not be displayed because "it's too confusing."
I asked then and have asked since - Were these "requests" ever officially communicated in writing? Is there an actual OES policy about this? Or is this one or two of those guys with the "I don't have time for that 'Yessir Nossir military stuff" thinking who simply rumored and wished the orange shirt thing into existence?
As I posted earlier, I've never heard of fire or police personnel being asked to remove rank insignia in order to participate in multi-agency emergencies. Also, never heard of there being an actual instance of a CAP major pointing to oak leaves and trying to order a fire captain to do anything. (Same guy who spends his non ES time salute trolling at the BX, perhaps?)
"Someone's cute pet project" is where I'd place my bet, too.
Quote from: a2capt on June 05, 2014, 04:12:35 AM
The Coffee Cord.. ;)
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/large/00000003738850_LRG.jpg)
That is actually the "Decaf Coffee Cord," I believe.
Quote from: CAP_truth on June 03, 2014, 10:22:22 PM
Back in the day it was an unwritten rule that the commander was always one grade above each member of the unit. I have seen a Major as intern wing commander. No problem with this except for those who want to find an issue with it.
It was that way in my first unit
The first two commanders were Majors.
One got kicked upstairs to Wing IG and the other left CAP after her daughter graduated.
The Deputy CC got promoted to Major and assumed command. Not long afterward I got promoted to Captain and became Deputy CC. We had the best working relationship I have ever had with a commander...almost on a Picard/Riker level.
When I transferred a couple of years later (got married and moved) the commander of my new squadron was also a Captain. Before I left my CC said "you're up for Major soon...you might end up outranking your CC!" That didn't happen, but as I've expounded on that elsewhere I'll stop it there.
My new unit was where I found the as-then-unexperienced CAP phenomena:
-Three Lt. Col's who outranked the CC
-The senior squadron "uniform optional and we don't like to fly cadets" mentalities
Promotions were not even on the radar half the time there...just flying the airplane was.
Quote from: CyBorg on June 05, 2014, 06:01:05 PM
Quote from: CAP_truth on June 03, 2014, 10:22:22 PM
Back in the day it was an unwritten rule that the commander was always one grade above each member of the unit. I have seen a Major as intern wing commander. No problem with this except for those who want to find an issue with it.
It was that way in my first unit
The first two commanders were Majors.
One got kicked upstairs to Wing IG and the other left CAP after her daughter graduated.
The Deputy CC got promoted to Major and assumed command. Not long afterward I got promoted to Captain and became Deputy CC. We had the best working relationship I have ever had with a commander...almost on a Picard/Riker level.
When I transferred a couple of years later (got married and moved) the commander of my new squadron was also a Captain. Before I left my CC said "you're up for Major soon...you might end up outranking your CC!" That didn't happen, but as I've expounded on that elsewhere I'll stop it there.
My new unit was where I found the as-then-unexperienced CAP phenomena:
-Three Lt. Col's who outranked the CC
-The senior squadron "uniform optional and we don't like to fly cadets" mentalities
Promotions were not even on the radar half the time there...just flying the airplane was.
Due to moving around the country I have been a member of 7 different squadrons (working on an 8th). I have never been a member of a single squadron where the squadron commander was the highest ranking member of the squadron.
I haven't either, since that initial first move.
This is all moot to me. Nobody in my squadron drinks coffee during the meetings.... ;)
In my current unit, we have a 1Lt, whose intent in CAP is to make coffee for the meetings, provide meals during CAP activities, and support the MDWG/ANG weekend support functions. We consider him to be one of our most valuable officers. There is nothing he won't do to support the unit and it's missions. I hope we have him as a member for the next 20 years.
Apparently the gist of some here is there is nothing wrong about that 1st Lt making coffee... but in 20 years when he is a Colonel, then people will still be yelling here What! A Colonel making coffee? Leave that to the Lieutenants!...
::)
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 06, 2014, 12:10:57 PM
Apparently the gist of some here is there is nothing wrong about that 1st Lt making coffee... but in 20 years when he is a Colonel, then people will still be yelling here What! A Colonel making coffee? Leave that to the Lieutenants!...
::)
You should always be training your replacement, right?
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 06, 2014, 12:10:57 PM
Apparently the gist of some here is there is nothing wrong about that 1st Lt making coffee... but in 20 years when he is a Colonel, then people will still be yelling here What! A Colonel making coffee? Leave that to the Lieutenants!...
::)
But the Colonel knows how to make GOOD coffee, whereas the Lieutenant... >:D
Quote from: PHall on June 06, 2014, 02:50:16 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 06, 2014, 12:10:57 PM
Apparently the gist of some here is there is nothing wrong about that 1st Lt making coffee... but in 20 years when he is a Colonel, then people will still be yelling here What! A Colonel making coffee? Leave that to the Lieutenants!...
::)
But the Colonel knows how to make GOOD coffee, whereas the Lieutenant... >:D
There are some offices where the Chief would take off the arm of any lieutenant who even thought of touching the coffee machine.
"You run the office sir.....I do the coffee!"
When I was in the infantry we just tore open the little MRE coffee packets and put it in our lower lip like chew. Yum Yum. No problems staying awake in the ambush thats for sure!
Maybe Stabucks could make a new drink called "The Grunt" Just pour the coffee grounds right into your mouth.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 06, 2014, 03:44:14 PMMaybe Stabucks could make a new drink called "The Grunt" Just pour the coffee grounds right into your mouth.
They already do, I rarely leave home without it:
(http://designarchives.aiga.org/assets/images/000/100/167/100167_lg.jpg)
It's not bad, actually, and several notches above normal instant coffee, which is usually better on
ice cream then in a cup.
CRAP! Another multimillion dollar discovery that I let slip away
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 06, 2014, 03:44:14 PM
When I was in the infantry we just tore open the little MRE coffee packets and put it in our lower lip like chew. Yum Yum. No problems staying awake in the ambush thats for sure!
Maybe Stabucks could make a new drink called "The Grunt" Just pour the coffee grounds right into your mouth.
I still do that. I remember a bivouac in the late '90s, I needed a quick jolt, so I grabbed my coffee packet, the creamer, canteen and what I thought was the sugar packet. Dumped the drygoods into my mouth, added a mouthful of water, and was greeted with very salty coffee. Not the jolt I had in mind....
I had a squadron commander who used to mix Cafe Bustello in with his dip. Knew him for 10 years, never once saw him sit.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 06, 2014, 04:18:17 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 06, 2014, 03:44:14 PMMaybe Stabucks could make a new drink called "The Grunt" Just pour the coffee grounds right into your mouth.
They already do, I rarely leave home without it:
(http://designarchives.aiga.org/assets/images/000/100/167/100167_lg.jpg)
It's not bad, actually, and several notches above normal instant coffee, which is usually better on
ice cream then in a cup.
I love these things. Always have at least one box with me. Great in Pepsi....
What about the rest of us who do not drink coffee?
(http://d1r5i20o8cadcu.cloudfront.net/designs/images/64549/original/cupOfTea.png)
Quote from: CyBorg on June 06, 2014, 04:50:06 PM
What about the rest of us who do not drink coffee?
(http://d1r5i20o8cadcu.cloudfront.net/designs/images/64549/original/cupOfTea.png)
Nothing wrong with a long steeped Twinnings Jasmine tea....
Quote from: CyBorg on June 06, 2014, 04:50:06 PM
What about the rest of us who do not drink coffee?
Heathens and blasphemers!
(Though I enjoy a tea now and again myself for a change - two bags, please!)
Quote from: CyBorg on June 06, 2014, 04:50:06 PM
What about the rest of us who do not drink coffee?
(http://d1r5i20o8cadcu.cloudfront.net/designs/images/64549/original/cupOfTea.png)
Sucks to be you then! >:D
This is the most entertaining post I have ever read on CAPTALK.
My 2 cents: If higher ranking individuals are bothered by the fact that they no longer have a job because someone of lesser rank got the position, then they should do something more productive than making coffee. When things aren't going the way I'd like at CAP, I clean. No one else does it. I'm helping my team, and when you do the dirty work, you're untouchable. Why don't these higher ranking individuals seek higher positions like group, wing, region? They CHOOSE to make coffee.
Quote from: capchick121 on July 22, 2014, 05:31:36 PM
This is the most entertaining post I have ever read on CAPTALK.
My 2 cents: If higher ranking individuals are bothered by the fact that they no longer have a job because someone of lesser rank got the position, then they should do something more productive than making coffee. When things aren't going the way I'd like at CAP, I clean. No one else does it. I'm helping my team, and when you do the dirty work, you're untouchable. Why don't these higher ranking individuals seek higher positions like group, wing, region? They CHOOSE to make coffee.
It's really a metaphor for the way things are in CAP after you get...retired in place. You don't have anywhere to go past Lt Col, unless you are ambitious enough and politically connected enough to go for Wing or Region command. So, the metaphor is valid. The Lt Col ends up "bringing the coffee and donuts" because they really have nothing better to do at meetings.
I wouldn't say they are bothered so much. They most likely have been there, done that (BTDT) so much that they still want to participate, but they don't have a staff position. It's kind of sad, that we have eleventy Lt Cols in CAP but in the Real Military (RM) they would be forced to retire. There really are limited options after hitting Level 5. Which is why I refuse to promote beyond Major. As long as that bogus carrot of advancement is there, I'm good. I'm too young to retire in place! I don't want to go to Wing or Region, FSM (Flying Spaghetti Monster) forbid I go to National. I am perfectly content with what I do. I'll bring the donuts and coffee when and if it comes to it.
I personally don't have a problem with a Lt Col that, after several years in different assignments at different levels within the organization, decides to return to a squadron and take it "easy". My issue is with the CAP promotion system itself.
In CAP, there are several specialties that allow members to be get promoted up to Lt Col without having to serve at Group or Wing. In addition, a member with no prior cadet or military background or special skills can theoretically promote to Lt Col in 10 years. With many longterm members serving at least 20 years, that's half (or less) of their entire CAP career. So what do they do then?
When you add special skills and military promotions to the mix, you have many Lt Cols with less than 10 years in CAP that haven't done anything more than chaperon cadets during drill or PT... or just serve the coffee and donuts at the meetings.
This issue is made worst by the fact that many members can be promoted to Lt Col without any expectations of increased responsibilities. Again, I don't think the issue is a Lt Col that's BTDT and now has sort of "retired" in place and helps as he/she can. The issue I have is with Lt Cols that haven't done much in CAP, are not expected to do much and yet, got promoted. Meanwhile, you have inexperienced 1st Lts and Capts as SQ/CCs because all the other Majs and Lt Cols in the unit don't want the job.
I think one way to alleviate this situation is to increase the requirements to get promoted to Lt Col, increase the time in grade, add time in service requirements, require service at the group and/or wing levels and established an expectation of increased responsibilities with the promotion. Then, if a Lt Col decides after 20 years of service that instead of retiring he/she wants to help out at a unit, then I doubt anyone would be able to complain.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 22, 2014, 06:31:29 PM
I personally don't have a problem with a Lt Col that, after several years in different assignments at different levels within the organization, decides to return to a squadron and take it "easy". My issue is with the CAP promotion system itself.
In CAP, there are several specialties that allow members to be get promoted up to Lt Col without having to serve at Group or Wing. In addition, a member with no prior cadet or military background or special skills can theoretically promote to Lt Col in 10 years. With many longterm members serving at least 20 years, that's half (or less) of their entire CAP career. So what do they do then?
When you add special skills and military promotions to the mix, you have many Lt Cols with less than 10 years in CAP that haven't done anything more than chaperon cadets during drill or PT... or just serve the coffee and donuts at the meetings.
This issue is made worst by the fact that many members can be promoted to Lt Col without any expectations of increased responsibilities. Again, I don't think the issue is a Lt Col that's BTDT and now has sort of "retired" in place and helps as he/she can. The issue I have is with Lt Cols that haven't done much in CAP, are not expected to do much and yet, got promoted. Meanwhile, you have inexperienced 1st Lts and Capts as SQ/CCs because all the other Majs and Lt Cols in the unit don't want the job.
I think one way to alleviate this situation is to increase the requirements to get promoted to Lt Col, increase the time in grade, add time in service requirements, require service at the group and/or wing levels and established an expectation of increased responsibilities with the promotion. Then, if a Lt Col decides after 20 years of service that instead of retiring he/she wants to help out at a unit, then I doubt anyone would be able to complain.
I might see your point if rank in CAP was related to authority, but its not. We're a volunteer organization and some people want to be involved in a local squadron and others love doing the Wing/Region/National thing. Should we deprive ourselves of volunteer talent because they're not of the proper rank? Rank in CAP is related to special skills, prior military service, or progression up the Professional Development program. As long as that remains true, the ranks will always be skewed. Eliminate the first two and make rank directly related to PD and CAP experience, you might see a cure.
I guess where you and I seem to disagree is that I don't believe grade should be those things. We wear military style uniforms with military style grade insignias. Even though we're civilian volunteers, there's going to be an expectation. Now, if we don't want to live up to that expectation, then why do we need military style grades?
The only "fix" for this issue is to have grade be commensurate with authority, meaning no authority, no grade, and
when you step down you leave the grade on the desk for the next guy.
Longevity and experience can / should be recognized with the specialty badges, command service decorations,
and the red service ribbon, all of which we already have.
The only "sirs" and "salutes" are for members with grade on their shoulder, because that means they
really are in charge (of something), and everyone else can be a "mister" or "miss".
This would make life a lot easier for everyone, no promotions to deal with and PD gains more weight since
it would become the new indicator of "BTDT". No caste system of NCO/Officer necessary, and no need
to bother with generally irrelevant outside experience or qualifications for advanced promotion since those disappear as well.
Have great experience and skill CAP can utilize? Great. Pick up a corner and start helping carry the load.
Want military-style grade? Awesome. Accept the responsibility of command.
Done.
That's certainly an option. And something that was done quite frequently during World War II where temporary promotions were issued along with duty assignments. Military officers often reverted to their permanent grade when they were done with their tour. This model seems to work for the CGAUX; maybe it can work for CAP. But I doubt most members would go for that.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 22, 2014, 07:18:24 PMBut I doubt most members would go for that.
Sadly I agree.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 22, 2014, 07:18:24 PMThis model seems to work for the CGAUX; maybe it can work for CAP. But I doubt most members would go for that.
In the CGAUX, we don't have to revert to a lesser insignia when we leave office... provided we complete the minimum term. I will keep my bars when I finish my term as Flotilla Commander. I'll just wear the Past Officer Device when the insignia no longer reflects my current billet. We don't have Lt Col Coffeebringers, we have COMO Coffeebringers.
The other issue is brand new members who take on higher office and get frocked to the insignia of that office without having served a day in the unit level position. This is common among staff officers.
Quote from: MIKE on July 22, 2014, 09:08:04 PM
The other issue is brand new members who take on higher office and get frocked to the insignia of that office without having served a day in the unit level position. This is common among staff officers.
Exactly, the Lt. Col. Coffeebringer isn't an actual problem. However, having so few people that new members that show any competence at all that they are almost immediately pushed into the squadron commander or group/wing staff positions does show a major weakness in CAP.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 23, 2014, 02:35:16 AM
Quote from: MIKE on July 22, 2014, 09:08:04 PM
The other issue is brand new members who take on higher office and get frocked to the insignia of that office without having served a day in the unit level position. This is common among staff officers.
Exactly, the Lt. Col. Coffeebringer isn't an actual problem. However, having so few people that new members that show any competence at all that they are almost immediately pushed into the squadron commander or group/wing staff positions does show a major weakness in CAP.
Or any volunteer organization.
Me and Eclipse fight like cats and dogs....but we both agree....that we need more people and we need to train those people.
In the greater scheme of things, this "problem" isn't one and proposed "solutions" aren't needed.
In short, it's just pole vaulting over mouse turds.
Iowa wing had a fix for this, but that was back when IAWG was allowed to be proactive and get things done.
Since then the good ol boys got their wing back, ran off the folks who did things and watched a 6 figure budget from their TAG go bye-bye.
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on July 27, 2014, 05:02:01 AM
Iowa wing had a fix for this, but that was back when IAWG was allowed to be proactive and get things done.
Oh, you mean by essentially making up their own rules, alienating members, circumventing command authority,
and then nearly collapsing when a select few members who didn't get their way broke their own toys, took their ball and went home?
Right.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 22, 2014, 06:31:29 PM
In CAP, there are several specialties that allow members to be get promoted up to Lt Col without having to serve at Group or Wing. In addition, a member with no prior cadet or military background or special skills can theoretically promote to Lt Col in 10 years. With many longterm members serving at least 20 years, that's half (or less) of their entire CAP career. So what do they do then?
This really is not what you are talking about, because the person I am talking of
did serve at Squadron (in fact he was my first squadron CC), Wing (we did not have Groups then) and ultimately Region level. In fact, in one year he rapidly went from my squadron CC to Wing IG to Wing Commander. He was a bloody good one, but he did not serve out his term (he did almost three years) because of (surprise) burnout. Plus, it was nice having a little easier access to the wingco because we knew him better than most people in the wing, and he would show up not infrequently at squadron meetings and give us inside information that had not yet been widely disseminated (we found out about the grey shoulder marks and U.S. collar brass from him). 8)
However, I remember after he got his GRW, he showed up at one of our squadron meetings. He said "My training is done; there really is not more I can do for CAP." Which was not true; he spent some time at Region level as Professional Development Officer, but after 40+ years in CAP as a cadet/senior (he told me that he put so much into CAP because he had health issues that kept him from serving in the Armed Forces) I think he had finally had enough.
It is unfortunate that some complete their PD training (attaining the GRW), attain the grade of Lt Col, have served at all levels of CAP...and then feel that their career in CAP is over. During the short times that I have had a brief hiatus between assignments, I have thoroughly enjoyed hanging out at the local squadron. Being able to help encourage members -- cadets and seniors alike -- in their CAP experience is very rewarding. Having participated at all types of CAP activities and events...as well as serving at the various levels certainly provides a perspective that can be useful to those who are beginning their CAP careers or even struggling in them. There is something to be said about mentoring.
One of the concerns expressed was that after serving at higher positions in Wing, Region, or National, that the Maj or Lt Col wants to "take it easy" and does not want to assume command of a squadron. One of the purposes of the PD program is develop leadership within the organization. As a former squadron, group, wing, region chaplain, it is personally fulfilling and regarding to see those who I have mentored take on these positions of responsibility. Would I want to become a squadron chaplain again? You bet I would. Would I want to become a Group Chaplain again? Yes...if there were no others available in the Group (there was a time when I was the only Chaplain in the Group that my home squadron was a part of). Would I want to be a Wing or Region Chaplain again? No. That would deprive other chaplains from receiving the rewarding experience of serving at those levels...especially when they have pursued the levels of training that have prepared them for these responsibilities. What then would be my role -- giver of sage advice when called upon -- presenter of sessions at Chaplain Corps Region Staff College or the Wing Conference break out sessions for Chaplain Corps personnel -- bringing coffee to the Wing or Region Chaplain...not ;)
Quote from: Chappie on July 27, 2014, 04:26:33 PM-- giver of sage advice when called upon --
There's where the problem lies, in either direction.
In a perfect CAP, members wearing oaks or higher should be the most experienced, knowledgeable, and capable
people in the room, far exceeding the knowledge and experience of the unit CC, and informed at a scope greater
then the unit. This is by design. Which means that anything said which doesn't sound "right" results in the
whole room turning around and seeing what Major Payne thinks, not to mention more then a few people
asking why Major Payne isn't just standing in the front of the room. BTDT. It's not comfortable or fair
to Payne or the CC.
In the real world of CAP, members wearing oaks are sometimes the least knowledgeable and capable people in the
room, and may have no relevent experience (either due to age, GOBN, or both) whatsoever, however in far too many
cases, those oaks "empower" these same individuals to
offer their sage advice on a regular basis, unbidden
not to mention more then a few people asking "how did someone so clueless get to that level"?
It is an FWA-level squandering of time and effort for someone with effective Wing+ experience to go back down to a
unit level, especially considering that some of that time and experience came at CAP expense. Likewise,
it is unnecessarily and many times
unacceptably disruptive for someone who moved up and failed to work and play well
with others to come back to a squadron and play Yoda. That's why so many Level IV Lt Cols ascend and then bounce in
a year or two. Seen it time and again.
Something intended, theoretically, to help this situation is the command track, which is supposed to connect new
members interested in ascending with experienced mentors. I have a jumpstarted Senior rating (2 months shy of Master),
and know of a fair number of people in my wing who also jumpstarted to Senior or Master, yet to my knowledge
NO ONE is actually enrolled in the front end of this track, nor has anyone been assigned as a mentor.
How prevalent has this program been beyond awarding hundreds of meaningless jumpstarts?
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on July 27, 2014, 05:02:01 AM
Iowa wing had a fix for this, but that was back when IAWG was allowed to be proactive and get things done.
Since then the good ol boys got their wing back, ran off the folks who did things and watched a 6 figure budget from their TAG go bye-bye.
After reviewing the old Iowa "Experiment" threads, which might be interesting to write up a historical manuscript of it, I will have to say that is a over simplified generalization. Were there good things about it, sure. Were there some bad things about it? Yes as the sudden collapse of it demonstrated.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 27, 2014, 05:29:14 AM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on July 27, 2014, 05:02:01 AM
Iowa wing had a fix for this, but that was back when IAWG was allowed to be proactive and get things done.
Oh, you mean by essentially making up their own rules, alienating members, circumventing command authority,
and then nearly collapsing when a select few members who didn't get their way broke their own toys, took their ball and went home?
Right.
Your description could also accurately describe the actions of those who opposed the Iowa Wing experiment as well.
Bottom line is they had a lot more missions, a respectable state budget and a place at the table with their own state EM agencies during the program than before nor after.
The Colonel I referred to in my post was one of those who could be a veritable fountain of information on anything to do with CAP, but in the end I think he had just given so much over his many decades as both a cadet and senior that he was just tired. He also was not a young man any more. I think he had enough flying hours to be a CAP Command Pilot; he got awarded his Senior Pilot wings not long after I joined, and that was in 1993.
He spent a lot of time at Maxwell AFB and became personal friends with several national CC's. My unit was often privy to goings-on before they were known generally throughout CAP thanks to him.
I owe much of my knowledge of CAP to him. He had the patience to sit down and talk with a shy, then-relatively-young SMWOG who often is not easy to talk to and make sure he knew his stuff before getting his butterbars.
If we had Lt Col's, Col's and Generals who could make themselves available in that way, I think CAP would be much better for it.
Then again, I realise that is not realistic as the Colonel I just described was a "do-not-grow-on-trees-every-day" type.