GTM1

[lordmonar]

Has anyone ever come up with a reasonable explanation linking GTM level with number of nights deployed?

I am just guessing that it may be tied with the assemble personal gear task in the GTM-3 SQTR.  It seems we don't really make out GTM-3 get the 72-hour gear. 

Don't really know way...except as a way to get people partially trained to give them a taste of GT training before they really spend some big bucks.

I still don't really why we have a GTM 1,2,3, in the first place.

As we can see here is just confuses the who thing to no end.

[Spaceman3750]

GTM3 allows members to get operational faster while requiring our top ground people to have at least 6 sorties under their belt (or a week at an academy) for the top GTM qual. If we say "Well, just recombine it and make GTM 6 sorties" it means that it takes way longer for a new member to be useful unsupervised.

[lordmonar]

GTM3 allows members to get operational faster while requiring our top ground people to have at least 6 sorties under their belt (or a week at an academy) for the top GTM qual. If we say "Well, just recombine it and make GTM 6 sorties" it means that it takes way longer for a new member to be useful unsupervised.

Except that we then have 60-3 saying you can't do anything if you have any GTM-3 on your team.

Your argument is kind of at cross purposes.  You get a less qualified team faster and you reduce the capabilities of your fully qualifed trainees.

You see where I am going.  Even if you have a robust training program you will always have someone not fully qualified or some new trainee who is going to hold the entire team back.

So I go back to what I was saying before.  Even if we punched it up to six sorties.... that is three duty days....(two sorties a day)  Two week ends. 
Say 20 hours of class room instruction.

By combining the ratings into one...you get out the door quicker....and you reduce the actual training time it gets a fully qualified team member.

[Spaceman3750]

GTM3 allows members to get operational faster while requiring our top ground people to have at least 6 sorties under their belt (or a week at an academy) for the top GTM qual. If we say "Well, just recombine it and make GTM 6 sorties" it means that it takes way longer for a new member to be useful unsupervised.

Except that we then have 60-3 saying you can't do anything if you have any GTM-3 on your team.

I still don't get what you mean by that. I understand that the 60-3 says that you can only operate at the least common denominator of your team. Again, as far as I can tell all that really means is that your 72 hour gear stays in the van (which, BTW, couldn't make me happier ). What can you not do with a GTM3 on the team that you could with only GTM 2 or 1's, besides stay overnight (and even then, at least in my area we aren't doing too many overnights in the field that aren't part of a bivouac setup).

EDIT: Oh, dogs and helicopters, I forgot about those. You can pretty much field brief those if you have to, and IMHO that SHOULD be acceptable, though it isn't by the current standards.

[ol'fido]

I guess I'm one of those "old hands" that think this is all silly. You train your team to the highest standard possible from the get go. I also think that we need to train teams and not collections of individuals. I also feel that UDF and GT should not be separate quals. But that's just MHO.

[RiverAux]

Given the radical decline of ELT missions, we probably need to re-examine the need for having a separate UDF qualification.  When you could count on a bunch of ELT missions, it made sense to have a specialty that left out a lot of the field work.  Now that we're only having a fraction of the ELT missions, there is no real reason to keep that one around. 

[Eclipse]

The list of what you can't do as a GT-3 is in this thread.

Anything not on the GT-3 list means your team drops down, not individuals.

The idea is that anyone on your team can perform anything the team is tasked with, not that you've got "1 guy" who can do "x".

Look at the list again.

[davidsinn]

The list of what you can't do as a GT-3 is in this thread.

Anything not on the GT-3 list means your team drops down, not individuals.

The idea is that anyone on your team can perform anything the team is tasked with, not that you've got "1 guy" who can do "x".

Look at the list again.

If only one person on the team can do it than the team as a whole can do it. I don't need six GTMs that can work a map if I, as the GTL, can. I really only need one person that can recognize air to ground signals.

[Eclipse]

Until that "person" is injured or incapacitated, and then you're stuck in the woods, lost.

The regs are clear.  The team is based on LCD, the highest of a few.  That's why everyone is "equal" in equipment as well - we don't just bring one compass, etc.

There's also a 1-3 trainee ratio that a lot of people are either ignorant of or ignore (not saying you are, but it is pretty common).

The idea that the GTL can, and usually does, all the heavy lifitng is incorrect as well.  The GTL is supposed to command the team, and usually from the back is a better position.  If his nose is in a map, that's when Cadet Baggie falls into the river.  Also, a GTL3 would not have proven map skills, either.

[davidsinn]

Until that "person" is injured or incapacitated, and then you're stuck in the woods, lost.

The regs are clear.  The team is based on LCD, the highest of a few.  That's why everyone is "equal" in equipment as well - we don't just bring one compass, etc.

There's also a 1-3 trainee ratio that a lot of people are either ignorant of or ignore (not saying you are, but it is pretty common).

The idea that the GTL can, and usually does, all the heavy lifitng is incorrect as well.  The GTL is supposed to command the team, and usually from the back is a better position.  If his nose is in a map, that's when Cadet Baggie falls into the river.  Also, a GTL3 would not have proven map skills, either.

You have a point which is why we need to go to a single GTM rating. I try whenever possible to delegate but navigating is not something I'll delegate if I can avoid it simply because I've been working maps since before some of my cadets were born. GTLs have all the map tasks on their SQTR currently.

[Spaceman3750]

Until that "person" is injured or incapacitated, and then you're stuck in the woods, lost.

The regs are clear.  The team is based on LCD, the highest of a few.  That's why everyone is "equal" in equipment as well - we don't just bring one compass, etc.

There's also a 1-3 trainee ratio that a lot of people are either ignorant of or ignore (not saying you are, but it is pretty common).

The idea that the GTL can, and usually does, all the heavy lifitng is incorrect as well.  The GTL is supposed to command the team, and usually from the back is a better position.  If his nose is in a map, that's when Cadet Baggie falls into the river.  Also, a GTL3 would not have proven map skills, either.

Personally, I think you're taking too strict of an interpretation of the 60-3, but if you were my GBD I'd do whatever you told me to do. I'm not saying I would take a team of GTM3's into an overnight expedition or into a mountain range, but 90% of what you posted that a team with a GTM3 can't do can either be delegated to a GTM2 or 1 (or done by the GTL) (like navigation) or field briefed and GTL-directed (like working with a dog team, helicopter operations, ramp search, etc).

Unfortunately and frustratingly, I've been to almost every SAREX with a ground component in our wing this year (I don't even want to think about what my car thinks of me right now) and I have yet to see a GTM2 or 1 (or even a trainee). It's useful for me to add on experience in crew management but the folks I've been working with for the most part aren't the ones who we would see turning out for a 6pm mission person search (most of them were young-middle teens cadets). Not that they couldn't, I just don't think they would.

[RiverAux]

If the theory is that a ground team that only has a GTL and 3 GTM3s on it can't do ANYTHING that isn't a GTM3 task, then how in the world are the GTM3s going to be able to go on a sortie to learn GTM2 tasks? 

[ßτε]

If the theory is that a ground team that only has a GTL and 3 GTM3s on it can't do ANYTHING that isn't a GTM3 task, then how in the world are the GTM3s going to be able to go on a sortie to learn GTM2 tasks?

They would need to be a GTM2 trainee.

[Spaceman3750]

If the theory is that a ground team that only has a GTL and 3 GTM3s on it can't do ANYTHING that isn't a GTM3 task, then how in the world are the GTM3s going to be able to go on a sortie to learn GTM2 tasks?

As a GTM2 trainee. A commander or designee can pretty much instantly make them a GTM2-T after GTM3 completion, there's no prep/fam,

[cap235629]

If the theory is that a ground team that only has a GTL and 3 GTM3s on it can't do ANYTHING that isn't a GTM3 task, then how in the world are the GTM3s going to be able to go on a sortie to learn GTM2 tasks?

As a GTM2 trainee. A commander or designee can pretty much instantly make them a GTM2-T after GTM3 completion, there's no prep/fam,

But who is going to supervise the trainee?  Who is going to be the SET who signs them off?

[Eclipse]

And, if you go as a GTM2-T, that screws up your 1-3 ratio.

[Eclipse]

If the theory is that a ground team that only has a GTL and 3 GTM3s on it can't do ANYTHING that isn't a GTM3 task, then how in the world are the GTM3s going to be able to go on a sortie to learn GTM2 tasks?

You don't have to task in a mission environment.

[Spaceman3750]

If the theory is that a ground team that only has a GTL and 3 GTM3s on it can't do ANYTHING that isn't a GTM3 task, then how in the world are the GTM3s going to be able to go on a sortie to learn GTM2 tasks?

As a GTM2 trainee. A commander or designee can pretty much instantly make them a GTM2-T after GTM3 completion, there's no prep/fam,

But who is going to supervise the trainee?  Who is going to be the SET who signs them off?

In my case, being a SET for GTM 3 and 2, I would just like I would supervise and sign off any GTM3s I have. Of course, it depends on how many trainees I already have (Eclipse, can you cite your 1-3 ratio, I've never seen it but I'm going to check 60-3), and they can always be there as a GTM3 in their own right if need be, they just can't be signed off.

[Eclipse]

...Eclipse, can you cite your 1-3 ratio...

60-3, Page 9

d. Only qualified CAP members, qualified members of other agencies with which CAP
has an approved memorandum of understanding, and CAP mission trainees under the
supervision of a qualified person may participate in CAP operational missions. There will be at
a minimum a 1-to-3 ratio of supervisors to trainees when trainees are utilized.

[Spaceman3750]

60-3, Page 9

d. Only qualified CAP members, qualified members of other agencies with which CAP
has an approved memorandum of understanding, and CAP mission trainees under the
supervision of a qualified person may participate in CAP operational missions. There will be at
a minimum a 1-to-3 ratio of supervisors to trainees when trainees are utilized.

There it is. Thanks .