CAP Talk

Has anyone noticed the expansion of www.gocivilairpatrol.com?

Click members at the top of the page and it looks like they've begun to transition all the program information over.  Interesting to see what transpires.

Nifty, but I'm gonna have to add a bookmark just for the members section because I sure as shucks aint gonna wait for that homepage to load each time I want to check a reg

Maybe the server was busy. The homepage opened right away for me.

And they STILL haven't fixed the video problems

and this site is a big time firefox hater!

Any one else?

No problems at all getting it to load, very fast. So by the look of this, this is replacing www.cap.gov?

I really like the look of the new site, but I always liked the .gov web address..

I also like how the Cadet Programs page is broken down a little bit, instead of just a bunch of information d links all on one page, they organized it some. 

SARKID -www.cap.gov/pubs (http://www.cap.gov/pubs)

My understanding is that the migration has begun.  Especially in the CP section, there is eventually (so I'm told) going to be a blog, webpages for each cadet grade (like a C/TSgt homepage to tell them all about being a C/TSgt) and other nifty things.

I noticed they're working on the "CAP University" in the professional development section.

This could get fun :)

I hope that when they are done that they retain the .gov and set it up to redirect to this new site.

Quote from: IceNineand this site is a big time firefox hater!

"We are Internet Explorer. Lower your shields and surrender your computer. We will add your internet use and browsing distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

Quote from: IceNine on October 01, 2008, 10:11:35 AM
and this site is a big time firefox hater!

Any one else?

Works great with Firefox 2.0.0.17

Quote from: davidsinn on October 01, 2008, 04:04:09 PM

Quote from: IceNine on October 01, 2008, 10:11:35 AM
and this site is a big time firefox hater!

Any one else?

Works great with Firefox 2.0.0.17

Looks fine in Firefox 3.0.3

why are they moving internal data to a recruiting website?

Each of the services has a recruiting website, a public access website, and an internal portal. This works very well to keep the functions seperate & tailor the information to the target audience.

I would note that all services are currently transitioning from their own portals to a joint front-end of DKO, based on the foundation of AKO.

If you've never used AKO or one of the other service portals, you will have a hard time understanding the level of functionality I'm talking about, or that literally everything can be stored, accessed, and done from there.

It would benefit CAP to use their domains in the same way:

gocivilairpatrol.com as the recruiting portal with actual backup from NHQ based on what the services are doing (goarmy.com or 1800goguard are two of the better ones).

cap.gov as the public front end > just like af.mil

and, cap.af.mil as the internal portal with useful functionality.

Quote from: DNall on October 01, 2008, 04:21:16 PM
It would benefit CAP to use their domains in the same way:

gocivilairpatrol.com as the recruiting portal with actual backup from NHQ based on what the services are doing (goarmy.com or 1800goguard are two of the better ones).

cap.gov as the public front end > just like af.mil

and, cap.af.mil as the internal portal with useful functionality.

That makes too much sense.  Don't say it any louder, or the black vans may come for you.  :o

Quote from: DNall on October 01, 2008, 04:21:16 PM
why are they moving internal data to a recruiting website?

Each of the services has a recruiting website, a public access website, and an internal portal. This works very well to keep the functions seperate & tailor the information to the target audience.

I would note that all services are currently transitioning from their own portals to a joint front-end of DKO, based on the foundation of AKO.

If you've never used AKO or one of the other service portals, you will have a hard time understanding the level of functionality I'm talking about, or that literally everything can be stored, accessed, and done from there.

It would benefit CAP to use their domains in the same way:

gocivilairpatrol.com as the recruiting portal with actual backup from NHQ based on what the services are doing (goarmy.com or 1800goguard are two of the better ones).

cap.gov as the public front end > just like af.mil

and, cap.af.mil as the internal portal with useful functionality.

I generally agree but I have a more basic question: 
What is prompting the need for this change?

The "gocivilairpatrol.com" domain is fine for recruiting, I guess.  But the cap.gov domain gets it done and with fewer keystrokes.   

I'd just really like someone to explain the reasoning behind a complete migration.  Actually, I'd like someone from national to say anything, period.   Communication is non-existent.  Given the marketing material that includes the cap.gov address, they'd better retain that domain.  This apparent migration really does make a lot of sense on the surface.  Seems to be change simply for the sake of change.

Most of the marketing material is currently in the process of a re-design. They will most likely change the information on the new stuff to start pushing anyone interested in CAP to the new site.

Quote from: edmo1 on October 17, 2008, 09:29:19 PM
Most of the marketing material is currently in the process of a re-design. They will most likely change the information on the new stuff to start pushing anyone interested in CAP to the new site.

Again, lack of communication from NHQ here is very problematic. 

There is a lot of material in play that is simply labeled with the cap.gov.  We're not going to just throw that out....or at least I hope we're not.  It will cost far too much for us to replace it.  If that is NHQ's plan, they need to start communicating 6 months ago so that squadrons can plan for these changes (we have our material as well).

ditto on DNALL's comments. 

Makes no sense to me.  I'm beginning to think that the public affairs folks dream up some crazy ideas at these national workshops and then just assume that everyone else knows what they're trying to do through telepathy. 

Same thing is going on with the recruiting brochures.  Absolutely no official word on what is going on with those.....

Two words

PAO OPSEC

8)

At the NER conference today, it was announced that cap.gov is going away, and would be redirected to gocivilairpatrol.com.

No date or explanation was given, but you will notice that some pages at cap.gov already state they are no longer being updated, and refer to the other site.

If the plan is to really "park" cap.gov from the domain perspective that is a HUGE mistake.  Having over a decade in website design and software engineering experience - I can tell you that there are some big bucks exchanged to get three letter domain names like "CAP.GOV".    I have one client that was offered $250,000 for their 4 letter .com domain.   "gocivilairpatrol.com" as the ONLY domain is a NO NO.   

Just try to tell some where to go on the phone "Well Mr. newbie cap member "go to ' gocivilairpatrol.com'".   Mr. New says.. "Where do I go?  Civil Air Patrol.com? Say what?".

Now, if the plan is to keep cap.gov for member only and use gocivilairpatrol.com for the recruiting site, then I can buy that.  But....   .COM anything to a government agency and you're no longer one of us you commercial site operator vermin.

With the transition of the cap.gov domains mail host (MX) record to GMAIL and Google, all members could easily be given cap.gov email accounts.   Then you have the CAP.GOV email address looking snappy and professional but then the www.gocivilairpatrol.com domain.

If it aint broke, then don't fix it.

;)

think army.mil (day to day work) and goarmy.com (please see our recruiter and sign up)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.mil

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc920

gocivilairpatrol.com - appearances can be deceiving, has anyone looked at the view source....whoever they paid to develop the site, has no clue about code syntax.   They are lucky they are even picked up by Google or any search engine since it isn't even coded correctly.   It violates several key coding rules that Google has implemented for sites.     GoCivil... has 2,660 external links according to Google data, meaning it is considered a "virgin" in regard to other websites.  cap.gov isnt coded correctly as well only achieving 36,200 external links in its lifetime - quite bad for a major organization of 60+ years.   GoCivil...is  basically a typical, premade template with some flashy graphics.  It mainly promotes CAP and repeats the same boring message that CAP has been conveying for decades.  It is typical early 2000's style and look.   It is definitely a step up from previous interfaces but still outdated though.  Just my two cents worth.  I dont mean to offend anyone since this is my first post but been in CAP for 24 years, as a Cadet & as a Senior.    I just wish CAP would get with the times.

Quote from: KyCAP on October 19, 2008, 09:10:51 PM
If the plan is to really "park" cap.gov from the domain perspective that is a HUGE mistake.  Having over a decade in website design and software engineering experience - I can tell you that there are some big bucks exchanged to get three letter domain names like "CAP.GOV".    I have one client that was offered $250,000 for their 4 letter .com domain.   "gocivilairpatrol.com" as the ONLY domain is a NO NO.   

Just try to tell some where to go on the phone "Well Mr. newbie cap member "go to ' gocivilairpatrol.com'".   Mr. New says.. "Where do I go?  Civil Air Patrol.com? Say what?".

Now, if the plan is to keep cap.gov for member only and use gocivilairpatrol.com for the recruiting site, then I can buy that.  But....   .COM anything to a government agency and you're no longer one of us you commercial site operator vermin.

With the transition of the cap.gov domains mail host (MX) record to GMAIL and Google, all members could easily be given cap.gov email accounts.   Then you have the CAP.GOV email address looking snappy and professional but then the www.gocivilairpatrol.com domain.

If it aint broke, then don't fix it.

;)

think army.mil (day to day work) and goarmy.com (please see our recruiter and sign up)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.mil

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc920

Agree x1000.   

Hopefully someone at NER can relay this concern - the discussion needs to start somewhere.  This is very poor site management and obtaining a .gov address takes a little more effort.  National now has official, public sites with the following top-level domain names:
   .gov (appropriate use)
   .org (appropriate use)
   .com (while technically not incorrect, it's not the best choice)
So, of the three, we're moving to the one that is most marginal?  ???  In addition, how about developing a standardized approach?  Will Wing sites also become .com? 

NHQ needs to re-evaluate this change pronto - stop and actually put some thought in this.  There are plenty of members they can leverage that have a great deal of knowledge on this stuff.   NHQ also needs to start communicating intent/vision.

^^^^^

Better get it together CAP

If you lose forms and pubs thru your myriad of being "web proficient" you are going to lose precious safety of flight items

get ahold of yourselves for the sake of the rest of the apprx 60,000

Trying to remain constructive..  if anyone from CAP NHQ actually lurks.. 

If you receive Federal Funds then your website also has to be Section 508 compliant for accessibility for the handicapped.   In otherwords, images in the page have to have tags attached to them that let software packages assist with navigation.

If you use this free tool: http://www.contentquality.com/ then you see that www.gocivilairpatrol.com fails repeatedly.

I suggest they purchase a professional testing tool: http://www-01.ibm.com/software/rational/offerings/websecurity/

But, I am just a volunteer.

Cheers.

Quote from: EMT-83 on October 18, 2008, 06:32:06 PM
At the NER conference today, it was announced that cap.gov is going away, and would be redirected to gocivilairpatrol.com.

No date or explanation was given, but you will notice that some pages at cap.gov already state they are no longer being updated, and refer to the other site.

Oh Jeez... Here comes yet another decal change for the vehicles...  ::)

This is absurd. It was my understanding that gocivilairpatrol.com was supposed to be a recruiting site, much like airforce.com, while cap.gov would remain the publicly visible site more geared toward members, like af.mil.

To me it makes much more sense to do this, we streamline the recruiting effort, making it so that prospective members don't have to dig through tons of stuff to find what they are looking for, similar to the new recruiting materials NHQ has been producing.

www.cap.gov could certainly under go some cleanup, and reorganization, but they should not get rid of it. (Not to mention, how many of us spent months trying to figure out cap.gov!)

I hate it when national seems to be in a state of not knowing what it is doing, and is not communicating with the membership. Has anyone seen this in a NB Agenda?

Quote from: DC on October 21, 2008, 11:20:53 AM
This is absurd. It was my understanding that gocivilairpatrol.com was supposed to be a recruiting site, much like airforce.com, while cap.gov would remain the publicly visible site more geared toward members, like af.mil.

It was supposed to be only a recruiting site.  But how many times has it been made repeatedly clear to us that CAP NHQ has no clue whatsoever in the entire universe how to do their jobs?

Making a separate recruiting website like GoCivilAirPatrol.com was the first glimmer of hope that somebody at NHQ "got it".  Merging the member website off of our prolific and long-standing cap.gov domain into the poorly designed recruiting website template not only reassured me that NHQ still has no clue, but also was one of the dumbest moves I've seen since we switched our van decals and flight suit patches four times.


The worst part of the whole ordeal?  NHQ keeps updating and making new marketing materials without ever having established a brand identity for Civil Air Patrol.  Our brand identity is so seriously fractured and non-existent that every marketing effort is like a shot in the dark, isolated by itself instead of a group of coordinated, matching efforts which support and build off each other.  Every time NHQ invests money in time into developing a new website, a new brochure, a new advertisement (ha!), a new vehicle graphic, a new logo (we're up to about 8 or 9 CAP logos now by my count), without having first taken a step back and created a central brand identity and coordinated communications plan -- then that money and time is wasted.  Might as well not bother do it at all.

All I can do is shake my head and sob silently while NHQ flies CAP straight into terrain.

I share many of the sentiments expressed in this thread but I truly doubt that anyone at NHQ is aware of our concerns.  Is there any way we can get this info into the appropriate hands at NHQ?  Posting here in hopes that they might happen to see this thread really isn't an appropriate means of communicating this information.

Actually there are some senior CAP PA folks that see this info and are working on addressing your concerns.

I ask that you work with your Wing and Region PAO's. We are in a position to influence the leadership and NHQ/PA. We need your input not only to your wing and Region PA's but on boards like this.

Keep it coming.

Okay, Al.  Here's my biggest piece of advice as a PR professional for the NHQ/PA team.   

Stop.

Stop working on things.  Everything you're currently working on by the very nature of it will be disjointed.  Just stop.  Anything you're doing will have to be redone anyways.  (So let me say it once more:  Stop.)

Take a step back, hire a professional communications consultant and start working on SWOT analysis of CAP's branding.  Create an identity system, complete with a style guide and don't create any new marketing materials, efforts or components until this is complete.

But hey, I'm just a professional.

I have to agree with Pylon.  At this point, just stop.  Get a plan together.  The idea of National is to provide strategic direction for the organization.  This is desperately needed.  Work on that vision first.  Once the vision is clearly defined,  communicate that vision to membership (you can't possibly overcommuncate at this point), then discuss how best to market that vision.  As stated before, there are members that are truly skilled in these areas.  Leverage them, if needed.  Get member input.  We are the organization.

The changes I see being made are dis-jointed at best.  Resourceses are being wasted and only add to the issues we face.  Please ask that they stop and regroup before moving forward further.

Quote from: Pylon on October 21, 2008, 02:12:14 PM
But hey, I'm just a professional.

How about doing "real" leg work instead of all the "corporate jargon" you just spewed.  Until CAP PAOs lose the "identity crisis" and simply start really working the local newspapers, making community connections with other organizations and get CAP the same name recognition as the Boy Scouts and Red Cross; nonthing that comes out of National HQ is going to do much more than languish.

All CAP is local, this is a reality.  Local governments are going to deal with local units on a day to day basis and only deal with Wing or NHQ during an emergency/crisis.  The "war" for CAP is won when a PAO is addressing community government, working with Airport Officials and making a name for CAP in the county/city and NOT when an IO is giving information at a crash or ICP.

By the way, Mike, if any of you are expecting National HQ to solve your PR issues...you are in for a long wait.  If you are trying to apply the "ad game" to local CAP then you must not understand local CAP.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 03:40:10 PM

Quote from: Pylon on October 21, 2008, 02:12:14 PM
But hey, I'm just a professional.

How about doing "real" leg work instead of all the "corporate jargon" you just spewed.

Excuse me?  It's not meaningless corporate jargon.  This stuff makes or breaks multi-national corporations.  People spend their entire careers dealing with these very issues.  Major corporations have employees dedicated soley to protecting identity and branding, separate from communications, PR, and marketing staff (three very separate functions, I might add and clarify).

Just because you don't understand it or see a need for it at the local level doesn't mean that it's not important.  I don't expect most of the 600+ employees at my employer to understand my job or see a need for me.  And frankly, most employees don't need to understand or see it's value.  It's outside the scope of their duties but it still needs to happen.  I do know that the Executive Director and the Board of Directors understand clearly, see the value that my department brings to the organization and I know what my contribution to the organization's improved success and bottom line is.  That's what matters.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 03:40:10 PMBy the way, Mike, if any of you are expecting National HQ to solve your PR issues...you are in for a long wait.  If you are trying to apply the "ad game" to local CAP then you must not understand local CAP.

I don't know what you mean by "ad game" and I'm not sure what you're even trying to get at with your post other than trying to argue for there being no need for national-level PR and marketing efforts.  I can tell you don't work in the corporate or non-profit worlds - and that's fine; I am not expecting you to understand all this.   

CAP is a big, national non-profit organization, however, and should be doing the same things as any other successful national non-profit organization.  Coordinating the national marketing, communications and PR efforts into a cohesive branding and identity is one of those things.   Success as an organization comes from more sources than sheer brute force volunteer efforts at every local chapter; does your efforts at the local level play an important part?  Yes.  But it's not the whole picture, Sparky.

Michael Kieloch
Public Relations Society of America, Member

^^^^^^^
Problem is... CAP can not accept advice from other professional folks out there, it truly seems

CAP is it and can not bother with outside sources. 

Just ask em 

Maybe its time for the AF to do a liitle compliance check on its money and where it goes for all this web advertising

gocivilairpatrol.coms ate my baby.

Again, I have to agree with Pylon.  

With all due respect to Major Carreles, it doesn't appear that you have a firm grasp on the purpose of strategic planning and vision.  While your statement about CAP being local is true, NHQ must provide direction for the organization as a whole so that those squadrons acting locally have clear objectives and act consistently.  The vision provides us with a common message.  It tells us how to use our resources.  It provides standards and direction.  It is desperately needed. 

We've not seen a strategic plan since...I don't know when.  It is vitial to the success of any organization.  And it should not be a secret.

Didn't they talk about vision at the PAO academy?  Oh that's right. That's when we got "More Than Meets The Skies"  :D

Here is where the reality encounters lofty ideals.  I believe that an organized CAP overall plan is needed, however, lack of such a plan should not preclude action.

Reality, most units do not even have a PAO.  They exist in isolation and their deed go unreported.

Reality, most PAOs are on their own with little help or contact with other PAOs.  There are no real broadcast quality tech assets, so a PAO has to produce everything locally.

Quote from: Pylon on October 21, 2008, 03:55:03 PM

Excuse me?  It's not meaningless corporate jargon.  This stuff makes or breaks multi-national corporations.  People spend their entire careers dealing with these very issues.  Major corporations have employees dedicated soley to protecting identity and branding, separate from communications, PR, and marketing staff (three very separate functions, I might add and clarify).

Just because you don't understand it or see a need for it at the local level doesn't mean that it's not important.  I don't expect most of the 600+ employees at my employer to understand my job or see a need for me.  And frankly, most employees don't need to understand or see it's value.  It's outside the scope of their duties but it still needs to happen.  I do know that the Executive Director and the Board of Directors understand clearly, see the value that my department brings to the organization and I know what my contribution to the organization's improved success and bottom line is.  That's what matters.

CAP is not a "multi-national" corporation, nor does it have the resources of one.  That being said, money has been sepent on such matters.  The results, from professionals, were ridiculed by you people and I would go as far as to say that nothing will get past that.

I've been a PAO in the field since 1998.  I've seen "America's Best Kept Secret," "Missions for America" and "More than meets the Skies."  I was at the first PAO Academy and it was told to me that the idea was that all CAP was local.

Over reaching plans will not save CAP PR, only the leg work of local people with a guidance from CAP NHQ will work.

QuoteI don't know what you mean by "ad game" and I'm not sure what you're even trying to get at with your post other than trying to argue for there being no need for national-level PR and marketing efforts.  I can tell you don't work in the corporate or non-profit worlds - and that's fine; I am not expecting you to understand all this.   

CAP is a big, national non-profit organization, however, and should be doing the same things as any other successful national non-profit organization.  Coordinating the national marketing, communications and PR efforts into a cohesive branding and identity is one of those things.   Success as an organization comes from more sources than sheer brute force volunteer efforts at every local chapter; does your efforts at the local level play an important part?  Yes.  But it's not the whole picture, Sparky.

I'm not saying thre is no need for a National Program, just that it is not the MESSIAH type program that is going to make Joe Citizen leap up and say..."I WANT TO BE SEPMER VIGILANS."  The recruiting and Public Affairs people are going to listen to is the local person, cadets or CAP Officers, that are "getting the job done."

What's that National PR going to say?  Come out and FLY?  I don't think the effort to start a Unit in Laredo is going to get much out of that since they likly won't even see and aircraft.  It would begin with service, showing local people working.  Going out and meeting the people.  Not some "tag line" from some region.

QuoteMichael Kieloch
Public Relations Society of America, Member

Wow, and I take it on the chin for using the term "Major" in my screen name.  I'm a member of the Knights of Columbus, certified Teacher and a Mariachi Band.

My main problem with your post is that you basically told Al his efforts were worthless.  I take issue with that.  He is one of the hardest working PAOs in the Civil Air Patrol.

Quote from: teddeh on October 21, 2008, 04:21:22 PM
Didn't they talk about vision at the PAO academy?  Oh that's right. That's when we got "More Than Meets The Skies"  :D

The Academy did not come up with that...a well paid PR company gave us that.  You know, type of people Pylon is saying we should hire.

Quote from: A.Member on October 21, 2008, 04:15:20 PM
Again, I have to agree with Pylon.  

With all due respect to Major Carreles, it doesn't appear that you have a firm grasp on the purpose of strategic planning and vision.  While your statement about CAP being local is true, NHQ must provide direction for the organization as a whole so that those squadrons acting locally have clear objectives and act consistently.  The vision provides us with a common message.  It tells us how to use our resources.  It provides standards and direction.  It is desperately needed. 

We've not seen a strategic plan since...I don't know when.  It is vitial to the success of any organization.  And it should not be a secret.

Fancy taglines and "mission statements" are not going to save the PR program; the actions of local CAP is where it happens.

I know well enough about planning and visions; I've seen school spend millions on such plans and not improve their rating.  You know what did improve their rating?  Caring teachers, firm, but fair Administration and offering programs like CAP to the students; again, it comes from the field.

I dont' think "suits" in some office out in the Northeast can tell me more about the demographics and need of my area than I can tell them. 

Major Corrales,

I don't think that what people are saying is that CAP NHQ has to do all the legwork out in the field or that all CAP advertising, etc needs to be done at the national level.

What does need to happen is that CAP NHQ has to develop a specific image that it wants to portray to the world.  It needs to create brand recognition so that someone who picks up a flyer knows what they are holding.  They need to develop standards for the use of it's logo, specific color layouts and materials that match that scheme.

When was the last time you picked up a red white and blue Coca Cola can?  Never, because that's pepsi.  The only difference is we don't even know who we are.  There isn't communication (like you said above) between the PAO folks at NHQ and those "doing the legwork."  Those "doing the legwork" need to know what they are selling and how their efforts need to focus around selling that image.  Leaving every unit to develop their own materials with different standards, logos, colors, formats, skill levels, etc is extremely unprofessional and counter-productive to what every major corporation and non-profit in the world does.

The new website is getting dogged, not because it looks bad or isn't functional, but because it is trying to mix things that the most successful recruiting agencies in the world don't do.  The US Military doesn't use the same site to recruit that it does to have their members work off of. 

The BSA (who's membership is nearly 100X ours) have separate websites and cohesive nationally produced materials.  Every piece of literature matches the scheme they have on their website and visa versa.

I think that you are confusing the need to develop a marketing image with getting our word out.  The image needs to come first, then the marketing people need to make the image clear to those who are doing the public affairs stuff.

Our marketing skill is so limited that if you notice there isn't even a "donate here" button on cap.gov.  Go to BSA, Girl Scouts, Red Cross, or any other non-profit and see what you find.

We need a marketing image.  We need to have our literature have the same look and feel as everything else we do.  Our website doesn't do that, our literature doesn't do that and the 1,500 different flavors locally created don't do that either.

Everyone is always trying to save money.  All too often those 'savings' are at the expense of the program, when I believe it should be funded and produced way over the local level of operation.  
For example, Avery business cards - all done locally off of my squadron's computer, Websites slapped together by someone who just read HTML for dummies.  
And yes, my squadron has both of these.  So I agree with Maj. Carrales that in the absence of leadership, you need to step it up locally.  Unfortunatly, I do not have a graphic artist or web designer on my squadron staff.

My problem with this 'solution' is that the end result of a lot of hard work by individuals scattered across the country with little to no guidance is not acceptable for an organization as large and as well funded as CAP.


Just saw Jimmydean's message.  I agree 100%.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 04:58:51 PM
Here is where the reality encounters lofty ideals.  I believe that an organized CAP overall plan is needed, however, lack of such a plan should not preclude action.

A lack of a plan should always preclude action. 

"Hey, lets jump feet first into this project, spend money and commit resources with no plan or vision!  YAY!" is not the way to go about national-level activities.  You're confusing having a communications and marketing plan preventing sending out media releases at the local level or something; that's not what I'm saying.

QuoteReality, most units do not even have a PAO.  They exist in isolation and their deed go unreported.

This is a separate issue.  Public Relations is supported by marketing and communications efforts but they are not one in the same.  At the same time, PAO's at the unit level need better support from NHQ in the way of training and tools.

If John Doe, an operating engineer and father of Cadet Doe, joins the squadron to help out and gets assigned as PAO, there needs to be a better guide on how to do the job.  This doesn't exist.  Good template, ready-to-use media releases and pre-canned human interest stories for when news is slow are all good things that unit PAO's need but don't have.  The existing PAO toolkit is nothing more than a collection of random marketing materials and videos -- I never found it helpful.

However, this issue is separate from the branding and identity issues and they could both be worked on simulanteously.  With the exception of the letterhead and the boilerplate text about CAP, the local unit PAO materials wouldn't be affected by branding and identity.   So you're argument that focusing on one makes us abandon another is irrelevant.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 04:58:51 PMReality, most PAOs are on their own with little help or contact with other PAOs.  There are no real broadcast quality tech assets, so a PAO has to produce everything locally.

Exactly.  I agree.  It's a big problem at NHQ needs to produce professional tools for the local unit PAO's to use.  But materials and communications vehicles like commercials/PSAs, printed pieces, etc should not be developped until a solid identity is developed and in place.

QuoteCAP is not a "multi-national" corporation, nor does it have the resources of one. 

Again, I go back to my quote.  You're not expected to understand this, Sparky.  There's no test at the end of the thread.  You don't even need to know it exists, especially if it's working properly.  The point being is that leaders of major organizations understand the importance of it, and those in the field see that it's being done poorly.   We understand the sometimes intangible unrealized gain that CAP is suffering from because of our lack of cohesive branding and fractured identity.  This is not "jargon" - this is how businesses work.  You'll learn this stuff if you go to school for business or work in one.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 04:58:51 PMThat being said, money has been sepent on such matters.  The results, from professionals, were ridiculed by you people and I would go as far as to say that nothing will get past that.

Hiring Joe Schmoe from down the street who has been making a medicore living with their consulting business working for some small potatoes clients is not the same as hiring professionals.  Money has been spent, yes.  It doesn't mean that it was spent wisely.

What I'm recommending could probably be done with the right volunteers for no cost at all.  But National CAP does not draw upon the professional backgrounds of its volunteers. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 04:58:51 PMI've been a PAO in the field since 1998.  I've seen "America's Best Kept Secret," "Missions for America" and "More than meets the Skies."  I was at the first PAO Academy and it was told to me that the idea was that all CAP was local.

Being a volunteer public affairs position for a local organization chapter is different than being a professional in the field.  I got asked to be a volunteer treasurer for a local club; if I served as treasurer for 10 years, it doesn't mean that I'm qualified to work in the finance department of an organization or even that my financial opinions and advice should carry any additional weight than the average Joe Citizen.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 04:58:51 PMOver reaching plans will not save CAP PR, only the leg work of local people with a guidance from CAP NHQ will work.

QuoteI don't know what you mean by "ad game" and I'm not sure what you're even trying to get at with your post other than trying to argue for there being no need for national-level PR and marketing efforts.  I can tell you don't work in the corporate or non-profit worlds - and that's fine; I am not expecting you to understand all this.   

Sparky -- you need to understand that there is need for public affairs and the local and national levels.  Get this "local only!!!" thing out of your head.  It makes no sense.

Good PAO efforts are needed at the local level.  But guess what's not local:  our vehicle graphics, brochures, magazine advertisements, national media coverage, national website, posters, promotional items, recruiting displays, and marketing materials are all not local.  These are the things that local PAO's cannot change and get stuck with no matter how hard they work as a PAO.  These are the things that we're talking about improving.  Getting it yet?

CAP is a big, national non-profit organization, however, and should be doing the same things as any other successful national non-profit organization.  Coordinating the national marketing, communications and PR efforts into a cohesive branding and identity is one of those things.   Success as an organization comes from more sources than sheer brute force volunteer efforts at every local chapter; does your efforts at the local level play an important part?  Yes.  But it's not the whole picture, Sparky.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 04:58:51 PMI'm not saying thre is no need for a National Program, just that it is not the MESSIAH type program that is going to make Joe Citizen leap up and say..."I WANT TO BE SEPMER VIGILANS."  The recruiting and Public Affairs people are going to listen to is the local person, cadets or CAP Officers, that are "getting the job done."

Actually, it should be contributing to people knowing about and wanting to join CAP, yes.  Is it the entire answer?  No; I never said it was.  But it's one of many things that needs serious review and improvement.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 04:58:51 PMWhat's that National PR going to say?  Come out and FLY?  I don't think the effort to start a Unit in Laredo is going to get much out of that since they likly won't even see and aircraft.  It would begin with service, showing local people working.  Going out and meeting the people.  Not some "tag line" from some region.

Once again -- you really don't understand what we're talking about (and again that's okay, you're not expected to.  But when you don't understand things, don't argue about them).  Branding and identity has very, very little to do with a tagline or motto.  Very, very little.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 04:58:51 PM

QuoteMichael Kieloch
Public Relations Society of America, Member

Wow, and I take it on the chin for using the term "Major" in my screen name.  I'm a member of the Knights of Columbus, certified Teacher and a Mariachi Band.

And if I we were having a debate about the fourth degree process of the Knights of Columbus and you included that qualification in your signature, I might put a bit more weight to your opinion.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 04:58:51 PMMy main problem with your post is that you basically told Al his efforts were worthless.  I take issue with that.  He is one of the hardest working PAOs in the Civil Air Patrol.

These efforts aren't coming from Al -- they're coming from the paid NHQ staff.  I was not criticizing Al, and I'm pretty sure he understands that.

Edited to fix quote tags --MK

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 21, 2008, 05:04:30 PMFancy taglines and "mission statements" are not going to save the PR program; the actions of local CAP is where it happend...

I couldn't agree more.  Which is why I stated that it's my impression you do not have a good understanding of what strategic planning means.  And again, I do not intend that comment as an insult in any way.  The idea that we come up some new motto is not what I'm talking about.  That's not strategic planning; although it may come of out of these efforts. 

Strategic planning involves each and every aspect of the organization, it's not just a PR issue.  As a matter of fact, PR bases their communications on the plan.  A marketing plan is based off of the direction provided from a strategic plan.  Input to a strategic plan may be solicited from squadrons, if desired, but either way it is done at a National level.  It provides a high-level, top-down approach for the organization.  It will define who we are and where we are going.  It sets priorities and provides us focus.  It provides direction on the approach to operations, AE, and cadet programs among other things and defines how we use our resources to achieve the stated objectives.  It also provides a measure for which we can base our success.  What's more, is that it's not a once and done process.  It's ongoing and should be shared.

Quote from: CAP Producer on October 21, 2008, 02:01:11 PM
Actually there are some senior CAP PA folks that see this info and are working on addressing your concerns.

I ask that you work with your Wing and Region PAO's. We are in a position to influence the leadership and NHQ/PA. We need your input not only to your wing and Region PA's but on boards like this.

Keep it coming.

Al, you're right that we do have some NHQ PA lurkers around here, but it seems too late to turn the ship around on this.  The consensus here seems to be that combining the sites and losing the .gov site is an ill-conceived idea on somebody's part.

Unfortunately, I'm beginning to lose confidence on how open the NHQ PA folks might be to suggestions from the field even though they generally have more contact with people down at the squadron level than other departments.   

*sigh*  NHQ is on my nerves.  Soooo many reasons why this is a bad idea.

Actually, CAP is not even authorized to have a .gov domain.  You can look up the criteria and see that we clearly don't qualify to have that type of domain.  There are also many restrictions as to what you can put on a .gov site as well.  Very much a pain to operate under.  It held CAP back from doing certain things on the web without sending you to a third party linked site with a warning message.    From what I understand, you will always be able to type www.cap.gov and eventually it will take you to the new members site.

^ On the above point I have to agree, .org or .mil would be more appropriate based on the largely ignored TLD guidelines for domain names.  (granted the US husbands the .gov & .mil domains much better than the rest of those available).

Otherwise, my only issue is that we now have another WMU/eServices situation with two authoritative sources for documents, regs, etc.

When the new one went live, the old one should have been shut down immediately, and scripted to redirect to the new site.

As papapa stated that CAP was not even authorized to have .gov, could they (NHQ)
still being cleaning up after you know who.... :o

::)

Quote from: Rob G on October 29, 2008, 09:38:26 PM
As papapa stated that CAP was not even authorized to have .gov, could they (NHQ)
still being cleaning up after you know who...

No - CAP's use of the .gov domain predates HWSRN - they've been offering .gov domains to units for at least the 8-9 years I've taken notice of it.

Which also opens another question - if there is a legit issue with using the .gov domain by CAP (probably not), then chaos will ensue all over the place with other parts of the org who have chosen to use it.

Quote from: A.Member on October 21, 2008, 05:45:06 PM

I couldn't agree more.  Which is why I stated that it's my impression you do not have a good understanding of what strategic planning means.

I know and understand only too well exactally what a strategic plan is, I only would submit that such plans do little good for the majority of us since we are all more TACITICAL types.

Some here would have CAP spend 100,000s to millions on such things (ad space, companies to "clever us up," "cool" websites et al), when such amounts could provide several more aircraft, update COMM equipment and/or countless other "necessary" items to people like me who institute the tactical implementation of CAP's missions.

High ideals are great, but the realities of the tactical implementation of CAP come to a head when, instead of resources, all I'm given to offer CAP Officers in my area is "A NEW DIRECTION for CAP" a stack of papers, a "niffty" tagline and a website.

Quote from: papapa on October 29, 2008, 09:21:23 PM
Actually, CAP is not even authorized to have a .gov domain. www.cap.gov and eventually it will take you to the new members site.

That's incorrect.  We are authorized to use it.  What's more is that we even have guidelines around it's use:
http://ns1.cap.gov/

and

http://www.capddr.org/documents/u_082503080020.pdf

Whether .gov is the correct/appropriate/best high-level domain name for us to operate is another question altogether (and a valid one).  Regardless, my opinion is that our primary website address should NOT be:  www.gocivilairpatrol.com

Quote from: papapa on October 29, 2008, 09:21:23 PM...It held CAP back from doing certain things on the web without sending you to a third party linked site with a warning message.    From what I understand, you will always be able to type www.cap.gov and eventually it will take you to the new members site.

What is your source for this info?

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 29, 2008, 09:45:04 PM
Some here would have CAP spend 100,000s to millions on such things (ad space, companies to "clever us up," "cool" websites et al), when such amounts could provide several more aircraft, update COMM equipment and/or countless other "necessary" items to people like me who institute the tactical implementation of CAP's missions.

And which missions are you referring to?  The soon to be virtually non-existent SAR mission?  Or some new, yet-to-be-defined mission?   If you don't know what the mission is, how do you know what you resources are needed? 

You don't act tactically without a strategic plan.  This is basic stuff.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 29, 2008, 09:45:04 PM
Some here would have CAP spend 100,000s to millions on such things (ad space, companies to "clever us up," "cool" websites et al), when such amounts could provide several more aircraft, update COMM equipment and/or countless other "necessary" items to people like me who institute the tactical implementation of CAP's missions.

High ideals are great, but the realities of the tactical implementation of CAP come to a head when, instead of resources, all I'm given to offer CAP Officers in my area is "A NEW DIRECTION for CAP" a stack of papers, a "niffty" tagline and a website.

Maj Corrales,

Believe it or not in order to make money you need to spend money.  What matters is that the money that you invest is returned plus some on your investment.  If that spiffy new tagline or website makes people aware of who we are and what we do, chances are donations, etc will follow.  Spending thousands of dollars on an advertisement may intially tie up that money, but if the advertisement causes some company to become one of our corporate partners the investment is well worth it.

There is a reason that non-profit organizations spend HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars every year to fundraising agencies and marketing agencies.  The Southern Poverty Law Center, for example, spends millions of dollars a year on advertising and fundraising - for which they recieve much more in return.

If advertisments weren't that important, why is half of my TV show and magazine full of them?

Quote from: A.Member on October 29, 2008, 10:14:36 PMThe soon to be virtually non-existent SAR mission?

How do you figure?

And don't bother with the nonsense about the changes in Feb to the ELTs, if anything that means more work for us.

Any other unsubstantiated assertions you'd like to make?

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 29, 2008, 09:45:04 PM
...when such amounts could provide several more aircraft, update COMM equipment and/or countless other "necessary" items to people like me who institute the tactical implementation of CAP's missions.

And we do get several new aircraft every year (millions of dollars) and we just got a bunch of cash to buy new comm equipment (millions a few years ago and a couple hundred thousand this year).  CAP needs to improve their image and put bodies in positions.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2008, 10:27:29 PM

Quote from: A.Member on October 29, 2008, 10:14:36 PMThe soon to be virtually non-existent SAR mission?

How do you figure?

And don't bother with the nonsense about the changes in Feb to the ELTs, if anything that means more work for us.

Any other unsubstantiated assertions you'd like to make?

This is a discussion for another thread but how do you figure that will equate to more work?   I'd love to hear your theory.  As it stands right now, we aren't exactly overwhelmed with missions.

Quote from: A.Member on October 29, 2008, 11:46:35 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2008, 10:27:29 PM

Quote from: A.Member on October 29, 2008, 10:14:36 PMThe soon to be virtually non-existent SAR mission?

How do you figure?

And don't bother with the nonsense about the changes in Feb to the ELTs, if anything that means more work for us.

Any other unsubstantiated assertions you'd like to make?

This is a discussion for another thread but how do you figure that will equate to more work?   I'd love to hear your theory.  As it stands right now, we aren't exactly overwhelmed with missions.

Again, local perception does not equal national reality. I've had two finds in the last calendar week, and this has been a very busy year for DR in my region, not just state. 

Members of my units have recently attended the AFRCC course and had opportunity to discuss the upcoming changes.  While the incidents of ramp-rash ELTs may go down, when we are called out, because of the higher lead times, and larger areas of probablity, AFRCC is asserting that the missions will generally involve multiple aircraft and ground teams on the first pass, as opposed to most states' more conservative deployment of single teams / aircraft until things get "interesting".

There's no FAA mandate to buy the new ELT's, and no rush in the pilot communities I frequent to get them.
That means lots of old-school ELT's and plenty of overflight and FBO reports of activations.

Bottom line, AFRCC, the guys who call us out, are indicating publicly that we will be plenty busy and have more than enough to do.

And though I do not sport an Algor bumper sticker on my SUV, its obvious something is going on with the climate, whether its cyclical or man-made, its going to be more interesting before it gets quiet again.
We don't even need to leave our home AOR's anymore to do hurricane relief, we had a real-world DR for Ike's remnants in our backyard three states North.

There's also the issue of the economy.  My personal experience has been that as states get more and more lean (plus all the PD/FD that are deployed), they are reaching further into the ES resource pool for assistance.  Our low rates and relative professionalism make us very attractive as soon as they see our presentations.  Execute just once at anything close to what you promised and you start getting Christmas card from all over the place.

We now return you back to the important discussion of the fonts on the new website.

In review of the gocivilairpatrol.com site, it has a very confusing interface, weak top banner, bad navigation, sloppy code and looks like a grade schooler put it together for his or her school project.     On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being best, gocap is a 2-3 rank.  According to Quantcast, 92% of the traffic is passer-bys; only 1% are addicts (gee, I wonder why!)    It is a complete waste of money in regard to the latest free technologies available today.   With that being said, I spent this week screen capturing every CAP Wing, Region & National website & will post the good vs the bad soon.   None of them are good actually.  The conclusion is the fact that 99% of the sites have outdated interfaces, horrific graphics, default language phrases, bad fonts, use of frames, security exploits, mispelled words, old contact info, deprecated code, general info that relates to National but not to the member & lots of worthless info/links, lots of legal disclaimers that nobody ever reads, no features that are useful to the member (meaning blogs, forum, etc)  and few discuss what there personal unit is all about.   And I saw quite a few Squadron websites with purple & pink backgrounds; what is there deal, the Civil Femme Patrol!  No offense to females - pink, purple colors can be worthy if used properly though.   If "Joe" wants to read about the 3 missions of CAP, he can go to National site; Joe wants to know what YOUR unit is all about and what YOUR unit does locally.   CAP websites would convey to the average "joe" that this organization is not with it, not an innovator & is a mess.

The absolute worst CAP Sites are Montana Wing, Oklahoma Wing; the rest are quite bad as well.  Pennsylvania Wing was good with it's simple, clean interface and had useful info but needs many improvements as well.   If anyone has an IT badge for Montana or Oklahoma Wing, it's only fair if you turn your badge in until these sites are vastly improved.   Why, because the developers of those two wing sites should be tarred and feathered (j/k)...they don't deserve to wear the IT badge, period!  I was surprised to see Wing websites such as California, Texas, New York, Georgia & other Wings with lots of resources, members and funds, appear to be quite bad too.  Georgia site is awful with a terrible outdated interface; California has some cool features but the design and graphics are typical 1990's era.   Texas should be ashamed; New York, well, your just as bad as Texas too.  As for other Wing, Region sites specifically not mentioned, your not out of the woods, there terrible too.  Too many to list....

Most CAP sites tend to use Joomla (#1), Drupal, DotNetNuke, WYSIWYG Templates, WordPress & other newb CMS systems.   All of these CMS systems have lots of free, better templates.  Why don't you get your cadets to select the website interface or template.  In fact, let the cadets develop the sites instead because the majority of the IT's in CAP are terrible!  The Internet Technology Officer Guide for Dummies....mostly worthless jargon unrelated to web development (ex. 7. mentoring cadets with concepts of IT - who wrote this ****).

Some Solutions:  Social Network Sites are the hottest trend on the net today and CAP should take advantage of it.  CAP Members need a site where they can congregate, meet friends, have personal blogs, discuss things in a forum, spotlight top members , rave new promotions & recognition, have updated news, open community involvment, light censorship and so forth.   Big sites are like a dominoe effect, once the community gets active and meaningful, they get bigger and bigger over time especially if the site has open source API resources available to the members to develop sites on their own to promote CAP and their units as well as create new features, widgets, etc.    CAP needs a teamwork environment that promotes awareness, recruiting & retention. 

Think of America's Army Social Community site that the US Army started in 2002; that in itself has created a massive worldwide community with a strong following to this day.    America's Army is very well organized, has more of a horizontal chain of command and has a very large active comminty with lots of features and current events.    Give the member a genuine sense of belonging and it will grow a thousand fold quickly!

Why pay for it when one can get it for free..... in order to get the IT Badge, the trainee must develop, maintain a unit website with certain requirements that must be met, many colleges require their students to develop a website in order to graduate, lots of members in CAP are very good at new technologies in regard to front end, back end & graphics (utilize the membership - give members a sense of belonging & light recognition & you'd be surprised in what they would do w/out costing CAP a dime), offer incentives such as a medal or ribbon for cadets, seniors, have a contest (I'll even supply the prizes),  member reward leaderboards on site, promote the worthy IT's as site moderators and so on.  Just dont require coders, graphics members to have college degrees & certifications because I have found among the great minds of today, that the best coders in the world do not possess or care about any of those things.     

And, any good PAO knows that 90% of Advertising, Marketing is free.  CAP doesn't need to spend millions of dollars on this & that.   Drug reduction program is one example of wasteful spending.   Seniors praise the program but kids rebel!  Instill core values, accountability, mentoring and drugs are not an issue.    Today, most kids and young adults are very tech savoy and the CAP websites tend to push them away but we need to exploit this technology today.   If CAP wants to spend money, hire the Google guys not some old line IBM workers....

Why do we need good websites?  Simple fact, the world buys 85% of their goods on the net today.  140 million+ Americans play online games and communicate via the web mostly on cells, myspace, social sites, etc.  Most everything we do today is connected to technology, the internet, communication, etc.   Either get with the times, or fade out like most programs that never or rarely innovative.    CAP has been hovering around the 50,000 to 65,000 members for the past 20+ years.  Obvoiusly, something is not working (most likely 'old timers' manning the PAO at the Nat/Region/Wing Levels) because growth has been little to nothing.   And most people think CAP died in the WWII era or have never heard about us which gives us little to no credibility in regard to missions especially with EMA's and other gov't heads because they don't know what CAP is.   

More members equal more manpower, more resources, more funds, more equipment, more awareness & retention, more benefits and so on.   CAP needs a 21st century mindset or it will seize to exist in the future.  Everyone in CAP would benefit from better websites and positive awareness , from the tactical mindset guys training the basics, logistics/comm. adding new tech with the large influx of money coming in, and so on.   Everyone has a role, we just need to stop talking, and start doing.  And as for the CAP websites at the Region & Wing levels, there is no excuse to have such pathetic sites up.  Just my three cents worth....

^ Don't bother, we know they are bad.

And for the love of whatever Lord you hold dear, CAP does NOT need to wade into the time wasting cesspool of social networking.

Eclipse, your response is typical of the "old mindset" that only stagnates CAP.   Social networks work despite what you may think.  Not suggesting to clone MySpace, Facebook, etc....CAP would benefit with  a social site specifically designed and developed for CAP members in mind.   Stay in your cave if you don't want to partake in one.   The new generations of CAP members are very tech oriented and a bad presence on the net tends to give CAP a bad image. 

I'm a fairly frequent critic of CAP web pages, though based more on appearance and stale content than how they were put together, but would probably agree with flexcoder about the oddity of some of our biggest wings having some of the worst sites.

However, I'm not surprised that gocivilairpatrol doesn't have a lot of repeat visitors.  Until this month it was supposed to be a recruiting site and you would not expect many people to return to it numerous times. 

Yes, I forgot "new" = "good", my mistake.

You're reading this on all the "social network" CAP needs - our goal should be to try and get our people OFF the computer and outside, not encourage more LOLCATZ.

What people tend to forget is that we are looking for physical participation during the exact time that these social networking sites consume our members - nights and weekends.

I'm not "old mindset", what I am is sad to see the pinnacle of human technology turned into a place for people to show off their bad behavior, abandon what little grammar understanding they may have assimilated, and update their "friends" on what they are having for lunch.

Blow us away with your l33t hax0r skills and give us a URL of a website you developed.  With such criticism, you must be one heck of a webmaster.  So... show us, great one.

Quote from: FlexCoder on October 30, 2008, 02:40:10 AM
In review of the gocivilairpatrol.com site, it has a very confusing interface, weak top banner, bad navigation, sloppy code and looks like a grade schooler put it together for his or her school project.     On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being best, gocap is a 2-3 rank.  According to Quantcast, 92% of the traffic is passer-bys; only 1% are addicts (gee, I wonder why!)    It is a complete waste of money in regard to the latest free technologies available today.   With that being said, I spent this week screen capturing every CAP Wing, Region & National website & will post the good vs the bad soon.   None of them are good actually.  The conclusion is the fact that 99% of the sites have outdated interfaces, horrific graphics, default language phrases, bad fonts, use of frames, security exploits, mispelled words, old contact info, deprecated code, general info that relates to National but not to the member & lots of worthless info/links, lots of legal disclaimers that nobody ever reads, no features that are useful to the member (meaning blogs, forum, etc)  and few discuss what there personal unit is all about.   And I saw quite a few Squadron websites with purple & pink backgrounds; what is there deal, the Civil Femme Patrol!  No offense to females - pink, purple colors can be worthy if used properly though.   If "Joe" wants to read about the 3 missions of CAP, he can go to National site; Joe wants to know what YOUR unit is all about and what YOUR unit does locally.   CAP websites would convey to the average "joe" that this organization is not with it, not an innovator & is a mess.

The absolute worst CAP Sites are Montana Wing, Oklahoma Wing; the rest are quite bad as well.  Pennsylvania Wing was good with it's simple, clean interface and had useful info but needs many improvements as well.   If anyone has an IT badge for Montana or Oklahoma Wing, it's only fair if you turn your badge in until these sites are vastly improved.   Why, because the developers of those two wing sites should be tarred and feathered (j/k)...they don't deserve to wear the IT badge, period!  I was surprised to see Wing websites such as California, Texas, New York, Georgia & other Wings with lots of resources, members and funds, appear to be quite bad too.  Georgia site is awful with a terrible outdated interface; California has some cool features but the design and graphics are typical 1990's era.   Texas should be ashamed; New York, well, your just as bad as Texas too.  As for other Wing, Region sites specifically not mentioned, your not out of the woods, there terrible too.  Too many to list....

Most CAP sites tend to use Joomla (#1), Drupal, DotNetNuke, WYSIWYG Templates, WordPress & other newb CMS systems.   All of these CMS systems have lots of free, better templates.  Why don't you get your cadets to select the website interface or template.  In fact, let the cadets develop the sites instead because the majority of the IT's in CAP are terrible!  The Internet Technology Officer Guide for Dummies....mostly worthless jargon unrelated to web development (ex. 7. mentoring cadets with concepts of IT - who wrote this ****).

Some Solutions:  Social Network Sites are the hottest trend on the net today and CAP should take advantage of it.  CAP Members need a site where they can congregate, meet friends, have personal blogs, discuss things in a forum, spotlight top members , rave new promotions & recognition, have updated news, open community involvment, light censorship and so forth.   Big sites are like a dominoe effect, once the community gets active and meaningful, they get bigger and bigger over time especially if the site has open source API resources available to the members to develop sites on their own to promote CAP and their units as well as create new features, widgets, etc.    CAP needs a teamwork environment that promotes awareness, recruiting & retention. 

Think of America's Army Social Community site that the US Army started in 2002; that in itself has created a massive worldwide community with a strong following to this day.    America's Army is very well organized, has more of a horizontal chain of command and has a very large active comminty with lots of features and current events.    Give the member a genuine sense of belonging and it will grow a thousand fold quickly!

Why pay for it when one can get it for free..... in order to get the IT Badge, the trainee must develop, maintain a unit website with certain requirements that must be met, many colleges require their students to develop a website in order to graduate, lots of members in CAP are very good at new technologies in regard to front end, back end & graphics (utilize the membership - give members a sense of belonging & light recognition & you'd be surprised in what they would do w/out costing CAP a dime), offer incentives such as a medal or ribbon for cadets, seniors, have a contest (I'll even supply the prizes),  member reward leaderboards on site, promote the worthy IT's as site moderators and so on.  Just dont require coders, graphics members to have college degrees & certifications because I have found among the great minds of today, that the best coders in the world do not possess or care about any of those things.     

And, any good PAO knows that 90% of Advertising, Marketing is free.  CAP doesn't need to spend millions of dollars on this & that.   Drug reduction program is one example of wasteful spending.   Seniors praise the program but kids rebel!  Instill core values, accountability, mentoring and drugs are not an issue.    Today, most kids and young adults are very tech savoy and the CAP websites tend to push them away but we need to exploit this technology today.   If CAP wants to spend money, hire the Google guys not some old line IBM workers....

Why do we need good websites?  Simple fact, the world buys 85% of their goods on the net today.  140 million+ Americans play online games and communicate via the web mostly on cells, myspace, social sites, etc.  Most everything we do today is connected to technology, the internet, communication, etc.   Either get with the times, or fade out like most programs that never or rarely innovative.    CAP has been hovering around the 50,000 to 65,000 members for the past 20+ years.  Obvoiusly, something is not working (most likely 'old timers' manning the PAO at the Nat/Region/Wing Levels) because growth has been little to nothing.   And most people think CAP died in the WWII era or have never heard about us which gives us little to no credibility in regard to missions especially with EMA's and other gov't heads because they don't know what CAP is.   

More members equal more manpower, more resources, more funds, more equipment, more awareness & retention, more benefits and so on.   CAP needs a 21st century mindset or it will seize to exist in the future.  Everyone in CAP would benefit from better websites and positive awareness , from the tactical mindset guys training the basics, logistics/comm. adding new tech with the large influx of money coming in, and so on.   Everyone has a role, we just need to stop talking, and start doing.  And as for the CAP websites at the Region & Wing levels, there is no excuse to have such pathetic sites up.  Just my three cents worth....

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 02:47:19 AM
...CAP does NOT need to wade into the time wasting cesspool of social networking.

Amen!  They serve a purpose and have a place but not in this organization and not on our servers!

And FlexCoder, if you're going to criticize spelling and grammar on Wing sites, the least you could do is use spell check.  It too is free - just click the button.

Eclipse, you are "old mindset" with that attitude....I wish you luck on trying to get a typical kid away from his xbox to go drill or hump a ruck through the woods!    It's unfortunate that the majority of youth are glued to those activities but why not exploit those areas and then you can take them out in the field and  teach them the lessons of the land.  Our society today spends most of their time on the internet, communicating with cells, congregating at social sites and so on.  I am not suggesting that we should take away the physical activities of CAP which are a very important part of CAP but that is only a part of CAP and CAP needs better awareness and more members as well.   And the social network idea is not what CAP only needs....a lot more to it then that.   I have been fortunate to be around some of the great minds & coders that have created some of the top sites that we take for granted today and once you've been around that crowd, you'd understand more of what I am talking about.   In the very near future everything will be connected via the internet and if CAP focuses on the opposite,and does not innovate,  it will most likely be too late later and as a result, be extinct!  However, CAP needs people like you that have a mindset to get them off their butts and out in the field too.  Everyone has a role, from the ground pounders to the IT folks!

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 02:47:19 AM
And for the love of whatever Lord you hold dear, CAP does NOT need to wade into the time wasting cesspool of social networking.

Yeah, God forbid Civil Air Patrol goes and markets to our potential members (particularly cadets) where they are already hanging out.  Facebook, with 100 million active users, and it's advertising system allowing geotargeting, profile keyword targeting, age and gender targeting, etc., is by far an untapped tool.  

Marketing 101 -- advertise where your target audience already is hanging out/reading/spending time/etc.  Social networking is where America's youth (and surprisingly also, the fastest growing segment, 30 to 45-year-olds) is spending time.  We wouldn't want to "wade into the that cesspool" of potential!   ::)

Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 29, 2008, 10:19:57 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 29, 2008, 09:45:04 PM
Some here would have CAP spend 100,000s to millions on such things (ad space, companies to "clever us up," "cool" websites et al), when such amounts could provide several more aircraft, update COMM equipment and/or countless other "necessary" items to people like me who institute the tactical implementation of CAP's missions.

High ideals are great, but the realities of the tactical implementation of CAP come to a head when, instead of resources, all I'm given to offer CAP Officers in my area is "A NEW DIRECTION for CAP" a stack of papers, a "niffty" tagline and a website.

Maj Corrales,

Believe it or not in order to make money you need to spend money.  What matters is that the money that you invest is returned plus some on your investment.  If that spiffy new tagline or website makes people aware of who we are and what we do, chances are donations, etc will follow.  Spending thousands of dollars on an advertisement may intially tie up that money, but if the advertisement causes some company to become one of our corporate partners the investment is well worth it.

There is a reason that non-profit organizations spend HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars every year to fundraising agencies and marketing agencies.  The Southern Poverty Law Center, for example, spends millions of dollars a year on advertising and fundraising - for which they recieve much more in return.

If advertisments weren't that important, why is half of my TV show and magazine full of them?

You know, your right (sarcastic)  The commericial for CSX and Northfolk Southern I saw earlier today makes me just want to ship a load of cargo across the nation.  PLUS, I can also ask my doctor about LIPITOR or whatever because AD people know more about my medical problems that I or my doctor ever could.

Why couldn't I have seen this sooner!!!

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 03:41:43 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 02:47:19 AM
And for the love of whatever Lord you hold dear, CAP does NOT need to wade into the time wasting cesspool of social networking.

Yeah, God forbid Civil Air Patrol goes and markets to our potential members (particularly cadets) where they are already hanging out.  Facebook, with 100 million active users, and it's advertising system allowing geotargeting, profile keyword targeting, age and gender targeting, etc., is by far an untapped tool.  

Marketing 101 -- advertise where your target audience already is hanging out/reading/spending time/etc.  Social networking is where America's youth (and surprisingly also, the fastest growing segment, 30 to 45-year-olds) is spending time.  We wouldn't want to "wade into the that cesspool" of potential!   ::)

Perhaps that the Marketing class that was across the road from the ECONOMICS CLASS of those responsible for the latest collapses in the Economy.

First of all, the fine yound website "goCAP" is mostly blocked by our school's filering system.

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 03:41:43 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 02:47:19 AM
And for the love of whatever Lord you hold dear, CAP does NOT need to wade into the time wasting cesspool of social networking.

Yeah, God forbid Civil Air Patrol goes and markets to our potential members (particularly cadets) where they are already hanging out.  Facebook, with 100 million active users, and it's advertising system allowing geotargeting, profile keyword targeting, age and gender targeting, etc., is by far an untapped tool.  

Marketing 101 -- advertise where your target audience already is hanging out/reading/spending time/etc.  Social networking is where America's youth (and surprisingly also, the fastest growing segment, 30 to 45-year-olds) is spending time.  We wouldn't want to "wade into the that cesspool" of potential!   ::)

Marketing/advertising is one thing.  Hosting is something altogether different.  That is what FlexCoder was suggesting. 

Much of the discussion thus far was around the idea that we need to refocus the organization.  Social networking and the proposed idea from FlexCoder, if utilized, would only add to the issue.   What's more, is that truly our target market?  You'd need some solid evidence to convince me.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 30, 2008, 03:44:12 AM

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 03:41:43 AM
Marketing 101 -- advertise where your target audience already is hanging out/reading/spending time/etc.  Social networking is where America's youth (and surprisingly also, the fastest growing segment, 30 to 45-year-olds) is spending time.  We wouldn't want to "wade into the that cesspool" of potential!   ::)

Perhaps that the Marketing class that was across the road from the ECONOMICS CLASS of those responsible for the latest collapses in the Economy.

What crack do you smoke?  I gotta remember to stay away from whatever that stuff is...   ::)

Quote from: A.Member on October 29, 2008, 10:14:36 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 29, 2008, 09:45:04 PM
Some here would have CAP spend 100,000s to millions on such things (ad space, companies to "clever us up," "cool" websites et al), when such amounts could provide several more aircraft, update COMM equipment and/or countless other "necessary" items to people like me who institute the tactical implementation of CAP's missions.

And which missions are you referring to?  The soon to be virtually non-existent SAR mission?  Or some new, yet-to-be-defined mission?   If you don't know what the mission is, how do you know what you resources are needed? 

You don't act tactically without a strategic plan.  This is basic stuff.

OK, let hear your plan...were waiting?  

We have three missions; need I quote them here?  ES, AE & CP. We know what the missions are.   "Cookie cutter" plans drafted in Alabama or outsourced (to where would you outsource?  China?) aren't going to work in a reality where 52 Wings have very different local needs.

You cannot implement a strategic plan without factoring in the tactical ability.

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 03:41:43 AM
Marketing 101 -- advertise where your target audience already is hanging out/reading/spending time/etc.  Social networking is where America's youth (and surprisingly also, the fastest growing segment, 30 to 45-year-olds) is spending time.  We wouldn't want to "wade into the that cesspool" of potential! 

100 million active users?  Actually, its more like 132 Million, however thats worldwide.

In the US its about 32 Million for Facebook and 72 Million for MySpace.

You want to buy some ad words on Google, knock yourself out, but building a "community"? No thanks.
FB and MS are not "communities" - they are 1-liner update sites for people with too much time on their hands who think everyone needs to know what everyone else is doing.

Its a place for people who believe having drama in their personal lives is a good thing, and anyone cares what kind of "semi-automatic weapon you are..."  Where the number of people in your "friends" list somehow increases your worth as a person.  (so sad).

"'Sup DAWG? Online 2nite?  A Shout our at cha girlyfriend to all my HOMIES in the hood"!

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 30, 2008, 03:53:04 AM
You cannot implement a strategic plan without factoring in the tactical ability.

The Wings are responsible for taking the strategic vision of where Civil Air Patrol is going as an organization, and create a localized strategic and semi-tactical plan for how that implements in their neck of the woods.  Yes, that will vary greatly.  For example, some Wings serve as their states primary SAR agency, some states never call CAP.  Squadrons take it further and, being fully "tactical" implement their own plans at the rubber-meets-road level, on how they will accomplish CAP's three missions and ultimate vision given the resources and challenges they have to work with, in their particular situation.

Doesn't mean that National strategic planning in all fields in unimportant.  It still guides the tactical planning that will occur at lower echelons.  And it must be in place, otherwise the tactical plans will be fractured, pulling in 100 different directions, for 200 different reasons, and creating divisions, additional hurdles, and dis-unity to name a few issues.  

Executive management is not the same as local leadership - it has its own set of unique problems to deal with.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 30, 2008, 03:53:04 AM
You cannot implement a strategic plan without factoring in the tactical ability.

With all due respect, the discussion is going no where constructive.  It's clear you do not understand the concept.  Aside from offering the suggestion to enroll in an independent (outside of CAP) course on planning and management, I don't know what other constructive advice I could offer.  

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 03:52:33 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 30, 2008, 03:44:12 AM

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 03:41:43 AM
Marketing 101 -- advertise where your target audience already is hanging out/reading/spending time/etc.  Social networking is where America's youth (and surprisingly also, the fastest growing segment, 30 to 45-year-olds) is spending time.  We wouldn't want to "wade into the that cesspool" of potential!   ::)

Perhaps that the Marketing class that was across the road from the ECONOMICS CLASS of those responsible for the latest collapses in the Economy.

What crack do you smoke?  I gotta remember to stay away from whatever that stuff is...   ::)

I would suggest (strongly) that you delete that last statement, I had assumed you could a professional about things here.  I find your statement insulting and childish.  

My point was that so called "experts" are often not so.  Ya'll seem to think that making some "grand plan" or spending umpteen thousand dollars on some plan devised by "experts" will be the salvation of CAP.

The solution is found in the volunteers.  Those of quality like you and myself.  Fancy websites, arcane plans and cheese catch phrases are not going to get the missions flown.  Once you step aside from the blinding  lantern of your professional and come to realize that if certain Northeastern CAP Officers and Cadets that shovel snow aren't valued over things like "More than meets the Sky" then the priorities are askew!!!

Quote from: A.Member on October 30, 2008, 03:59:18 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 30, 2008, 03:53:04 AM
You cannot implement a strategic plan without factoring in the tactical ability.

With all due respect, the discussion is going no where constructive.  It's clear you do not understand the concept.  Aside from offering the suggestion to enroll in an independent (outside of CAP) course on planning and management, I don't know what other constructive advice I could offer.  

Insufficient!  I suggest that someone who is so vocal about the PLAN (and its Messianic Prowess to SAVE CAP) have more to offer than "pass the buck to some AD AGENCY."

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 30, 2008, 04:03:16 AM

Quote from: A.Member on October 30, 2008, 03:59:18 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 30, 2008, 03:53:04 AM
You cannot implement a strategic plan without factoring in the tactical ability.

With all due respect, the discussion is going no where constructive.  It's clear you do not understand the concept.  Aside from offering the suggestion to enroll in an independent (outside of CAP) course on planning and management, I don't know what other constructive advice I could offer.  

Insufficient!  I suggest that someone who is so vocal about the PLAN (and its Messianic Prowess to SAVE CAP) have more to offer than "pass the buck to some AD AGENCY."

Call it whatever you want.  Again, the conversation has lost any constructive value at this point.  You can lead a horse to water...  I wish you well.

p.s. I was sincere in the suggestion that you take some classes on planning and management.  It would serve you well if you were able to grasp some of the core concepts.

Quote from: A.Member on October 30, 2008, 04:05:17 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 30, 2008, 04:03:16 AM

Quote from: A.Member on October 30, 2008, 03:59:18 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 30, 2008, 03:53:04 AM
You cannot implement a strategic plan without factoring in the tactical ability.

With all due respect, the discussion is going no where constructive.  It's clear you do not understand the concept.  Aside from offering the suggestion to enroll in an independent (outside of CAP) course on planning and management, I don't know what other constructive advice I could offer.  

Insufficient!  I suggest that someone who is so vocal about the PLAN (and its Messianic Prowess to SAVE CAP) have more to offer than "pass the buck to some AD AGENCY."

Again, the conversation has lost any constructive value at this point.  You can lead a horse to water...  I wish you well.

You are correct, once I asked you for "substance" you simply "took your game ball home and didn't want to play anymore."

You, from my perspective have been insulting and patronizing to me.  This is somewhat distastful when it is clear you lack the fact about my personal educations and motives. 

We are at an end with this, nothing further will be written en re the matter.  I look forward to reaching some consensus on some matter with you sometime.

P.S. As for classes, commanding a resource starved CAP unit for two years (with continued growth every year) is enough education in these matters.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 03:54:46 AM
FB and MS are not "communities" - they are 1-liner update sites for people with too much time on their hands who think everyone needs to know what everyone else is doing.

Its a place for people who believe having drama in their personal lives is a good thing, and anyone cares what kind of "semi-automatic weapon you are..."  Where the number of people in your "friends" list somehow increases your worth as a person.  (so sad).

As sad as you think Facebook and Myspace are, our current cadets spend time on there and our future cadets do. Just because we think "kids waste too much time there!" or "them glitter GIFs are silly!" doesn't mitigate the fact that a ton of potential cadets (good ones, even) are spending time on these sites.   And we can reach more of them by engaging them there.  Doesn't mean we need to spend inordinate amounts of time or resources to do it.

I put together a Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/fulton-NY/Civil-Air-Patrol-NY408/72131210160) for my squadron.  I use targeted ads that only get shown to kids 13 to 18 in my geographic region, and only those with certain keywords/interests listed in their profiles.  By constantly showing my ads to the teenagers most likely to join a program like CAP, I can surmise that my marketing will be more effective (than advertising to a non-targeted audience).  A couple of those targeted teenagers, from my geographical area, view our page each day.  That's more than I can say for most unit websites. Took me one evening to set-up our page, upload photos and videos, set-up the facebook ads and it runs itself.  I just login to check stats from time to time, and make sure any potential leads are followed-up with.  Somehow, miraculously, I'm not sucked in to making glittering animated GIFs and LOLZCATS and whatever else you're afraid of associating yourself with.

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 04:17:13 AM
I put together a Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/fulton-NY/Civil-Air-Patrol-NY408/72131210160) for my squadron.  I use targeted ads that only get shown to kids 13 to 18 in my geographic region, and only those with certain keywords/interests listed in their profiles.  By constantly showing my ads to the teenagers most likely to join a program like CAP, I can surmise that my marketing will be more effective (than advertising to a non-targeted audience).  A couple of those targeted teenagers, from my geographical area, view our page each day.  That's more than I can say for most unit websites. Took me one evening to set-up our page, upload photos and videos, set-up the facebook ads and it runs itself.  I just login to check stats from time to time, and make sure any potential leads are followed-up with.  Somehow, miraculously, I'm not sucked in to making glittering animated GIFs and LOLZCATS and whatever else you're afraid of associating yourself with.

Have they joined your squadron?  What is it's true effectiveness?  Views are one thing.  Gaining a commited member is another. 

Quote from: A.Member on October 30, 2008, 04:35:54 AM

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 04:17:13 AM
I put together a Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/fulton-NY/Civil-Air-Patrol-NY408/72131210160) for my squadron.  I use targeted ads that only get shown to kids 13 to 18 in my geographic region, and only those with certain keywords/interests listed in their profiles.  By constantly showing my ads to the teenagers most likely to join a program like CAP, I can surmise that my marketing will be more effective (than advertising to a non-targeted audience).  A couple of those targeted teenagers, from my geographical area, view our page each day.  That's more than I can say for most unit websites. Took me one evening to set-up our page, upload photos and videos, set-up the facebook ads and it runs itself.  I just login to check stats from time to time, and make sure any potential leads are followed-up with.  Somehow, miraculously, I'm not sucked in to making glittering animated GIFs and LOLZCATS and whatever else you're afraid of associating yourself with.

Have they joined your squadron?  What is it's true effectiveness?  Views are one thing.  Gaining a commited member is another. 

Well said!

If anyone ever needs any free help in regard to their websites, let me know anytime. 

I have been in CAP for over 24 years both as a Cadet & as a Senior.    I am around some of the most influential people & web developers of today and have seen or participated in several, really cool innovations that would benefit CAP greatly.   I understand both viewpoints but CAP needs a 21st century mindset to survive into the next century. 

However, the old mindset is important in learning the basic fundamentals of ground team & air ops training.   One can't always count on a GPS, a basic no-tech compass is an essential tool & skill that a member must be proficient with.    You can't have one or the other, you need the old & the new but when it comes to public relations, marketing, recruiting, etc, we need to utilize some of the high-tech trends of today though. 

Do you think the Boy Scouts sit back & tinker with the ways of the old, no, they do there research & exploit markets that help them get bigger & stronger.   And most of us that truly luv the CAP program do not want to see CAP only on ebay later.  Whether it be social networking or something else trendy, we need to take advantage of it.  I am a team player, I want to give something back to CAP like most of you do since it has done a lot of great things for me over the years.  It would be better time spent to start fixing each Wing website, devise a good plan for the National site with member involvment than to ponder on who is right and who is wrong.  And if you want statistics about the current trends, more than welcome to disclose any of that info.   I have extensive knowledge & research in regard to the latest trends & interfaces on the net.  It is imperative that I keep up with the trends and what's hot and what's not to be competitive in today's society.  And I am not a hacker for having acquired knowledge, skills in advanced web development.   Hackers are criminals that want to destroy, create problems & disrespect code... web developers respect coding, innovate & solve problems.   Big difference!

Most of the Wing websites need basic CSS, add-ons, better graphics, a personal touch, code updated or fixed & other easy fixes.   I feel bad for the Wings that have a bad site, as a team, we need to fix them.  Remember, if they look bad, we all look bad!  And when Edison was proposing the lightbulb in the late 1890's, most people thought it was a stupid idea.....without light, where would we be today..... 8)

You have to start with the assumption that a wing even needs a public-facing website.  I would argue they don't.  That, frankly, is the single underlying fallacy and problem with the web - people and organizations who believe a web presence is required and have no content to share publicly, thus no actual need for a website.

The need to fill dead air is what propagates the problems with FB & MS (and Twitter and others).

Wings don't recruit members, neither do Regions or Groups, only local units recruit members.

Most Wings and Regions have little information the general public would even be interested in, so beyond a general, static, contact page, anything else is gravy, which is why they go stale so fast.

No one will argue that our units need a better web presence and PA efforts, but FB or MS are not the answer, and there simply isn't enough day-to-day activity at local units for DYNAMIC! EXCITING! web pages, nor are there enough people willing to keep the content fresh.

Even the "blogosphere" is more a "cut-and-paste-osphere".  Every day there are about 10 compelling, original stories or news articles in a given field, and the rest of the world just links back or endlessly, monotonously, comments on those same ten articles.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 05:24:42 AM
The need to fill dead air is what propagates the problems with FB & MS (and Twitter and others).

I agree to an extent. The problems that come along with Facebook and MySpace personal memberships are horrible. But I believe a squadron membership would do a great justice. Over the past year that I have had a personal membership with Facebook, I have posted a variety of CAP related pictures, stories, etc. This funny thing happened...my friends started asking questions :o. After almost four years of membership, I have yet to be able to recruit one of my friends. Most of them thought the idea of CAP was stupid. Within the past year, several have joined. Most teens don't care about personal experiences or the details about the program. They care about a cool looking photo and a way to make them look just as cool. Trust me on this...I'm 19 years old. If a squadron were to create memberships (like several of them have), post pictures and videos of their cadets and SMs taken by cadets (sometimes SMs)...people would become interested. I know several of my friends spend hours a week just looking up random groups on Facebook. The squadron membership would keep the problems that plague personal accounts away. Just make sure that more than one person has access to the account and that EVERYBODY (cadets and SMs) moderates it so that nothing gets out of hand.

If you want to recruit the youth, have the youth recruit. Have the Squadron Commander or the DCC talk to the parents...not a Recruiting Officer.

First off, I didn't assume, I clearly stated the facts, Eclipse.   There is plenty of content to add & keep a site fresh on a weekly basis.   Recruiting new CAP members is at all levels of CAP not just the local units.  You obviously haven't been in CAP that long to understand that fact.   Plus, the Wing site should lead by example and be the top site in the Wing.   How can a Wing IT mentor to cadets & seniors at a squadron level when the Wing site is absolutely terrible!
In regard to the Wing websites current condition, most passer-bys would move on.   Ever think about what the CAP members may need or want to in regard to a website.  Whether the site be local, Wing or Region level, only a few are of any use to anyone.   Let's change that!  MySpace, Facebook are not the main answer but they do help people become aware of CAP.  Look at those sites as tools or extensions to help promote CAP moreso.  And I do agree with you that you should only have a presence on the web if it is of use to the member & the general public otherwise it is a waste of dead air.  

Surprisingly, blogs are a very useful tool, a great way to advertise CAP for free.  Some of the top websites used certain blogs to get there site known and it works wonders if one can become a member of some of the blogs that have big media & marketing influence.

 Perhaps it's too soon to deride social networking... the intelligence community has set up a 'secure' site for info-sharing re: the War on Terror.

Quote from: FlexCoder on October 30, 2008, 05:55:27 AM
First off, I didn't assume, I clearly stated the facts, Eclipse.   There is plenty of content to add & keep a site fresh on a weekly basis.   Recruiting new CAP members is at all levels of CAP not just the local units.  You obviously haven't been in CAP that long to understand that fact.

Such as? 

Being a noob I would like your enlightenment, especially considering that in the month of September, for example, there were only about 100 stories posted on CAP news, total - that works out to be an average of 2 stories per month, per wing.

Quote from: FlexCoder on October 30, 2008, 05:09:13 AM
If anyone ever needs any free help in regard to their websites, let me know anytime. 

I'll bite, and I'll start with what I hope is a simple question.  I cannot develop a website with a traditional CMS because I cannot justify the expense of ongoing hosting fees to my squadron finance committee.  I know that the fees aren't THAT expensive, but the simple truth is that there are other, more important, things that we need to be spending our limited funds on.  I have looked into Office Live and the Google offerings but have found their templates to be too restrictive (and unattractive) for my tastes.  With those preliminaries out of the way, here's the question:

Are there any CMS-like systems that operate on a local PC, producing an FTP-ready site that can be uploaded to the hosting server?

Quote from: NC Hokie on October 30, 2008, 12:58:13 PMI cannot develop a website with a traditional CMS because I cannot justify the expense of ongoing hosting fees to my squadron finance committee. 

An excellent point - not insurmountable, but valid.

There are units all over with zero budget and $5 a month actually is an issue. Saying it shouldn't be doesn't change that.  Hosting isn't free, and having an ad-sponsored site is just as unprofessional as having one made in FrontPage. (plus in some cases it may violate the applicable regs for content).

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 01:27:38 PM

Quote from: NC Hokie on October 30, 2008, 12:58:13 PMI cannot develop a website with a traditional CMS because I cannot justify the expense of ongoing hosting fees to my squadron finance committee. 

An excellent point - not insurmountable, but valid.

There are units all over with zero budget and $5 a month actually is an issue. Saying it shouldn't be doesn't change that.  Hosting isn't free, and having an ad-sponsored site is just as unprofessional as having one made in FrontPage. (plus in some cases it may violate the applicable regs for content).

Yet another supporting point for why National should be hosting unit websites, operating off a mandatory template system like the Air Force mandates for subordinate unit sites.  Thus, one less expense and one less hurdle for units to have to cross.

But as Maj Carrales has pointed out several times, there's no sense in putting together anything at the national level for this sort of stuff because units are the only echelon that does things and national-level strategery couldn't possibly help the units carry out their missions.   ;)

Good point Major... if the goCAP site is getting blocked in the workplace & or education environment that is a major problem and needs attention!

Also

They might want to create a less intensive website for those still on dial up or limited resourced networks (library's etc) -(Not as much as an immediate problem?)

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 01:35:07 PM
Yet another supporting point for why National should be hosting unit websites, operating off a mandatory template system like the Air Force mandates for subordinate unit sites.  Thus, one less expense and one less hurdle for units to have to cross.

A 5 second Google search and I found a hosting solution that would cost about $35,000 annually to host unlimited domains and unlimited data.  That assuming a need to host2,500 squadron template sites
http://www.inmotionhosting.com/hostingplans.html

Now all we need is for someone to design a good worthy template.

Quote from: cnitas on October 30, 2008, 04:18:37 PM

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 01:35:07 PM
Yet another supporting point for why National should be hosting unit websites, operating off a mandatory template system like the Air Force mandates for subordinate unit sites.  Thus, one less expense and one less hurdle for units to have to cross.

A 5 second Google search and I found a hosting solution that would cost about $35,000 annually to host unlimited domains and unlimited data.  That assuming a need to host2,500 squadron template sites
http://www.inmotionhosting.com/hostingplans.html

Now all we need is for someone to design a good worthy template.

And manage access, which would be a full time job for several people...

???

You're talking about server access for hundreds of units, other echelons, special activities and similar.

Thousands of accounts, access rights, trouble shooting bad code, and probably policing content.

This is not something that could be rolled out or supported on a part-time basis.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 05:52:40 PM
You're talking about server access for hundreds of units, other echelons, special activities and similar.

Thousands of accounts, access rights,

Don't we already have a system set-up with WSAs managing user permissions for a certain type of CAP online account, and also designating automatic permissions of certain things for commanders and other duty assignments at each echelon?  What makes you think it couldn't be build into the existing structure so efficiently managed by our volunteers at present date?

Quotetrouble shooting bad code,

Not an issue when it's WYSIWYG CMS that only allows plain text entries into the management interface, automatically resizes photo uploads, etc.  Not as expensive as you think, either.  I got a custom CMS for our company's site and it was well within reason.

Quoteand probably policing content.

Again, why should shifting the hosting from private to provided make it any different than now?  NHQ doesn't monitor compliance, content, etc. on unit sites.  With a sufficiently narrow template that allows units to enter events, news stories, photos and staff member names there isn't much possibility to enter inappropriate content.   As it is with everything else we do, the onus rests on the commander at that echelon to "get it right" whether it's a website, a media release, a squadron flyer or a news interview.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 05:52:40 PMThis is not something that could be rolled out or supported on a part-time basis.

Developing?  No; I'd recommend private development for the template and system.  Maintenance?  Yes, it can be supported on a part-time basis.

Quote from: Pylon on October 30, 2008, 01:35:07 PM

Yet another supporting point for why National should be hosting unit websites, operating off a mandatory template system like the Air Force mandates for subordinate unit sites.  Thus, one less expense and one less hurdle for units to have to cross.

But as Maj Carrales has pointed out several times, there's no sense in putting together anything at the national level for this sort of stuff because units are the only echelon that does things and national-level strategery couldn't possibly help the units carry out their missions.   ;)

Cheapshots by the wayside, I have long called for a unified form in cyber space.   My unit has little resources for webpages, thus, we are stuck with freeservers and the like.

We work together in a communitarian spirit to accomplish our missions, goals et al, this means saving up for the essentials (cadet uniforms, getting people to trainings, outfitting our facility).

With new technology, handling a large array of accounts & policing content is not a problem.   Plus, it's time the CAP IT's earn their 'pay' and that badge they wear and learn how to properly moderate a large site & system.    There are a lot of new community builder systems far better than joomla that would accommodate large complex organizations with minimal work.   Joomla is very limited and not secure.  It is always tedious and time consuming during the install and setup but once that is done, it is very easy to maintain.  Some are free and many cost money but if a National IT acts in a nice, professional manner and connects with the right people, we may be able to get it for free or at a substantial discount too.   And hosting is free through Google's new hosting service (ideal for squadrons) and many large hosting companies would consider donating dedicated server's to CAP as well.   It only takes the effort and willing to ask.  Just about anything a CAP member needs or wants can be donated or bought below cost if you do your research and handle it according to CAP regs.   And Eclipse, since your a hardcore ground team guy, there is a lot of cool technology available today utilizing new types of codes that ease the mission considerably  (similar to what you see in Hollywood with voice recognition & touch screen capability).   

It would be ideal to pool all the top coders, developers, database, security, graphics members in CAP (not IT badge holders exclusively)  and build, develop a system specifically geared towards CAP or develop an existing system that works for CAP needs but this team would require coordination, organization, control & direction by National.  It is time that CAP organizes a nationwide IT program with some of the best minds and ideas, from Cadets to Seniors, Male & Female.    And an annual National IT Academy would most likely evolve from the IT program later too.

Why only do websites for the units, let's have have useful add-on's such as an online Medals/Rank/Advancement Member Tracker, Recognition/Promotion Notices, Planners, Field Chat, Maps, Archer Feeds, SAR software, Widgets, etc that would be securely connected to the CAP network.   Most anything is possible.    SAR add-on's would be useful out in the field whether your on GT, in the Air and mission support plus you'd be able to read the latest news on the site if you so desired.  A well thought out & researched plan is needed for this project but at the National level with units feedback and involvement before any new system is built.  And you may wonder, how is CAP going to pay for it all, well, you'd be surprised, it's all in who you know and most of this project can be done for free by outside developers or in-house CAP developers or outsourced overseas.  It would be ideal to be equal, better or compatible with technology in regard to FEMA too.   

If most in CAP are content with the current website system and don't see any benefits, no need to elaborate on any of this any more...besides, the BSA has an interest

Quote from: FlexCoder on October 30, 2008, 09:16:03 PMMost anything is possible.

Yes, it is, however much less is actually feasible, and even less still will catch anyone's attention long enough to be of value.

Rather than continue to discuss what might be done - build it, apparently you believe they will come.

As someone who has been trying to get a handful of unit CC's to update an online calendar for
about 5 years, with little success, I wish you all the luck in the world, you'll need it.

Most anything is possible with the right, openminded attitude.  Closed minded attitudes is why many units in any organization are stagnated and never amount to much.   If the great innovators and inventors went with society's norms & listened to all the naysayers, we would still be in the dark ages.   Who will come, Eclipse, 'little green men'!  You obviously are not a good delegater if you cannot get your unit cadets to update a simple calendar.  Leadership school, such as National Staff College would be a great place for you to learn how to delegate properly.    Luck, why would I need luck when the technology and people are already available!

At this point your replies are indicating that you aren't actually reading other people's responses, and despite your "24 years of CAP experience" you don't understand the problem.

Build it and show us.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 05:52:40 PM
You're talking about server access for hundreds of units, other echelons, special activities and similar.

Thousands of accounts, access rights, trouble shooting bad code, and probably policing content.

This is not something that could be rolled out or supported on a part-time basis.

Coast Guard Auxiliary does it....Any CG Aux unit can request space on the CG Aux server for a web page for their unit.  No mandated template though I have heard rumblings that it might happen.  Works pretty well. 

Quote from: RiverAux on October 30, 2008, 10:13:11 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2008, 05:52:40 PM
You're talking about server access for hundreds of units, other echelons, special activities and similar.

Thousands of accounts, access rights, trouble shooting bad code, and probably policing content.

This is not something that could be rolled out or supported on a part-time basis.

Coast Guard Auxiliary does it....Any CG Aux unit can request space on the CG Aux server for a web page for their unit.  No mandated template though I have heard rumblings that it might happen.  Works pretty well. 

CAP does it now - you can get limited amounts of space on CAP's servers with a .gov domain - there are only a limited number of units doing it today - we're talking about a considerably higher scale.

You guys also need to pick what you want - Flexcoder is decrying template sites, Joomla, and generic code, while at the same time suggesting we could easily do "template sites and generic code".

Putting up a simple contact page for each unit could be done with a script in an hour, building a national "community" is a somewhat different situation.

This site, which is the nearest thing to a community CAP has today, "only" has about 1800 registered users, and many aren't CAP members.  I'm constantly amazed how few people actually know it even exists.

The only problem is YOU, Eclipse...Very ignorant & closed minded.   Bad traits for a leader.   Besides, it takes a coordinated Team effort with National support & control.  Why waste time building it when you said nobody would want it or even care about it in CAP.    Amazing, you bashed people for spending to much time on MP & FB and you have 3,768 posts on CAPTalk.  Your just as guilty... drama queen!

Quote from: FlexCoder on October 30, 2008, 10:36:50 PMYour just as guilty... drama queen!

Nice.

What is generic code, Eclipse?  Never head that terminology before...please elaborate. 

Joomla is a free open source CMS system that has a lot of flaws and security issues.  There are other CMS systems that are better and many aren't free (a donation or discount is possible though).    If you desire a template system, Eclipse, Yahoo Site Builder is up your alley but it consumes a lot of bandwidth.   

"You guys also need to pick what you want - Flexcoder is decrying template sites, Joomla, and generic code, while at the same time suggesting we could easily do "template sites and generic code", stated by Eclipse.    Who are "You guys"?  Your basically telling CAP members to go out & select what they want without letting their Wing  IT know first.  That's like a Ground Team Leader telling his GTM's to go on  private property without the owner's consent.    Loose lips...sink ships!  Loose organizations....lose members!

BTW - you have yet to actually show us a single site you've coded yourself.

It might also be nice if you kept your remarks applicable to the discussion.

You might want to wait until you are through your first week here before you start insulting people personally.

This isn't a Halo server.

Knock off the personal attacks, or the thread dies.

Insults, that is all I have gotten from you.  All of my remarks are applicable to the current posts.  Can't you read and comprehend!   So, you prefer a passive response and everyone agreeing to your warped sense of reality instead.     

And you prefer physical activities rather than online activity, virtual worlds don't count, Eclipse, a video gamer (a "Halo" server).   What a guy!  From the majority of the remarks on this post, it seems like most do not care one way or the other about CAP websites. 

I can hear Mike coming down the hall...

Simply making things up to prove your point isn't going to get you very far here.

Your home page link goes back to a "professional" gaming league, thus the reference to a Halo server,
presumably, since its your homepage, you spend a fair amount of time there or endorse its use.

I didn't initiate a single personal comment.

You accused me of being a poor leader, inexperienced, ignorant, closed minded, and a drama queen.
And in all the bravado about your extensive CAP and online experience, you havent' shown us a single site you've actually created.

I'm done here, hopefully you are too.