Hoping this is a media misprint...

[♠SARKID♠]

This showed up in my google alerts this morning from a newspaper in Cicero, IL.  I'm hoping its just a misunderstanding by the newspaper.

Event: Memorial Day observances
What to do: In place of the traditional Memorial Day parade, there are observances throughout St. Charles. At 5:45 a.m. at the Baker Community Center, 101 S. Second St., services will begin with an honor guard raising the U.S. flag, and the U.S. Civil Air Patrol firing squad will give a 21-gun salute. Next, members of the American Legion, Veterans of Foreign Wars, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts and the Civil Air Patrol will proceed to the St. Charles South Cemetery on Seventh Avenue, where they will repeat the flag-raising ceremony and 21-gun salute and will decorate the graves of those who have died. The ceremonies will be repeated at the St. Charles North Cemetery, and again at Union Cemetery. A short ceremony also will be at 10 a.m. at the St. Charles Freedom Walk, located north of the downtown police station along the east side of the Fox River, north of Route 64.
Why: "We look forward to working with the St. Charles veteran organizations for next year's parade," said Mayor Donald DeWitte, whose office cited construction road closures and graduation ceremonies at both high schools among the reasons St. Charles American Legion Post 342 canceled the parade.
When: Monday morning, May 26
Where: Various locations
More information: American Legion at (630) 584-5166

What are they gonna do?  Yell "BANG!"?

[Duke Dillio]

We have a firing squad and he who shall not be named was not placed in front of them?

[Eclipse]

It has to be, and its on all the local wires as a "thing to do" this weekend.

Looking into it locally, though..   

[SSgt Rudin]

This showed up in my google alerts this morning from a newspaper in Cicero, IL.  I'm hoping its just a misunderstanding by the newspaper.

Event: Memorial Day observances
What to do: In place of the traditional Memorial Day parade, there are observances throughout St. Charles. At 5:45 a.m. at the Baker Community Center, 101 S. Second St., services will begin with an honor guard raising the U.S. flag, and the U.S. Civil Air Patrol firing squad will give a 21-gun salute. Next, members of the American Legion, Veterans of Foreign Wars, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts and the Civil Air Patrol will proceed to the St. Charles South Cemetery on Seventh Avenue, where they will repeat the flag-raising ceremony and 21-gun salute and will decorate the graves of those who have died. The ceremonies will be repeated at the St. Charles North Cemetery, and again at Union Cemetery. A short ceremony also will be at 10 a.m. at the St. Charles Freedom Walk, located north of the downtown police station along the east side of the Fox River, north of Route 64.
Why: "We look forward to working with the St. Charles veteran organizations for next year's parade," said Mayor Donald DeWitte, whose office cited construction road closures and graduation ceremonies at both high schools among the reasons St. Charles American Legion Post 342 canceled the parade.
When: Monday morning, May 26
Where: Various locations
More information: American Legion at (630) 584-5166

What are they gonna do?  Yell "BANG!"?

Cap guns

[Stonewall]

Little D&C lesson here:

Firing Squad:  A squad formed to perform a military execution (generally speaking)

Firing Party:  A squad formed to fire volleys to render honors at a military funeral

I'm sure the dictionary may use them interchangably, but we try not to use "firing squad" when performing honors, especially within earshot of the family.

[Duke Dillio]

^So I ask again, we have a firing squad and noone put HWSRN in front of them?  Geez...

Either way, I didn't think that CAP would have either a firing squad or a firing party.  Unless there is some way to get caps or something in our parade rifles....

[Eclipse]

Any firearms capable of firing are prohibited for use by CAP honor guards.

CAPM 52-16, Page 7
Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
(1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon.  A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.


CAPP 52-8, Page 5-6  (Honor Guard Manual)
1.3. Restrictions. CAP regulations are the standards that all CAP members follow. Some of these regulations impact the Unit Honor Guard. For example, CAP Regulation 52-16 states that devices that can
be used as a weapon are not allowed. Only non-operating (meaning not capable of firing) rifles are allowed.


Quoted from the regs, emphasis mine.

[lordmonar]

It is possible for it to be a grooup of senior members who are acting as part of the firing party.

[Hawk200]

Little D&C lesson here:

Firing Squad:  A squad formed to perform a military execution (generally speaking)

Firing Party:  A squad formed to fire volleys to render honors at a military funeral

I'm sure the dictionary may use them interchangably, but we try not to use "firing squad" when performing honors, especially within earshot of the family.

The various dictionaries do use them interchangeably. Which doesn't coincide in any manner with the drill related pubs from a couple of military branches.

In the various pubs for both the Army and the Air Force, the unit is referred to only as a "firing party". The term "firing squad" is not even mentioned in any of the D&C related pubs that I can find for either branch.

Just goes to show how much a lot of "D&C" is learned from the movies and television. And how much definitions can evolve.

[♠SARKID♠]

Any firearms capable of firing are prohibited for use by CAP honor guards.

CAPM 52-16, Page 7
Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
(1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon.  A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.


CAPP 52-8, Page 5-6  (Honor Guard Manual)
1.3. Restrictions. CAP regulations are the standards that all CAP members follow. Some of these regulations impact the Unit Honor Guard. For example, CAP Regulation 52-16 states that devices that can
be used as a weapon are not allowed. Only non-operating (meaning not capable of firing) rifles are allowed.


Quoted from the regs, emphasis mine.

Define ammunition though.  If its a cap gun then theres no projectile.  I hardly call that ammunition.
As for not capable of firing, its grey.  Capable of firing what?  Projectiles?  Caps?

[Turk]

Nooo, nooo, he's just funnin' ya... "CAP" gun, get it? 

[Eclipse]

Define ammunition though.  If its a cap gun then theres no projectile.  I hardly call that ammunition.
As for not capable of firing, its grey.  Capable of firing what?  Projectiles?  Caps?

That's just it, its not gray. 

The text is clear, if it >fires<, its verboten.

[JohnKachenmeister]

No, the text is NOT clear.

A weapon capable of firing only blank rounds for ceremonies is:

1.  Not capable of firing "Ammunition," and

2.  In my opinion completely legitimate to use for ceremonial purposes in CAP.

The regulation is to prohibit the use of live weapons by CAP members except in very limited and controled training environments.  It is not intended to cut CAP members out of participating in time-honored military ceremonies.

[Stonewall]

Sitting here at Air Force Combat Arms school at Lackland AFB and just had classes identifying the different types of ammunition for firearms and believe it or not, "blanks" are considered ammunition by deffinition.  May not make sense, but that's what they're calling it.

I've seen soldiers get hurt from blanks and several people have died from being stupid, like throwing a cleaning rod down the barrel with a blank and shooting it "for fun".

My personal opinion, CAP members should not partake in anything that requires something that goes boom, regardless if it shoots a projectile or not. 

[♠SARKID♠]

I further my argument by saying that a "cap" is a LOT different than a "blank".  As you've said, blanks can kill.  Caps on the other hand, well, I've set them off in my hand yielding no injury to myself.

[Eclipse]

My personal opinion, CAP members should not partake in anything that requires something that goes boom, regardless if it shoots a projectile or not. 

Agreed, and I believe that is the intention.

Brandon Lee was killed by a "blank"-firing weapon, and anything which is going to go "bang" loud enough not to look silly
is going to involve risk, not the lease of which is the weapon blowing up in the member's face, etc.

[Stonewall]

I further my argument by saying that a "cap" is a LOT different than a "blank".  As you've said, blanks can kill.  Caps on the other hand, well, I've set them off in my hand yielding no injury to myself.

Using a "cap" would simply be embarassing and go along with people saying "look at that little kid, he's dressed up like a soldier and has a cap gun, isn't that cute".

You can't hear a cap from 20 feet away and you'd lose the affect of a firing party to render honors.  I've shot many blanks at military funerals and I think the entire family would look in disgust if they heard "poof" rather than a loud and thunderous "crack".

[SSgt Rudin]

It is possible for it to be a grooup of senior members who are acting as part of the firing party.

Yes! For the most part, what ever you do in your personal time is your business, and that is why it is OK for a group of senior members to do it. As long as you are not in your CAP uniform or acting as a agent of the Civil Air Patrol.

[Eclipse]

You can't hear a cap from 20 feet away and you'd lose the affect of a firing party to render honors.  I've shot many blanks at military funerals and I think the entire family would look in disgust if they heard "poof" rather than a loud and thunderous "crack".

If they don't make even a seasoned vet jump, they aren't worth the time - ditto if the team is not working the action of a bolt and ejecting a casing, which you hear hit the ground.

[♠SARKID♠]

I further my argument by saying that a "cap" is a LOT different than a "blank".  As you've said, blanks can kill.  Caps on the other hand, well, I've set them off in my hand yielding no injury to myself.

Using a "cap" would simply be embarassing and go along with people saying "look at that little kid, he's dressed up like a soldier and has a cap gun, isn't that cute".

You can't hear a cap from 20 feet away and you'd lose the affect of a firing party to render honors.  I've shot many blanks at military funerals and I think the entire family would look in disgust if they heard "poof" rather than a loud and thunderous "crack".

Point taken, hadn't thought of that.

[lordmonar]

Redacted

[JohnKachenmeister]

I am apalled at the lengths people will go to wussify this organization.

Blanks can be fired safely.  If the weapon is incapable of firing projectiles, I don't see how even the dumbest cadet could put a cleaning rod down the barrel.

If the cadets are sharp enough to pull off a military funeral, they should be allowed to be on the firing party.

[Eclipse]

What the program >should< be doesn't change what it >is<.

It again comes down to frequency/consistency of training and fudge factor - CAP says "no", and we still have units doing it.  If they said yes, before you know it we're doing it with rifles and blanks, and from there some goof shoots somebody because they forget to change the ammo from the deer hunting trip the night before.

[Stonewall]

I am apalled at the lengths people will go to wussify this organization.

I am the last person you need to be associating "wussifying" CAP with.  

The fact is, the Air Force nor CAP would ever allow cadets to perform a firing party using blank ammunition.  Whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, and as ridiculous as it may sound, blank ammunition requires special handling and storage in the military.  Not to mention cost of ammunition and weapons capable of firing blanks.  A weapon that ONLY fires blanks is an option, thus not allowing for anything to come out the end of the barrel.  I have no idea what the regulations are for storage and maintenance, but I'm sure CAP and the AF would have requirements for such things and unlike color guard rifles that weigh a pound or two, we couldn't just throw such weapons in our squadron locker.

Could it be done?  Absolutely, but not with a bigger hassle than it is to get cadets out on a military firing range with military firearms instructors.  Cost, safety, accountability, training, all things that require a lot of consideration.

As a cadet, learning to do military funerals would have been one of the last things I would have wanted to do.  And as an army and air force veteran, I'd be disappointed to learn that a CAP honor guard of cadets or seniors were performing the ceremonies at my funeral.  I know how much training (and time) it takes to perform these duties with precision and not making a fool of yourself, and I just don't think CAP could handle that type of responsibility.  A VFW or American Legion honor guard would be better suited for rendering such honors.

As always your mileage and opinions will vary.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I am apalled at the lengths people will go to wussify this organization.

I am the last person you need to be associating "wussifying" CAP with.  

The fact is, the Air Force nor CAP would ever allow cadets to perform a firing party using blank ammunition.  Whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, and as ridiculous as it may sound, blank ammunition requires special handling and storage in the military.  Not to mention cost of ammunition and weapons capable of firing blanks.  A weapon that ONLY fires blanks is an option, thus not allowing for anything to come out the end of the barrel.  I have no idea what the regulations are for storage and maintenance, but I'm sure CAP and the AF would have requirements for such things and unlike color guard rifles that weigh a pound or two, we couldn't just throw such weapons in our squadron locker.

Could it be done?  Absolutely, but not with a bigger hassle than it is to get cadets out on a military firing range with military firearms instructors.  Cost, safety, accountability, training, all things that require a lot of consideration.

As a cadet, learning to do military funerals would have been one of the last things I would have wanted to do.  And as an army and air force veteran, I'd be disappointed to learn that a CAP honor guard of cadets or seniors were performing the ceremonies at my funeral.  I know how much training (and time) it takes to perform these duties with precision and not making a fool of yourself, and I just don't think CAP could handle that type of responsibility.  A VFW or American Legion honor guard would be better suited for rendering such honors.

As always your mileage and opinions will vary.

You are addressing two different things.

1.  Regulations on storage of weapons and ammunition.  A rifle adapted to fire ONLY blank ammunition is a ceremonial/salute rifle, and I think it can be stored in a metal locker.

2.  The capability of cadets to perform military funerals.  These DO require special training, and for reasons of image and age, I would require (If it were my program to run) that only cadet officers participate.  I think they CAN be trained to the very high standard of military funerals, and if they are, I think a squad of cadets in Air Force blues would look way sharper than a squad of old men in white shirts that the Legion or VFW would provide.

But at least you do not presume the level of incompetence that the previous writer expressed, indicating that the ceremonial rifles (That I have already said must be adapted to fire only blanks, but he wasn't paying attention) could double as deer-hunting rifles.

[flyerthom]

My personal opinion, CAP members should not partake in anything that requires something that goes boom, regardless if it shoots a projectile or not. 

No more beans and franks at the squadron picnic 

A compromise solution is an MOU with the local vets organization.

[SAR-EMT1]

Still and all, now that the day has come and gone... did the CAP folks in this ceremony have in fact a firing party?