My 6 Year Feik Ribbon Dilemma

Started by Майор Хаткевич, October 23, 2009, 01:51:19 PM

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Майор Хаткевич

As a preface, I'm trying to get back into CAP in a limited capacity in order to achieve some more as a cadet.

I'm in the process of reordering some uniform supplies and figured my ribbons most likely need replacement.

The dilemma is this:

I became a member in May of 2003. This was right after the switch to the system which now includes the Feik Achievement and the Wright Brothers Award.

Unfortunately the unit I belonged to when I joined had a few major issues, including the only knowledgeable cadets leaving for college at the end of that summer, a lackluster senior organization with little knowledge or interest in the cadet program, and general mayhem.

I believe I became a C/Amn in June, C/A1C in August, C/SrA in October, and C/SSgt in December. I was pretty high speed and due to the circumstances in my unit, three others and I decided to learn as much as we could on our own. Then again, even if we weren't, we'd probably still endup getting pencil whipped up the ranks.

Come December-January, and we had a new Captain transfer into the unit who used to be a cadet LtCol, and had knowledge of the CAP program. He halted our promotions, a good idea in retrospect, until he was able to see where the unit stood.

The next time I was promoted was end of April or early May of 2004, right after my basic encampment. The issue here was that two of us got bumped two grades to C/MSgt because of the offset that was created when the WBA was created. I tried appealing to the Captain, telling him that since I had joined after the policy came to be, I shouldn't be getting the bump. He insisted that because of the way the program changed, it had to be done. Looking back it may have had to do with what the achievement structure did, since I had Achievement 5 completed for C/TSgt, but the new system had it for C/MSgt. Still, even with the time served it came down to 4 months as a C/SSgt and a bump to C/MSgt right after, and I didn't like it.

When I transferred to my new unit in August of 2005, I was a C/CMSgt, and had almost everything completed for my Mitchell. I received my Mitchell Award at Encampment Graduation - I was the First Sergeant.

When I was issued my Mitchell number, I was also retroactively given a Wright Brothers number as well.

So the issue comes down to this: I took the Wright Brothers Achievement because my unit never ordered/received the Feik/WBA tests until mid 2004. I wore the Wright Brothers ribbon, and still do, but I never put on a Feik because I never took the test.

Three arguments that can come from this include:

- Wear of the Feik based on corresponding achievement, and non wear of Wright Brothers due to never taking the Award Test.

- Wear of the Wright Brothers, as it was the test I took, even though it was technically the Feik Achievement at the time.

- Wear both, as I was retroactively issued the number for the WBA.

From a personal standpoint, those of us who were stuck in this situation liked not having the Feik simply because it meant to us that we were the pre-change cadets, even if we weren't. It became awkward when I met Mrs. Feik at HGA in 05, but no big deal, still have the picture, just declined getting the signed certificate for the achievement by her.

Thoughts on my options?

Eclipse

#1
- Wear of the Wright Brothers, as it was the test I took, even though it was technically the Feik Achievement at the time.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on October 23, 2009, 02:02:09 PM
The answer is in your question...

But I also mention that "technically" it was the Feik Achievement test.

dwb

Rule of thumb: If you did not take the comprehensive Wright Bros exam, then you progressed under the "old" system and thus did not complete the Feik achievement.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: dwb on October 23, 2009, 02:10:13 PM
Rule of thumb: If you did not take the comprehensive Wright Bros exam, then you progressed under the "old" system and thus did not complete the Feik achievement.

That's the assumption I've been going off for the last four years or so. As for it being comprehensive...having helped a number of cadets with their WBA prep, and debrief, it doesn't seem any harder than any given achievement before it.

dwb

It doesn't seem harder to you, but you're a lot older now than the cadets taking the exam.  ;)

You joined at just the right time for this confusion to arise.  Still, following the rule of thumb above makes it easy: you earned a Wright Bros ribbon, but did not earn a Feik ribbon.

BTW, this same issue came up in the late 90s when they introduced the Armstrong achievement.  There were some cadet officers that had an Armstrong ribbon, and some that didn't, depending on when they joined.

Flying Pig

You are talking about getting back into CAP as a cadet?  Based on your time line, you must be at least 18 by now right?   Id say since you have the WBR award, then thats the one you wear.

So your a C/2Lt now?

Майор Хаткевич

I'm turning 20 in February, and I have my Earhart Numbers clocked in at 31 MAR 07.

I was simply wondering what the prevailing ideas are based on the Charlie Foxtrot of my early CAP career.

Flying Pig

Ahhhh.. Id say if you took the WB, then go with that.  Being your already a C/Capt. I cant imagine anyone giving you any hassle or even noticing for that matter.  Welcome back.

Майор Хаткевич

Yea, I 'deactivated' August 2008 due to moving to the city for school. In reality I deactivated in August 2007 when I went to Europe before Basic, and then came back deciding to go to college in England. That would need money, so I needed to work. Working took me away from CAP and I was hit and miss on meetings. Thus no progression since the Earhart, at all.

Right now, I figure is as good a time as any to get to C/Maj, a grade that gets me a diamond, gets no respect in the senior program (no C/Maj ribbon that is), and something that was my shortstop goal when I realized Spaatz might not be something I can make. But we'll see. I'm doing this for me, because I figure if I want to get in shape, I need to have something to strive for.

As a side note, had I not renewed this month, two more and I would renew automatically as a SMWOG, because it would be past the 6 month grace period. Scary now that I think about it.

shorning

From what you've described about your life choices, perhaps becoming a senior is in your best interest.  It's not a death sentence afterall....

Майор Хаткевич

No, and I do plan to stick with CAP, at least after college as a Senior. But I'd still like to get as far as I can before I clock out as a cadet.

Plus, having a real break of a year or two after that will let me separate myself from the cadet mentality, and I may actually re-engage in the cadet program as a senior member.

Eclipse

Based on age and current grade, Spaatz isn't off the table yet, is it?

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

I did the math, and If I get to my goal weight by December (on schedule right now)
Do the "hitting that 6:14 mile" program from CS for 3 months, I can get started in February, so that gives me a year.

Based on the Awesome Cadet Super Chart that was developed:

Achievement 12: Feb 10
Achievement 13: Apr 10
Achievement 14: May 10 (C/Maj)
Achievement 15: Jul 10
Achievement 16: Sep 10
Eaker: Nov 10 (C/LtCol)
Spaatz: Nov 10 - 15 February 11 (I turn 21)

Of course this is pushing it in real close to minimum times, but I'd only get one shot at the Spaatz anyway given that I get to the Eaker. 

IF I receive the Eaker by November, then the formal procedure to get the ball rolling on the Spaatz takes about a month from what I read in CAPR 52-16. At that point I'd be able to test in December/January, and if I pass great,  but if I fail any part of the test, then that it, as NHQ takes some 30 days to report back on the first try, and the cadet needs to wait another 60 days to retest.

Still, if I get there or not, I'll probably kick myself down the road if I don't try.

swamprat86

I am firm believer that even if you only get to take it once, do it.  Pass or fail, you made the attempt.  So I would keep on track with trying to aim for the Spaatz.  Making the attempt under difficult conditions is sometimes as admirable as passing the test.

But I am also slightly biased, I was a one attempt Spaatz test taker in my day.  :)

Майор Хаткевич

#15
That's what I'm thinking. Weight gain was really what stalled me out at one point, and college didn't help. But, down some 22 pounds in the last month from my peak, so all should be good in a month or so.

At that point it's getting back in shape, dumping bad habits, and putting my ass in gear.

Besides, I took and passed on the first try the 100 Q Mitchell in 8 minutes and 42 seconds and the 50/50Q Earhart in 15 minutes, it's not the material that slows me down, it's the running.

IceNine

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 23, 2009, 05:23:27 PM
I did the math, and If I get to my goal weight by December (on schedule right now)
Do the "hitting that 6:14 mile" program from CS for 3 months, I can get started in February, so that gives me a year.

Based on the Awesome Cadet Super Chart that was developed:

Achievement 12: Feb 10
Achievement 13: Apr 10
Achievement 14: May 10 (C/Maj)
Achievement 15: Jul 10
Achievement 16: Sep 10
Eaker: Nov 10 (C/LtCol)
Spaatz: Nov 10 - 15 February 11 (I turn 21)

Of course this is pushing it in real close to minimum times, but I'd only get one shot at the Spaatz anyway given that I get to the Eaker. 

IF I receive the Eaker by November, then the formal procedure to get the ball rolling on the Spaatz takes about a month from what I read in CAPR 52-16. At that point I'd be able to test in December/January, and if I pass great,  but if I fail any part of the test, then that it, as NHQ takes some 30 days to report back on the first try, and the cadet needs to wait another 60 days to retest.

Still, if I get there or not, I'll probably kick myself down the road if I don't try.

Just figured out who you actually are.  We have NHGA in common (I went the year before you).

Anyway of course you should wear the wright brothers and forget the Feik.  At the end of the day it doesn't change anything, and it avoids uncomfortable conversations.

You and I both know the guy(s) who made this decision know the CP inside and out.  I have complete faith in their assessment and you should to.

Anyway, good luck with all of this I hope it comes out ok on the other side.

BTW- If you don't at least try for spaatz then the road may just fork you!
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

Майор Хаткевич

Heh, just because I'm Russian I need the road fork you jokes?

:D

Eclipse

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 23, 2009, 05:23:27 PM
IF I receive the Eaker by November, then the formal procedure to get the ball rolling on the Spaatz takes about a month from what I read in CAPR 52-16.

Assuming you get to that point, it doesn't have to take a month.  The SD is in you area, and is flexible for these kinds of things.  My advice is to start getting things going today and not to focus on a goal weight, just start challenging the PT, etc. 

Try and get things together so that you have a second try at Spaatz.

There's no shame in doing your best and missing the mark.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Diet I'm on will go bad if I overexert, because then the body will retain fat instead of burning it.

I'm done with the diet just after thanksgiving. I KNOW my mile sucks, always had.

I plan on getting the testing and SDA out of the way, so the lynch pin will be the PT. I'm still flexible and am just off the mark on the situps with the current extra pounds. The push ups are an issue, but again, I can work on it and it is 2 out of three.

As for the runs, I may attempt to do the shuttle for the first few achievements to keep up with the schedule, and build up (down) my mile (time), to where I can actually have a shot at that 6:23 mile.

Then again, the Spaatz is the same as the rest of the program 2 out of 3 plus run, so if I know the mile will be an issue, I can always get the shuttle done, and take a victory mile after that.

But this is at least a year away, and the real issue with the application for the test is wing level. Not sure how it is now, but if I have to send stuff up for approval through unit-group-wing, I'm worried on the response time at wing and not so much as SD.

The upside? Since at 19 I'm over a hump of sorts, I need to do less situps than a 17 year old! lol.

Eclipse

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 23, 2009, 06:06:13 PMDiet I'm on will go bad if I overexert, because then the body will retain fat instead of burning it.
But this is at least a year away, and the real issue with the application for the test is wing level. Not sure how it is now, but if I have to send stuff up for approval through unit-group-wing, I'm worried on the response time at wing and not so much as SD.

I promise you that if you get to that point, and I still have anything to say about it, test-delay will not be an issue.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

In that case I'd have to be ready to go in November, which gives me December, January, 1/2 February for a second hit.

National takes 30 days I believe to tally the results, but worst comes to worst, I think it's 60 days from the attempt, so if it's on December 5th, then by Feb 5th I can try again.

Now...just to get there.

kd8gua

On the topic of Feik / Wright Award dilemmas, I had a fun situation myself:

I became a cadet in 2002. I don't even remember when anymore, but it took me a while at first to start promoting and testing and all that good stuff. At any rate, I had a horrible time passing the Wright Brothers (Achievement 3) test. There were some questions I just didn't get. I started taking this test in January of 2003, and testing was offered once a month. I finally passed the written portion of the Wright Bros Achievement in March of 03, one month before the change over to the Feik and the gifted promotions. However, the thorn in my side from day one, PT, hurt me bad. I just wasn't able to pass the PT that month and had to wait another month to test for PT. So I finally promoted to C/SrA in April of 2003.

So I was one of the very few people who took both the Wright Brothers Achievement test, and the Wright Brothers Award test. Oddly enough it was a lot of the same material, so I passed the Wright Award test first try and it took me like 20 minutes to complete, if that. Even though I technically earned the Wright Brothers ribbon for Achievement 3, because it was already April, I was given one of the brand new, hot off the ribbon machine, Feik ribbons.

And here I was hoping to earn the Wright ribbon for completing the Wright Bros achievement (number 3) and then getting a bronze clasp for earning it again as the award :)
Capt Brad Thomas
Communications Officer
Columbus Composite Squadron

Assistant Cadet Programs Activities Officer
Ohio Wing HQ

Pingree1492

#23
Quote from: kd8gua on October 23, 2009, 07:07:01 PM
And here I was hoping to earn the Wright ribbon for completing the Wright Bros achievement (number 3) and then getting a bronze clasp for earning it again as the award :)

Just a note- your Wright Brothers Award shouldn't be unnumbered.  If your unit properly processed the award, then you would have a number.  Hopefully National will be able to pull that up for you when you rejoin.  Otherwise, you'll have to go digging for old certificates, and Form 52's.

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 23, 2009, 05:23:27 PM
I did the math, and If I get to my goal weight by December (on schedule right now)
Do the "hitting that 6:14 mile" program from CS for 3 months, I can get started in February, so that gives me a year.

Based on the Awesome Cadet Super Chart that was developed:

Achievement 12: Feb 10
Achievement 13: Apr 10
Achievement 14: May 10 (C/Maj)
Achievement 15: Jul 10
Achievement 16: Sep 10
Eaker: Nov 10 (C/LtCol)
Spaatz: Nov 10 - 15 February 11 (I turn 21)

Still, if I get there or not, I'll probably kick myself down the road if I don't try.

I never wore either the Feik or Armstrong ribbons as a cadet, as they were either added after I had already completed the achievement (Feik), or I decided to get my Mitchell under the old system (Armstrong).  If anyone hassles you for not wearing the Feik, just explain and move on.

Yes, if you can I would definitely recommend at least taking a shot at the Spaatz Award.  Your timeframe is REALLY tight, but definitly doable.  I got my Eaker on Nov 27, and took my Spaatz Exam on Feb 18.  A lot of that time between awards was a 2-month wait in processing my Eaker, so I couldn't actually schedule the Spaatz Exam until late February.  If you are able to do everything in minimum time, and have your ducks in a row getting your exam scheduled and taken as soon as possible after getting your Eaker, you could conceivably have two shots at the test.

That being said, while you are working on your award, make sure that you are also contributing to your unit's cadet program in some way.  And you certainly don't have to be the Cadet Commander to make a difference.

NOTE:  edit was because I hit the post button before I started writing, stupid mouse pad  >:D
On CAP Hiatus- the U.S. Army is kindly letting me play with some of their really cool toys (helicopters) in far off, distant lands  :)

Майор Хаткевич

kd8gua,

When you rejoin, on E-Services you SHOULD have a documented WBA#

SarDragon

Missing the ribbon is no big deal. It's the result of a program change, and the situation is similar to other times when things were added or removed. At one time, there were cadet officers out there w/o Armstrong ribbons, and it was never an issue.

WIWAC, I joined just before the current program structure was implemented, and completed Achievement 1 under the olde program. Consequently, I ended up wearing a Mitchell ribbon without a Curry ribbon lower in the rack. It looked a little odd, but nobody said anything about it. In fact, a couple of my older buds were cadet officers, w/o Mitchell ribbons. Again, no big deal.

If asked, just tell them there was a program change, and you are not eligible to wear the Feik ribbon.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Майор Хаткевич

#26
Quote from: Pingree1492 on October 23, 2009, 09:02:07 PM
Yes, if you can I would definitely recommend at least taking a shot at the Spaatz Award.  Your time-frame is REALLY tight, but definitely doable.  I got my Eaker on Nov 27, and took my Spaatz Exam on Feb 18.  A lot of that time between awards was a 2-month wait in processing my Eaker, so I couldn't actually schedule the Spaatz Exam until late February.  If you are able to do everything in minimum time, and have your ducks in a row getting your exam scheduled and taken as soon as possible after getting your Eaker, you could conceivably have two shots at the test.

That being said, while you are working on your award, make sure that you are also contributing to your unit's cadet program in some way.  And you certainly don't have to be the Cadet Commander to make a difference.

I'm told that before my time, awards took a while to process. I believe with my Mitchell and Earhart it was a matter of days over a weekend. Sent on Thursday/Friday, posted Monday. If the Eaker is just as well done, and I would hope it is whenever I get to that stage, I would also have my Spaatz stuff ready to go. Say it posts on a Monday, then that same day the # gets plugged into the Memo, and gets E-mailed/Faxed to the appropriate places.

Of course this is a team effort, one requiring the approval of the Senior leadership as well as their support. I've already discussed this with the Deputy Commander of Cadets, and will also try to go to at least one meeting a month/activity. I'm also in contact with the cadets who were serving under me when I was the cadet commander, so I've been trying to guide them as much as I could.

As for the test itself, I really hope it doesn't take two tries, as that would be a blow in of itself.

Regarding the Feik ribbon questions, I haven't had any since about '05-'06 but it just came up in my mind when I ran a ribbon checker and saw 16 pop up (I clicked down the line for the achievement ribbons), but remember having only 15 ribbons (and [darn] proud of being a low ribbon cadet!). When ordering I was considering getting it but that would mean a different ribbon rack, and that would not work well for me.

P.S. Don't you get the results from the AE/CP tests right away when you are done? Multiple choice online seems relatively easy to grade automatically. The only issue with grading would be the essay, but here I believe having taken college courses really helps. I've seen great improvement in my writing after taking some specific business writing classes.

P.P.S. Anyone know why most C/LtCol wait months or even years to take the Spaatz? You'd think at that point you are at the top of your game, and might as well take a shot for the finish line.

Ozzy

Well, I believe its because of a few things. The first is that you only have three chances to pass and you don't want to waste a chance by not being prepared. Others may just want a break from testing or trying to promote. And then you have a few that were pencil whipped to Lt. Colonel and think that if and when they take the Spaatz, they might be exposed.

I'm actually trying to 'power through' to get a few chances at taking the Spaatz exam. I just turned 20 in September and I still have a bit to do before I can get the Eaker and then apply and wait to take the Spaatz. I joined very late in the game which has been both a blessing and a curse.
A blessing in the fact that everything up to Captain was in my opinion, very easy. That was due to three years of AFJROTC and that I was a senior in HS. But it was also a curse because I had to plan a bit on how far I wanted to go, and whether or not I wanted to get to the Spaatz.

Anyways, the way I have it, I need to complete the CC achievement by the first week of November. Then finish the staff duty, essay, speech, ECI-13 (w/e its called), mentoring, PT, by January. THEN try to take the Spaatz in February, if fail wait until April, if failed again in September days before my 21st.

^^ Talk about Crunch time. I've been doing that since I joined. IF I should pass on my first try, I'd would have made C/Col. in about 39 Months.
Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG Encampment 18, 19
FLWG Winter Encampment 19

Майор Хаткевич

ECI-13 really is the only way to go w/o COS or RCLS- or w/e THAT is called.

I ordered my stuff two years back, but never go to taking it. I'm sure most of it I could do on the fly simply by being a cadet.

I just redid my math, and my list is off. I had one promotion from feb to apr to may...doh!

So I need to promote in January in order to pull off a successful 2 tries at Spaatz, if any.

Ozzy

yep. Well I ordered the test about 3 weeks ago so I still have to wait a bit for it to get here. Out of all the things I'm worried about, its that. Not so much of taking the test but of ordering it, waiting for it, then sending it back and such.

Actually a good question for you (And me if I fail the Spaatz the first time) is if and how the Spaatz is going to change because of the proposed phase one and two leadership text change in April 2010. I already have the first leadership 'module' for phase one and glanced through it a few times to see how different it is and I'd be a bit concerned if I was to take a test on something that is even slightly different to what I was reading for the past few years.
Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG Encampment 18, 19
FLWG Winter Encampment 19

Майор Хаткевич

I don't think it will be any different.

They will make 100 questions for all tests from what I heard. The tests will be 25, and alternate if failed, etc.

The Spaatz already should have a bank of questions, and I don't think it will change any if at all since the other achievements will not change in content, only additional questions.

Pingree1492

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 24, 2009, 12:09:59 AM
ECI-13 really is the only way to go w/o COS or RCLS- or w/e THAT is called.

I ordered my stuff two years back, but never go to taking it. I'm sure most of it I could do on the fly simply by being a cadet.

Don't count on it!  You'll need to do some studying to pass it. 

Quote from: Ozzy on October 24, 2009, 12:30:21 AM
Actually a good question for you (And me if I fail the Spaatz the first time) is if and how the Spaatz is going to change because of the proposed phase one and two leadership text change in April 2010. I already have the first leadership 'module' for phase one and glanced through it a few times to see how different it is and I'd be a bit concerned if I was to take a test on something that is even slightly different to what I was reading for the past few years.

BTDT.  They changed from the old, horrible aerospace book to the new module system right before I got my Mitchell (or sometime in that time-frame at least).  Basically every test I took after I took my Mitchell Exam was based on the new aerospace text.  So I assumed (and was actually told by my squadron) that the Spaatz Exam was going to be based on the new material as well, and I didn't read the applicable portions of R52-16 close enough while I was studying.  I didn't realize it was based on the old material (pre-2000) until the day before the exam.  So I was studying that while I was riding down to my exam.  Not the best way to go into a test stress free and rested, but it worked out in the end.  Just a word of advice- don't take a college midterm the morning of your exam  ;)

I took the exam in 2003, so the moral of the story is that you may not have to worry about the Spaatz changing significantly based on new material until a few years after the new stuff gets implemented.  And I'm sure that the new cadet programs team that we have in place at National will give plenty of warning and lead-in for when it does change.
On CAP Hiatus- the U.S. Army is kindly letting me play with some of their really cool toys (helicopters) in far off, distant lands  :)

Seabee219

One BIG rule of thumb every cadet should do..Keep copies of test, and acheviement you do. The rule is, if it is not on paper it did not happen. I had that problem with my cadets and as DCC, I redid every cadets record and put them back on track, gave all the award that were needed and so forth.   ::)
CAP Capt, Retired US Navy Seabee.
  MRO, MS, MO, UDF, GT3, MSA, CUL
1. Lead by example, and take care of your people

IceNine

I hope you mean proof that they were passed and not the tests or answers themselves.

If you're going to let cadets keep their answers sheets you might as well make cadet testing open book and online.   ::)

"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

Ozzy

Quote from: IceNine on October 24, 2009, 03:56:49 AM
I hope you mean proof that they were passed and not the tests or answers themselves.

If you're going to let cadets keep their answers sheets you might as well make cadet testing open book and online.   ::)

haha you do know this coming January.....

-----
Anyways now that I think about it.... if I'm taking it in Feb..... that might just be when I'm doing college mid-terms......

----
And other then the certificates saying 'cadet so-and-so has completed blah blah blah', it's all on eServices....... plus the award numbers should suffice?
Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG Encampment 18, 19
FLWG Winter Encampment 19

Hawk200

Quote from: IceNine on October 24, 2009, 03:56:49 AMIf you're going to let cadets keep their answers sheets you might as well make cadet testing open book and online.   ::)

If a cadet asks, I've given the top portion, the part that shows ID, and their (test) grade. It doesn't have the answers shown.