BDU Sock Color

[davidsinn]

M39-1

5 Socks Plain black or white socks may be worn with boots.

Just clarifying that that's saying my cadets can not wear OD green BDU socks? I've got some cadets that are on limited means and have BDU socks that were given to them. I'd like to let them wear them but as far as I can tell this passage is telling me no. Thoughts, comments?

[Hawk200]

The 39-1 reference says it all. We don't vote on compliance with a pub.

White socks are pretty inexpensive, too. I'm kinda surprised that you have cadets that don't have any.

[EMT-83]

A cadet has high-quality socks that may prevent a foot injury, but they're green.

Sounds like the slippery slope that will lead to the demise of the Civil Air Patrol. Come to think of it, my cadet has several pairs of these socks. I even remember paying for them.

[davidsinn]

The 39-1 reference says it all. We don't vote on compliance with a pub.

White socks are pretty inexpensive, too. I'm kinda surprised that you have cadets that don't have any.

They don't have any long enough to not cause blisters at the top of the boot. I was just trying to make life a bit easier on them. Looks they they'll have to get some.

A cadet has high-quality socks that may prevent a foot injury, but they're green.

Sounds like the slippery slope that will lead to the demise of the Civil Air Patrol. Come to think of it, my cadet has several pairs of these socks. I even remember paying for them.

The problem is I'm trying to get a culture of compliance built. I personally wear white socks that meet the letter of the law but not the spirit because they're ankle socks 

[EMT-83]

I get the culture of compliance thing. I'm the guy pulling members aside to discuss uniform issues.

Green socks with low quarter shoes – we're gonna have a chat. I do, however, draw the line at socks that no one will ever see.

[Hawk200]

Why not dye them, bleach them, or bleach them then dye them? You could do it pretty cheap if they're the ones I'm thinking of.

[Gunner C]

If you teach them to stuff their boots, then the point would be moot. 

[heliodoc]

Maybe in the REAL military when we are ISSUED these items, then it becomes a worry

IN CAP and wearing boots?

Now you guys are REEEAAAAALLLY reaching for that 39-1 stuff

Do the socks fit the bill for outdoor use?   A THAT should be your overarching questions AND what the the person has or can afford

Culture of compliance?  WOW!  Does CAP not have a culture of common sense or practicality.  The AFEES and MCSS store are selling BLACK, GREEN and WHITE ,,,, Maybe in the future CAP will adopt what the military sells and issues and forever realign that hideous 39-1 once-n-for all

Now we got CAP 39-1 sock police!! SHEESESSH

[DC]

Sock color. Seriously. Sock color.

Who gives a [rodent's posterior] what color their socks are with BDUs, if they are showing up to meetings and actively participating in the cadet program?

Really, regulations are important, but you have to exercise some degree of common sense from time to time.

[Airrace]

I personaly wear white socks but black is good as well.

[wuzafuzz]

If the fellow fighting the Taliban in "Hello Kitty" boxers can get a pass, I'd give a cadet a pass on socks no one will ever see outside of extreme circumstances.

I'm usually a "rules" guy, but this falls into the don't worry about it category.

[davidsinn]

Normally I'd agree with the guys saying "who gives a piece of levitating simian excrement"  The problem is my C/CC is the one that is cracking down on it and I can't really tell her to ignore a rule can I? She told them last night that our unit has a rule that we only wear black socks. We don't have that rule. I told her any thing like that needs to go through me and be signed by the CC (in writing) before it is a rule. I was under the impression that green socks were actually authorized until I looked that up last night.

My problem is I need to reel in a C/CC that gets just a touch too FMJ at times, make sure everyone respects the rules, Use my common sense and make parents happy.

Command is a lonely place isn't it? 

[jimmydeanno]

Well, CAPM 39-1 does say White OR Black.  What about those people who have the White AND Black boot socks...

[NC Hokie]

Here's my solution...

If I see it, it better be in regs; if I don't see it, it's between you and God.  I simply do not have the time to fit a sock check into an already packed schedule.

[Eclipse]

Here's my solution...

If I see it, it better be in regs; if I don't see it, it's between you and God.  I simply do not have the time to fit a sock check into an already packed schedule.

And I would agree that's a reasonable position for Senior Members.

David is referring to Cadets who are regularly inspected on their uniforms as part of their progression, and at some activities packing the proper gear, how its stored, etc., is part of that inspection.

Also, while to some of you the ankle sock comment was funny, that's because you understand.  We see that on a regular basis with new cadets, and we see a lot of dress socks and other non-boot-sock options.

Those of you who have spent time marching know how critical proper footwear is, including the fit.

I'd say use the greens for the inside pair when two are needed, but make sure everyone understands the expectation, and they all should have at least one pair that will pass muster.

Like outerwear and a few other places we tend to turn a blind eye when it comes to cadets, making an allowance for safety doesn't relieve the cadet of knowing the regs or fixing things when they have the opportunity.

[Hawk200]

The problem is my C/CC is the one that is cracking down on it and I can't really tell her to ignore a rule can I?

Not really. Sets a bad precedent to tell her that.

She told them last night that our unit has a rule that we only wear black socks. We don't have that rule. I told her any thing like that needs to go through me and be signed by the CC (in writing) before it is a rule.

In such a case, there needs to be a little conversation with that cadet. Find out if it's a misimpression on her part, or if she made the statement to assure compliance.

If it's the latter, there's a little integrity issue. If she's under the impression that it actually was a unit rule, explain that it isn't, it's actually a 39-1 directive.

In cases of being declaritive, we need to absolutely sure that what we're saying is the truth. In the case of uniforms, we can be absolutely truthful. The uniform manual, supplements, and ICLs are readily available.

It may be a PITA to keep on top of everything, but it can be done. If a unit has Internet, things can be pulled up when the question arises. As for the ones who don't, things can be referenced before we attend the meeting, or the night before if the time isn't available on the day of.

My problem is I need to reel in a C/CC that gets just a touch too FMJ at times, make sure everyone respects the rules, Use my common sense and make parents happy.

The FMJ behavior can be an issue at times with a lot of cadets. Have talks with the cadet when the behavior approaches the border line. That's part of mentoring. Gets easier with practice, because you will almost always see it again.

Command is a lonely place isn't it? 

Yup, it sure can be.

[TankerT]

If you have time to do sock inspections, I envy you.  I wish I had all the big problems solved.

[davidsinn]

If you have time to do sock inspections, I envy you.  I wish I had all the big problems solved.

We don't have the time but it's part of a larger crack down on not bad, but not quite up to snuff uniforms. So for the moment we are making the time and then it'll just be reinforcement in the future.

Hawk,
I've talked to the cadet and she says the CC ok'd it. So I need to go talk to him and get us all on the same page. If he really does wish it to be a unit rule we need to get it in writing.

[Maj Daniel Sauerwein]

I wonder if the reason for the sock colors noted in 39-1 has to do with the military moving to black socks for wear with boots. Consider that AFI 36-2903 authorizes black socks with the BDU, with the option to wear white socks.

5 Socks (Black) Plain without design. Plain white socks may be worn with combat boots.
Wear black socks over the white socks to preclude white socks from
showing.

My father, who is a retired 1SG from the Army had to buy black socks in clothing sales at Scott AFB, as they did not have OD green anymore at that time. Further, how much of it has to do with the increased ability for most squadrons' members to acquire black or white socks as opposed to OD given their distance from a MCSS. Food for thought on this issue.

[Hawk200]

Hawk,
I've talked to the cadet and she says the CC ok'd it. So I need to go talk to him and get us all on the same page. If he really does wish it to be a unit rule we need to get it in writing.

Such a policy is really unnecessary. Black socks are acceptable per manual. That part is covered.

As to white socks, if they're authorized then they shouldn't be forbidden. Not sure who made the rule, but there is no reason that members should have any further restrictions as far as the manual. The rules we have covering the issue of socks is fine as is. No reason to make any further ones.

Only allowing black socks is as bad as the myth that only staff are allowed black T-shirts. Making rules for their own sake is foolishness. Additional rules should be for clarification or to deal with safety issues, not to just make them.

[majdomke]

Some of the issues that drive me nuts regarding uniform inspections are: pants not hemmed, no nametag, forgotten hats, missing insignias, you name it. I've only rarely noticed the wrong socks and that's only been in the blues. I had one cadet come in with his cub scout belt in his blues. Took me a few double-takes to figure that one out. WIWAC we had fingernail and hand inspection. Works well for females who leave bright nail polish on and makes the males learn how to clean under the nails.

[heliodoc]

Page 2 on socks??

Solving CAP's sock problems one page at a time........ .

[Hawk200]

Page 2 on socks??

Solving CAP's sock problems one page at a time........ .

Hasn't stuck to just socks, covering some other issues too.

Should we discuss the best set of long nose pliers for you?

[PaulR]

The 39-1 reference says it all. We don't vote on compliance with a pub.

White socks are pretty inexpensive, too. I'm kinda surprised that you have cadets that don't have any.

And I am surprised that white socks are authorized with the BDU uniform.  I do agree that regs are made to be followed but there are some times when nonsensical   regs needs to be re-explored.   

Military grade boot socks are made in green and black.   They are made in a manner which protectes the foot, ankle, and lower leg from friction caused by the boot.  White socks do not do this and will allow the formation of blisters.  Not only that, but they are visually distracting.  Socks are not always out of sight.  The bloused BDU trouser does have a nack of riding up the leg a little, while sitting.

Sure, I could aways wear the black boot socks but simply overlooking an ill-conceived regulation is not doing anyone any good.

[Hawk200]

And I am surprised that white socks are authorized with the BDU uniform.

White socks have been allowed by the Air Force with utilities for a long time. It's only recently that they've included the "must be covered by black socks" so white doesn't show.

Military grade boot socks are made in green and black.

There are even better boot socks made in a myriad of colors. Tan, brown, sage, foliage, gray, just to name a few. Most of them are aftermarket like UnderArmor, Fox River, and a few others. The Army currently allows socks in tan, green or black for wear with utility uniforms.

They are made in a manner which protectes the foot, ankle, and lower leg from friction caused by the boot.

There are more than a few boot socks made in white as well, and some people might have reason to wear them.Saw a doctor yesterday that told me I shouldn't be wearing any colored socks. Apparently, they're causing problems with the foot fungus I picked up somewhere on my deployment. So, there are some legitimate reasons to wear them.

White socks do not do this and will allow the formation of blisters.

You're assuming that every white sock is made of the same material. They're not.  I've got a few "Smart Wool" sock pairs that have plenty of padding in the same areas. The socks are marketed to runners, but they have the same configuration of all the fancy boot socks I own.

Second, even if they don't have padding, it's not really an issue during regular meetings. I've worn the common white cotton athletic socks with boots before during my days as active Air Force, and never had a problem with blisters. If someone is getting blisters within three hours, there's another problem entirely.

Not only that, but they are visually distracting.  Socks are not always out of sight.  The bloused BDU trouser does have a nack of riding up the leg a little, while sitting. Sure, I could aways wear the black boot socks but simply overlooking an ill-conceived regulation is not doing anyone any good.

They're only distracting if you choose to be distracted by them. If they're white, then they meet the requirements of the publication. You're imposing personal preferences, not the regulatory direction of a publication.

But, there is a way that you can freely mandate that only black boot socks be worn in your unit. You can supply the socks.

[Eclipse]

Black or white, whatever.  The reg is clear, and we're not in the Army, so that's irrelevant.

You can find decent-quality socks suitable for most general CAP use at Wal*Mart.  I won't wear anything but socks from the MCSS that are clearly designed for boots, but in the end the most important thing is they are padded and long enough to cover the calf past the top of the boot to avoid chafing, etc. 

The last squadron I visited there was one cadet in blues - when he sat down I noticed he was wearing white anklets.   

[Hawk200]

Black or white, whatever.  The reg is clear, and we're not in the Army, so that's irrelevant.

Point taken. I mentioned the Army only to show other examples available.

The last squadron I visited there was one cadet in blues - when he sat down I noticed he was wearing white anklets.   

That's just wrong.

[ol'fido]

First, it was shirt tucking and now it's sock color. We continue to worry about the ants while the elephants are stomping us to death.

[Eclipse]

First, it was shirt tucking and now it's sock color. We continue to worry about the ants while the elephants are stomping us to death.

So now every discussion on this board has to be earth-shattering and org-changing to meet your criteria for posting?

[Pumbaa]

What color undi's can we wear???

Can I were thong?  Or do I have to wear boxers?

[DC]

What color undi's can we wear???

Can I were thong?  Or do I have to wear boxers?

Thank you. Someone has to point out the ridiculousness of arguing about socks.

[Gunner C]

What color undi's can we wear???

Can I were thong?  Or do I have to wear boxers?

If I can't see it, I don't care.

[DC]

What color undi's can we wear???

Can I were thong?  Or do I have to wear boxers?

If I can't see it, I don't care.

Precisely, and unless they've recently invented x-ray goggles, you can't see through boot leather.

Who cares if someone is wearing green, brown, pink, black, whatever colored socks, as long as they aren't going to kill their feet by wearing them (ankle socks, for instance).

Don't we have better things to worry about?

[RedFox24]

First, it was shirt tucking and now it's sock color. We continue to worry about the ants while the elephants are stomping us to death.

So now every discussion on this board has to be earth-shattering and org-changing to meet your criteria for posting?

org changing or earth shattering...........wow now that would be fun to read.

So long as we dont discuss the color of the lint in my navel during a CAP activity, I could care less, at that point you are going to far...................

[Eclipse]

As was pointed out earlier but apparently missed, we're talking about cadets here.

Cadets are inspected regularly and judged on their adherence to regulations.

[mmouw]

I would have to say what gets the job done is what is important. I have never been called out on the color of my socks in any uniform inspection I have been through in the Air Force. I also can say that I have never looked for the color of the cadets socks when doing a uniform inspection on BDUs. I have on blues because the uniform is usually what we present ourselves to the public in. That and you can't get by with white socks in blues because as soon as you sit down, your secret is out.

Until reading these posts, I had thought green socks were authorized for wear with the BDUs. I have been wearing them for a few years now because of extra padding in them. I know there are black socks like them but I wear green because they are not as hot. There are times when the reg has not been updated in some time (39-1), and there have been improvements on what was authorized for wear when written. Now don't get me wrong, there are common sense issues that should be handled at the lowest level possible. Showing up with some addition to the uniform because it looks cool is not what I am talking about. The comfort and safety of our people is what we should be thinking about, not what color of sock they have on when we are out looking for that downed aircraft. If we have kittens about the color of the socks our ground teams are wearing and that results in blisters that limits our abilities to perform our duties, that is the real issue.

I have been a cadet guy since I joined CAP some 18 years ago. I do think it is important to hold everyone accountable for uniform wear. I also think that when there is a question about an item like this, the chain of command is how it should be handled. Making a suggestion to the uniform committee is something that should take place when we have these issues.

[IceNine]

I have been a cadet guy since I joined CAP some 18 years ago. I do think it is important to hold everyone accountable for uniform wear.

You just summed up in one sentence the volunteer mentality.

39-1 gets ignored today.  Tomorrow its 60-1.

Holding people accountable for the simple things,  Leads to a compliance mentality.

Not pointing out simple things leads to "no one ever told me that"

[DC]

I have been a cadet guy since I joined CAP some 18 years ago. I do think it is important to hold everyone accountable for uniform wear.

You just summed up in one sentence the volunteer mentality.

39-1 gets ignored today.  Tomorrow its 60-1.

Holding people accountable for the simple things,  Leads to a compliance mentality.

Not pointing out simple things leads to "no one ever told me that"

Did you actually read what you quoted? He said he does believe everyone should be held accountable for uniform wear.

[IceNine]

Nope, I missed the n't

And went with the theme of the post.

I suppose I could modify to one of the other lines in the same post that proves my point

[Major Carrales]

39-1 gets ignored today.  Tomorrow its 60-1.

I would say that the above is a rather disingenuous assumption and assumes a culture of laziness among CAP aviators. This added to the fact that CAPM 39-1 is so seldom updated and many times out of date due to a litany of CAP policy letters whereas CAPR 60-1 is updated regularly to be in line with CAP policy in the field...I might say that CAPM 39-1 is inferior to CAPR 60-1 and CAPR 60-3. ( a point presented here for the purpose of debate)

I find it hard to believe that something like wearing a crew neck is quite the same as flying without the authority of a Flight Release.

Many of the mundane uniform issues are not really of considerable issue.  For example, CAPM 39-1 states that appropriate undergarments should be worn with all uniforms.  Does this mean that we should inspect everyone for this?  Make a public display of the activity and examples of those that fail it?  However, an Aircraft inspection as called for by CAPR 60-1 or other policy is clearly necessary and whose finding must be acted on.

All right, Devil's Advocacy aside...convince me that checking people's underwear is as important as preventing in flight issues that might result in the soiling of the prior.

[IceNine]

So choose another reg that doesn't insult specifically pilots but is just as important and the issue sticks.

"I sent in my CAP D/L form, I didn't think it was a problem to drive without it in my possession."

"No one told me I couldn't council cadets one on one, I never had a discussion because my commander didn't have time, and I was watching The Office as I clicked through the slides."

We are talking about attention to detail, compliance with those details, and cultivating and environment where there is no option but to comply with all of the rules or accept appropriate consequences.

[Major Carrales]

So choose another reg that doesn't insult specifically pilots but is just as important and the issue sticks.

"I sent in my CAP D/L form, I didn't think it was a problem to drive without it in my possession."

"No one told me I couldn't council cadets one on one, I never had a discussion because my commander didn't have time, and I was watching The Office as I clicked through the slides."

We are talking about attention to detail, compliance with those details, and cultivating and environment where there is no option but to comply with all of the rules or accept appropriate consequences.

My point is that the regs have to me equal as documents, policy and quality from the day they are published.  If you want that attention to detail to come from those in the field, then the reg writers and National leaders have to insure the regs are worthy of the attention of the membership.

If CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 60 Series are to be given the "gospel" like following you mention...then they must be treated alike by National.  Thus, changes need to be codified in more than a string of letters or mentions at the National Board.

Until then, you will have a hard time convincing people that what color the  socks a cadet wears are as important as aircraft maintenance.

[IceNine]

So choose another reg that doesn't insult specifically pilots but is just as important and the issue sticks.

"I sent in my CAP D/L form, I didn't think it was a problem to drive without it in my possession."

"No one told me I couldn't council cadets one on one, I never had a discussion because my commander didn't have time, and I was watching The Office as I clicked through the slides."

We are talking about attention to detail, compliance with those details, and cultivating and environment where there is no option but to comply with all of the rules or accept appropriate consequences.

My point is that the regs have to me equal as documents, policy and quality from the day they are published.  If you want that attention to detail to come from those in the field, then the reg writers and National leaders have to insure the regs are worthy of the attention of the membership.

If CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 60 Series are to be given the "gospel" like following you mention...then they must be treated alike by National.  Thus, changes need to be codified in more than a string of letters or mentions at the National Board.

Until then, you will have a hard time convincing people that what color the  socks a cadet wears are as important as aircraft maintenance.

I don't need to wait for NHQ, I have all the authority I need to enforce these things in my AOR.

While the corrective actions for these offenses are wildly different it doesn't change the fact that they need to be addressed, and as with all corrective action "At the lowest possible echelon" is the best course.

[Pumbaa]

I am going to have undergarment inspection for all hot senior female members.. The 39-1 says under garments need to be appropriate.  Need to make sure they are wearing the right color Victoria Secret bra and panty's!

This forum is a joke!  How about talking about something of real importance, rather than wasting bandwidth on this drivel.

How about the lack of leadership and standard business processes from HQ?

From the CAP HQ website publication list

M39-1    23 Mar 05    CAP Uniform Manual (4.5 M)

It is going on 4.5 years since this publication has been updated.  How many changes have we had since then?  How many interim letters of change do we have to sift through?

If it was so important you would think it would be updated!  Yet we have to contend with a litany of interim change orders.  Based on the definition of interim, even those have expired.

In this day and age of electronic documentation you would think a multi million dollar organization would update their publications for their members.

You want to know why CAP is viewed as a joke?

You've got a very public CAP forum debating sock color... and CAP national can't even update their publications in a timely manner.  It is the simple processes that makes this organization look bad. 

I will wear my polo untucked, I will wear whatever color sock I feel is comfortable.  Heck I'll wear my flight suit while having a goatee..

[davidsinn]

You want to know why CAP is viewed as a joke?

I will wear my polo untucked, I will wear whatever color sock I feel is comfortable.  Heck I'll wear my flight suit while having a goatee..

You answered your own question.

[jimmydeanno]

"No one told me I couldn't council cadets one on one, I never had a discussion because my commander didn't have time, and I was watching The Office as I clicked through the slides."

That's because that rule doesn't exist.  So nobody would have told you that...

[heliodoc]

AND page 3 for the joke of sock color

Pumbaa is on target.......CAP has really got to get MORE serious and the member more serious than sock wear

[arajca]

There are times when you need these light discussions.

[Eclipse]

AND page 3 for the joke of sock color

Pumbaa is on target.......CAP has really got to get MORE serious and the member more serious than sock wear

Ahh!  Now I understand the confusion.

CAPTalk is not CAP - you guys have been thinking that this is CAP.  Nothing that happens here remotely reflects the views, opinions, or official inclinations of NHQ.

Insinuating that it does probably means you should spend some more time reading your AOL "Getting Started" manual.

[Hawk200]

AND page 3 for the joke of sock color

Pumbaa is on target.......CAP has really got to get MORE serious and the member more serious than sock wear

The issue is not the color of socks. If you think that's the actual issue, then you lack the intelligence to be a member.

Now how many people know what the actual issue is? How many don't, even though there are numerous posts on the legitimate issue?

I know Gunner's got the guts to hold people accountable, who else does? Who else has the guts or the integrity to do the right thing, and own up to it instead of blowing it off?

[heliodoc]

ReallyY  it's not the color of the socks?

WOW I thought it was.  To analyze as a a legitimate issue, great.

Now back to real serious CAP discussion....4 pages on socks??

Gunner's not the only one with guts...there are more out there

But there are FAAARRR more serious issues in CAP than to worry about the color of someone's socks when they are wearing boots.  It OUGHT to take MORE guts for a CAP NHQ to put together a 39-1 on the same level as AR 670-1 or the AF series

But in all reality, this is CAP..... the home of the ICL and a 39-1 that needs a serious updating with more guts and INTEGRITY and TIMELINESS to get this one accomplished.

Oh wait, didn't they have a  Natl Board meeting this week and was a 39-1 update ever talked about

If it was.... it was glossed over I am sure

[Major Carrales]

Oh...you noticed the part where boots are worn over the socks completely obscuring them and making the socks a basically moot issue.

Seriously people, I think this issue is way past resolution and to the point of absurdity.  Just tell the cadet to get new socks or buy the cadet a pair and move on.

[heliodoc]

heh heh heh he said absurdity........

[IceNine]

"No one told me I couldn't council cadets one on one, I never had a discussion because my commander didn't have time, and I was watching The Office as I clicked through the slides."

That's because that rule doesn't exist.  So nobody would have told you that...

CAP members are expected to avoid even the appearance of impropriety involving cadets and report suspected abuse immediately.

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

Those 2 statements when combined makes a minimum of 3 the rule not the exception.

In this case "encourage" equals "shall" at least in my view of avoiding appearance of impropriety.

But this is not the discussion.

[Nick]

Right.  How did a 3-page thread on sock color (black or white (preferably not visible for the latter), by the way -- that took 3-pages to debate?) turn into a CPP interpretation?

[IceNine]

People challenge examples here.

Everything is open to scrutiny, wheter topic related or not.

[Nick]

People challenge examples here.

Everything is open to scrutiny, wheter topic related or not.

Ehhh ... yeah, I know people challenge examples here (sometimes to well beyond the extent reasonable and necessary).  I also know everything is open to scrutiny (especially around this place) ... and Mike/the other Mike/Jerry/Dan/etc., correct me if I'm seriously off-base here, but in the interest of maintaining substantive content in posts and not reading 5+ pages of inconsequental crap unrelated to a topic, aren't we all best served by keeping to the point of the topic and splitting off to a new topic when the conversation is obviously going that way?  Although that's been the intent ever since I've been here, people don't actually bother to do it.  Like I'm doing right now.  See what I mean?

[MIKE]

We'll just do this.