BDU Sock Color

[davidsinn]

M39-1

5 Socks Plain black or white socks may be worn with boots.

Just clarifying that that's saying my cadets can not wear OD green BDU socks? I've got some cadets that are on limited means and have BDU socks that were given to them. I'd like to let them wear them but as far as I can tell this passage is telling me no. Thoughts, comments?

[Hawk200]

The 39-1 reference says it all. We don't vote on compliance with a pub.

White socks are pretty inexpensive, too. I'm kinda surprised that you have cadets that don't have any.

[EMT-83]

A cadet has high-quality socks that may prevent a foot injury, but they're green.

Sounds like the slippery slope that will lead to the demise of the Civil Air Patrol. Come to think of it, my cadet has several pairs of these socks. I even remember paying for them.

[davidsinn]

The 39-1 reference says it all. We don't vote on compliance with a pub.

White socks are pretty inexpensive, too. I'm kinda surprised that you have cadets that don't have any.

They don't have any long enough to not cause blisters at the top of the boot. I was just trying to make life a bit easier on them. Looks they they'll have to get some.

A cadet has high-quality socks that may prevent a foot injury, but they're green.

Sounds like the slippery slope that will lead to the demise of the Civil Air Patrol. Come to think of it, my cadet has several pairs of these socks. I even remember paying for them.

The problem is I'm trying to get a culture of compliance built. I personally wear white socks that meet the letter of the law but not the spirit because they're ankle socks 

[EMT-83]

I get the culture of compliance thing. I'm the guy pulling members aside to discuss uniform issues.

Green socks with low quarter shoes – we're gonna have a chat. I do, however, draw the line at socks that no one will ever see.

[Hawk200]

Why not dye them, bleach them, or bleach them then dye them? You could do it pretty cheap if they're the ones I'm thinking of.

[Gunner C]

If you teach them to stuff their boots, then the point would be moot. 

[heliodoc]

Maybe in the REAL military when we are ISSUED these items, then it becomes a worry

IN CAP and wearing boots?

Now you guys are REEEAAAAALLLY reaching for that 39-1 stuff

Do the socks fit the bill for outdoor use?   A THAT should be your overarching questions AND what the the person has or can afford

Culture of compliance?  WOW!  Does CAP not have a culture of common sense or practicality.  The AFEES and MCSS store are selling BLACK, GREEN and WHITE ,,,, Maybe in the future CAP will adopt what the military sells and issues and forever realign that hideous 39-1 once-n-for all

Now we got CAP 39-1 sock police!! SHEESESSH

[DC]

Sock color. Seriously. Sock color.

Who gives a [rodent's posterior] what color their socks are with BDUs, if they are showing up to meetings and actively participating in the cadet program?

Really, regulations are important, but you have to exercise some degree of common sense from time to time.

[Airrace]

I personaly wear white socks but black is good as well.

[wuzafuzz]

If the fellow fighting the Taliban in "Hello Kitty" boxers can get a pass, I'd give a cadet a pass on socks no one will ever see outside of extreme circumstances.

I'm usually a "rules" guy, but this falls into the don't worry about it category.

[davidsinn]

Normally I'd agree with the guys saying "who gives a piece of levitating simian excrement"  The problem is my C/CC is the one that is cracking down on it and I can't really tell her to ignore a rule can I? She told them last night that our unit has a rule that we only wear black socks. We don't have that rule. I told her any thing like that needs to go through me and be signed by the CC (in writing) before it is a rule. I was under the impression that green socks were actually authorized until I looked that up last night.

My problem is I need to reel in a C/CC that gets just a touch too FMJ at times, make sure everyone respects the rules, Use my common sense and make parents happy.

Command is a lonely place isn't it? 

[jimmydeanno]

Well, CAPM 39-1 does say White OR Black.  What about those people who have the White AND Black boot socks...

[NC Hokie]

Here's my solution...

If I see it, it better be in regs; if I don't see it, it's between you and God.  I simply do not have the time to fit a sock check into an already packed schedule.

[Eclipse]

Here's my solution...

If I see it, it better be in regs; if I don't see it, it's between you and God.  I simply do not have the time to fit a sock check into an already packed schedule.

And I would agree that's a reasonable position for Senior Members.

David is referring to Cadets who are regularly inspected on their uniforms as part of their progression, and at some activities packing the proper gear, how its stored, etc., is part of that inspection.

Also, while to some of you the ankle sock comment was funny, that's because you understand.  We see that on a regular basis with new cadets, and we see a lot of dress socks and other non-boot-sock options.

Those of you who have spent time marching know how critical proper footwear is, including the fit.

I'd say use the greens for the inside pair when two are needed, but make sure everyone understands the expectation, and they all should have at least one pair that will pass muster.

Like outerwear and a few other places we tend to turn a blind eye when it comes to cadets, making an allowance for safety doesn't relieve the cadet of knowing the regs or fixing things when they have the opportunity.

[Hawk200]

The problem is my C/CC is the one that is cracking down on it and I can't really tell her to ignore a rule can I?

Not really. Sets a bad precedent to tell her that.

She told them last night that our unit has a rule that we only wear black socks. We don't have that rule. I told her any thing like that needs to go through me and be signed by the CC (in writing) before it is a rule.

In such a case, there needs to be a little conversation with that cadet. Find out if it's a misimpression on her part, or if she made the statement to assure compliance.

If it's the latter, there's a little integrity issue. If she's under the impression that it actually was a unit rule, explain that it isn't, it's actually a 39-1 directive.

In cases of being declaritive, we need to absolutely sure that what we're saying is the truth. In the case of uniforms, we can be absolutely truthful. The uniform manual, supplements, and ICLs are readily available.

It may be a PITA to keep on top of everything, but it can be done. If a unit has Internet, things can be pulled up when the question arises. As for the ones who don't, things can be referenced before we attend the meeting, or the night before if the time isn't available on the day of.

My problem is I need to reel in a C/CC that gets just a touch too FMJ at times, make sure everyone respects the rules, Use my common sense and make parents happy.

The FMJ behavior can be an issue at times with a lot of cadets. Have talks with the cadet when the behavior approaches the border line. That's part of mentoring. Gets easier with practice, because you will almost always see it again.

Command is a lonely place isn't it? 

Yup, it sure can be.

[TankerT]

If you have time to do sock inspections, I envy you.  I wish I had all the big problems solved.

[davidsinn]

If you have time to do sock inspections, I envy you.  I wish I had all the big problems solved.

We don't have the time but it's part of a larger crack down on not bad, but not quite up to snuff uniforms. So for the moment we are making the time and then it'll just be reinforcement in the future.

Hawk,
I've talked to the cadet and she says the CC ok'd it. So I need to go talk to him and get us all on the same page. If he really does wish it to be a unit rule we need to get it in writing.

[Maj Daniel Sauerwein]

I wonder if the reason for the sock colors noted in 39-1 has to do with the military moving to black socks for wear with boots. Consider that AFI 36-2903 authorizes black socks with the BDU, with the option to wear white socks.

5 Socks (Black) Plain without design. Plain white socks may be worn with combat boots.
Wear black socks over the white socks to preclude white socks from
showing.

My father, who is a retired 1SG from the Army had to buy black socks in clothing sales at Scott AFB, as they did not have OD green anymore at that time. Further, how much of it has to do with the increased ability for most squadrons' members to acquire black or white socks as opposed to OD given their distance from a MCSS. Food for thought on this issue.

[Hawk200]

Hawk,
I've talked to the cadet and she says the CC ok'd it. So I need to go talk to him and get us all on the same page. If he really does wish it to be a unit rule we need to get it in writing.

Such a policy is really unnecessary. Black socks are acceptable per manual. That part is covered.

As to white socks, if they're authorized then they shouldn't be forbidden. Not sure who made the rule, but there is no reason that members should have any further restrictions as far as the manual. The rules we have covering the issue of socks is fine as is. No reason to make any further ones.

Only allowing black socks is as bad as the myth that only staff are allowed black T-shirts. Making rules for their own sake is foolishness. Additional rules should be for clarification or to deal with safety issues, not to just make them.