NB Minutes "CAP has had more visable suicides lately"

[NIN]

I spent 28 years as a cadet & senior.  I know of only a few incidences of suicide in CAP in those 28 years, most of them anecdotal, not someone in my unit or even someone I knew.

Strike that. A former member, a guy who I was a cadet with and later he served as my deputy commander, pitched himself off a building couple years back after being convicted of bilking law firm clients of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

He hadn't been a member for 10+ years when this happened, so I hardly think its would have been CAP's issue in any event.

[DogCollar]

Good grief.  I'll be pissed if this turns into another useless training/awareness class.  CAP needs to round up the do-gooder recreational bureaucrats and shoot them dead. 

Or give them the guns to shoot themselves dead (this post was about suicides.....remember??)

Even in jest, these posts are uncalled for and offensive.

[NIN]

Again Ned, you and the other out of touch "leaders" at NHQ don't know if you can field an effective program, but you can cram a bunch more useless, time consuming, restrictive mandates down the throats of our paying volunteer members for problems that don't exist or that you lack the "expertise and recourses" for so that the NB can have a warm fuzzy feeling when they sit at the bar and pat each other on the back.

Woah, there, nelly.. I missed this in my initial read-thru.. That was a little over the top.

a) Ned's not suggesting this is something we need to pursue, and in fact seems to me to be suggesting that this might actually be tilting at windmills to throw any more mandates on the membership surrounding something that is, at the face, probably a non-problem and is not even supported by any evidence...
b) If you're also making commentary on the new safety program, then I assume you believe that preventable accidents that cause injury in CAP is also a "problem that does not exist."   When we have substantial evidence that we do, indeed, have preventable accidents that cause injury in CAP.  The jury in still out, however, on the efficacy of the corrective measures in the National Commander's recent policy letter.  That's an entirely different kettle of fish.

[DogCollar]

Talking about suicides is one thing that we know for certain increases suicides.  Do we want the same CAP geniuses that taught quarters in a DARE program to talk about suicide?  Especially when suicide isn't a problem for our population.  I don't want to belittle anyone's death but a couple of members killing themselves every year is not a problem to be addressed.  I wonder how many CAP members die per year falling off ladders?  I think we should have mandatory ladder safety classes and work or way up to suicide prevention.  Wait let's do shower safety, ladder safety,  then suicide.     

That statement is patently false.  Talking about suicides realistically, directly and with a trained person prevents suicide.

[Spike]

I feel for the families and friends of those that have taken their own life.  But in CAP, it is rather rare.  I would make an educated guess and say that in the past 10 years there have been less than 10 suicides by CAP members.  Granted one is too many!

The very last one was very, very tragic.  However, from speaking with her friends and those personnel around her at the time, she showed no signs or symptoms before she killed herself. 

[Spike]

Good grief.  I'll be pissed if this turns into another useless training/awareness class.  CAP needs to round up the do-gooder recreational bureaucrats and shoot them dead. 

Or give them the guns to shoot themselves dead (this post was about suicides.....remember??)

Even in jest, these posts are uncalled for and offensive.

Maybe some of us are tired of walking on eggshells around the "politically correct types"

Free speech and all.  I remember when it was funny to make fun of others misfortunes.  Now do it and you can be sued.  What has this country come to. 

[FW]

*sigh*

Much as I hate to admit it, Maj Lord is right: The paper quoted above does a poor job of showing decision makers that Civil Air Patrol, specifically, has a suicide problem. At least any more so that, say, a school or neighborhood.   I am loathe to call it "fear mongering" but the way its written leaves the conclusion so unclear that I get the impression that the author hopes that people will make a leap of logic and assume that because the stats for the country are there, and we draw from the population of our country, clearly we have a "problem" when probably we do not.

The paper was not intended to show "decision makers" we have a suicide problem in CAP.  I took it as an overview/summary paper on suicide and a need to be watchful of it and, deal with it properly when it does happen.  No one expects the membership to become therapists.  We do expect however, we all know help is available and, how to refer to the experts who can help when needed.

[Spike]

........The paper was not intended to show "decision makers" we have a suicide problem in CAP.  I took it as an overview/summary paper on suicide and a need to be watchful of it and, deal with it properly when it does happen.....

Funny that the "Regular Membership" does not take it the same way you took it.  (we all must be dumb uneducated grunts trolling around the bottom depths of CAP)  Also, "dealing with it properly when it does happen"......well that is like being late to your own party Sir.

How does Finance fit into suicides again?  That is what you do..right??

[MIKE]

Watch it Spike.  You want a vacation?

[Spike]

Guess I cant ask National Board Members questions, or reply to their posts.  Ok I see how it is run around here. 

[Major Carrales]

I wouldn't subscribe to the idea that "CAP is causing suicides."  We don't do CAP activities often enough (most don't do CAP as a daily activity, I mean daily meetings although they might have CAP on their minds.

Now, being aware of suicides and keeping the mental health of our fellow officers and cadets in mind is a part of "fellowship" between squadron members.  Sometimes a caring ear and sympathetic support from "friends," true ones,  in CAP can stave off such problems.

 

[FW]

Good retort, Spike.

As a former squadron/cc, gp/cc, wing/cc, region/cs and now, senior member of the NEC, I think I can offer my opinions on this subject. 

Also as a health care professional, CISM trained member and one who has firsthand knowledge of traumatic events, I understand the need for "CISM" and to being aware.

I was also on the "call" when the paper was presented to the NB last week.  I know why the paper was presented and, I know what the NB intends to do with this paper, thank you.

As far as the relationship between finance and suicide.... ever go through 1500 unit CAPF 173-2s? 

[NIN]

Guess I cant ask National Board Members questions, or reply to their posts.  Ok I see how it is run around here.

Not at all.  I read your replies and they seem snide and disrespectful.

Either your delivery is poor, or you're really intending to be snide and disrespectful.

In the medium of the Internet, you lose all of the verbal cues (inflection, etc) and many of the non-verbal cues (facial expressions, body language) that you would during normal conversation.

In any event, as is taught in the cadet leadership materials, in the communication process, if the receiver takes the sender's meaning incorrectly, it likely that the sender is sending the "wrong" message.

[Major Lord]

Talking about suicides is one thing that we know for certain increases suicides.  Do we want the same CAP geniuses that taught quarters in a DARE program to talk about suicide?  Especially when suicide isn't a problem for our population.  I don't want to belittle anyone's death but a couple of members killing themselves every year is not a problem to be addressed.  I wonder how many CAP members die per year falling off ladders?  I think we should have mandatory ladder safety classes and work or way up to suicide prevention.  Wait let's do shower safety, ladder safety,  then suicide.     

That statement is patently false.  Talking about suicides realistically, directly and with a trained person prevents suicide.

Chaplain, I think you are correct to say talking (which is to say, intervening in a crisis) about suicide to a person at risk ( actively contemplating hurting themselves or others) is probably an effective tool for preventing suicide in those individuals. Teenagers presenting a special risk of suicide are those involved in drugs and alcohol, come from broken or violent homes, victims of sexual abuse, and homosexuals. My guess is that kids drawn to CAP generally don't fall into these high risk groups.

We assume, since the prevention models as exemplified by the Air Force are so prevalent, that they must be effective. The actual evidence suggests otherwise. A good example is the DARE program, a program demonstrated by the U.S GAO to actually make the drug situation worse in inner cities. Just having good intentions is not sufficient.

If you google "efficacy of suicide prevention programs" you will find that attempts to introduce frank discussion and enforced programs  about suicide in broad, and non-select groups of adolescents, actually increases the risk of suicide. To a carpenter, the worlds problems can be solved with a hammer, to a psychologist, therapy and "education" programs are the tools of choice, to a lawyer, risk and liabilty are his gods, and a perfect social order can only be created by having everyone on the planet sign a statement showing informed consent. When we deal with suicide issues, we get an amalgamation of these last two models, the medical and the legal, both of which are clearly imperfect tools. 

If you want to eliminate suicide in CAP, just make sure you don't accept any kids from high risk environments-the (anecdotally) near absent risk of suicide among cadets is not sufficient cause to create a program created and administered by amateurs who are more likely to cause more harm then good.

Major Lord

[Major Carrales]

Guess I cant ask National Board Members questions, or reply to their posts.  Ok I see how it is run around here.

In the medium of the Internet, you lose all of the verbal cues (inflection, etc) and many of the non-verbal cues (facial expressions, body language) that you would during normal conversation.

I agree, many time my attempts to use so-called STANDARD ENGLISH (the Queen's English) has been misinterpreted as being "arrogant."  So even the best constructed and symantically correct posts can be seen for something other than what they are.

On the rare occasions when I have spouted vitriol (long ago before I was pummled by Civil Air Portal and CAPTALK denizens, and my own moral code) I have quickly seen the error and uslessness of being less than respectful.

[Climbnsink]

Talking about suicides is one thing that we know for certain increases suicides.  Do we want the same CAP geniuses that taught quarters in a DARE program to talk about suicide?  Especially when suicide isn't a problem for our population.  I don't want to belittle anyone's death but a couple of members killing themselves every year is not a problem to be addressed.  I wonder how many CAP members die per year falling off ladders?  I think we should have mandatory ladder safety classes and work or way up to suicide prevention.  Wait let's do shower safety, ladder safety,  then suicide.     

That statement is patently false.  Talking about suicides realistically, directly and with a trained person prevents suicide.

Chaplain, I think you are correct to say talking (which is to say, intervening in a crisis) about suicide to a person at risk ( actively contemplating hurting themselves or others) is probably an effective tool for preventing suicide in those individuals. Teenagers presenting a special risk of suicide are those involved in drugs and alcohol, come from broken or violent homes, victims of sexual abuse, and homosexuals. My guess is that kids drawn to CAP generally don't fall into these high risk groups.

We assume, since the prevention models as exemplified by the Air Force are so prevalent, that they must be effective. The actual evidence suggests otherwise. A good example is the DARE program, a program demonstrated by the U.S GAO to actually make the drug situation worse in inner cities. Just having good intentions is not sufficient.

If you google "efficacy of suicide prevention programs" you will find that attempts to introduce frank discussion and enforced programs  about suicide in broad, and non-select groups of adolescents, actually increases the risk of suicide. To a carpenter, the worlds problems can be solved with a hammer, to a psychologist, therapy and "education" programs are the tools of choice, to a lawyer, risk and liabilty are his gods, and a perfect social order can only be created by having everyone on the planet sign a statement showing informed consent. When we deal with suicide issues, we get an amalgamation of these last two models, the medical and the legal, both of which are clearly imperfect tools. 

If you want to eliminate suicide in CAP, just make sure you don't accept any kids from high risk environments-the (anecdotally) near absent risk of suicide among cadets is not sufficient cause to create a program created and administered by amateurs who are more likely to cause more harm then good.

Major Lord

Thank you.  There is a ton of research that shows that suicides and talk of suicides beget more suicides.  It is somewhat odd as a publicized suicide will raise an areas suicide rate, then the rate drops back to normal, it isn't folks that were waiting and chose to off themselves because 'now is the time' it is a different subset of people that commit suicide.  It is dangerous and counterproductive for CAP to be messing with stuff.   And it is far more complicated than read the pamphlet and pass the online 'suicide prevention hero test.'  CAP should leave this one alone.  PS I still think the do-gooder recreational bureaucrats should be shot. 

[Pumbaa]

Suicide problem in CAP is caused by too many uniform changes and the associate CAPtalk threads.

[Major Lord]

Talking about suicides is one thing that we know for certain increases suicides.  Do we want the same CAP geniuses that taught quarters in a DARE program to talk about suicide?  Especially when suicide isn't a problem for our population.  I don't want to belittle anyone's death but a couple of members killing themselves every year is not a problem to be addressed.  I wonder how many CAP members die per year falling off ladders?  I think we should have mandatory ladder safety classes and work or way up to suicide prevention.  Wait let's do shower safety, ladder safety,  then suicide.     

That statement is patently false.  Talking about suicides realistically, directly and with a trained person prevents suicide.

Chaplain, I think you are correct to say talking (which is to say, intervening in a crisis) about suicide to a person at risk ( actively contemplating hurting themselves or others) is probably an effective tool for preventing suicide in those individuals. Teenagers presenting a special risk of suicide are those involved in drugs and alcohol, come from broken or violent homes, victims of sexual abuse, and homosexuals. My guess is that kids drawn to CAP generally don't fall into these high risk groups.

We assume, since the prevention models as exemplified by the Air Force are so prevalent, that they must be effective. The actual evidence suggests otherwise. A good example is the DARE program, a program demonstrated by the U.S GAO to actually make the drug situation worse in inner cities. Just having good intentions is not sufficient.

If you google "efficacy of suicide prevention programs" you will find that attempts to introduce frank discussion and enforced programs  about suicide in broad, and non-select groups of adolescents, actually increases the risk of suicide. To a carpenter, the worlds problems can be solved with a hammer, to a psychologist, therapy and "education" programs are the tools of choice, to a lawyer, risk and liabilty are his gods, and a perfect social order can only be created by having everyone on the planet sign a statement showing informed consent. When we deal with suicide issues, we get an amalgamation of these last two models, the medical and the legal, both of which are clearly imperfect tools. 

If you want to eliminate suicide in CAP, just make sure you don't accept any kids from high risk environments-the (anecdotally) near absent risk of suicide among cadets is not sufficient cause to create a program created and administered by amateurs who are more likely to cause more harm then good.

Major Lord

Thank you.  There is a ton of research that shows that suicides and talk of suicides beget more suicides.  It is somewhat odd as a publicized suicide will raise an areas suicide rate, then the rate drops back to normal, it isn't folks that were waiting and chose to off themselves because 'now is the time' it is a different subset of people that commit suicide.  It is dangerous and counterproductive for CAP to be messing with stuff.   And it is far more complicated than read the pamphlet and pass the online 'suicide prevention hero test.'  CAP should leave this one alone.  PS I still think the do-gooder recreational bureaucrats should be shot.

I would have been happier to have you agree with me had you left out the rhetorical wishes for gunshot wounds. Having had some experience with shootings, I can safely say that its not something I would wish on someone merely because they disagree with me. I am sure you mean it as a joke, but frankly, it makes you sound like a nut.

Major Lord

[NIN]

Thank you.  There is a ton of research that shows that suicides and talk of suicides beget more suicides.  It is somewhat odd as a publicized suicide will raise an areas suicide rate, then the rate drops back to normal, it isn't folks that were waiting and chose to off themselves because 'now is the time' it is a different subset of people that commit suicide.

Hey, call it crazy, but we experience an unusual "bump" in the number of people who want to skydive in the wake of an accident at a DZ.     Weird, huh?  We had a skydiver get stuck in a tree couple weeks back, must have been a slow news day in Boston as we had two news helos overhead and two news crews show up on the ground.  Skydiver wasn't hurt (more embarrassed) and the phones rang off the hook for the next two days with people wanting to book tandem jumps.  Seriously!

[Climbnsink]

Major Lord it's a joke that offended so I repeated it.  Some of us roll that way.