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Green Flight Suits

Started by cadetnelson, April 09, 2006, 04:00:40 AM

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cadetnelson

Sorry, still trying to figure out how to navigate the web of policy memos, regulations, etc. dealing with uniforms.  Can anyone tell me if the green flight suits are still authorized for cadets? (were they ever not authorized?  I just only saw one link at Vanguard and about a billion for the royal blue one).  If they are, does anyone know if they are planned to be discontinued?  Thanks.
C/Amn Nelson

Pace

Green (Air Force style) flight suits are still authorized for seniors and cadets.  The current 39-1 authorizes them; however, you shouldn't be wearing it unless you hold or are training for an aircrew position.
Lt Col, CAP

Eclipse

As stated, flying activities only.  No grade is worn, otherwise it is set up the same as seniors.

"That Others May Zoom"

Pace

Also, the namepatch says "CADET" instead of the specific grade.
Lt Col, CAP

cadetnelson

C/Amn Nelson

Pylon

Quote from: dcpacemaker
Also, the namepatch says "CADET" instead of the specific grade.

Well, just because CAPMart only used to print "CADET" and not specific grade doesn't mean that a cadet can't have his or her specific cadet grade printed on the leather name badge.   There's no regulatory support for that restriction. 

Of course, it can be cost prohibitve for a cadet to have a specific grade printed on the badge because of the frequency of cadet promotions.  That is, unless of course, you're like me when I was a cadet officer and you promoted about once every other year.   ;)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

MIKE

Quote from: Pylon on April 09, 2006, 06:00:23 PM
Quote from: dcpacemaker
Also, the namepatch says "CADET" instead of the specific grade.

Well, just because CAPMart only used to print "CADET" and not specific grade doesn't mean that a cadet can't have his or her specific cadet grade printed on the leather name badge.   There's no regulatory support for that restriction.

There was, but it was in the previous edition of CAPM 39-1.  As far as I can tell no such restriction exists in the current manual.
Mike Johnston

BillB

And why would a cadet want to put his grade on the leather patch? In theory, they would only be able to wear it six months or so since they would have to advance in the cadet program. Unless of course they do not progress and stay as a career C/CMSgt or C/2Lt, but then again, that violates the cadet oath.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Nick

I can't blame a Cadet Colonel for doing it. :)
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

Pace

AFROTC cadets flight suit nametags have "CADET".  The old 39-1 required "CADET".  I'm willing to bet money that this is another oversight by NHQ with the new edition of 39-1.  In the flying world of CAP, you're constantly dealing with SMs (no way around that).  Remind me again how CAPP 151 instructs SMs to address cadets...
Lt Col, CAP

cadetnelson

P.S.  What is an "aircrew position" by the way?  Sorry, that may be a dumb question but I'm new.
C/Amn Nelson

Pylon

Quote from: cadetnelson on April 09, 2006, 09:07:43 PM
P.S.  What is an "aircrew position" by the way?  Sorry, that may be a dumb question but I'm new.

Generally, someone with an aircrew position is a member who is trained or is training to work as a part of the crew on an aircraft (in other words, they have a purpose in the aircraft other than sight-seeing).  In a CAP context, this would include Pilots, Observers, Scanners, ARCHER and SDIS operators, photographers, etc. 

This term is obviously broader when used in a military context, as there are numerous other duties considered aircrew.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

cadetnelson

Oh.  What are the qualifications necessary to train to be a member of a flight crew?  For example, outside of the CAP I am a photographer.  What could I do to become a photographer on an aircrew?
C/Amn Nelson

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: cadetnelson on April 09, 2006, 09:17:18 PM
Oh.  What are the qualifications necessary to train to be a member of a flight crew?  For example, outside of the CAP I am a photographer.  What could I do to become a photographer on an aircrew?

For cadets, you must be at least 18 to train for a mission aircrew position (scanner, observer, mission pilot, stan/eval). This is for insurance reasons. If you earn your solo badge, you could wear a green bag (aka flight suit) because you are training for an aircrew position. But that's up to 39-1 and your squadron/group/wing policy.

ARCHER - you must be mission scanner qualified and have passed the one-shot only ARCHER screening exam online. That only puts you in a pool of trainees who might be sent to either Maxwell AFB or Mojave, California on CAP's dime for a four-day drink-from-a-fire-hose course on how to operate the system. My squadron has one of the ARCHER equipped GA-8s and several qualified ARCHER crews, and they tell me that the course is VERY intense and not everyone passes it.

SDIS - not as intensive as ARCHER but enables scanners to take digital pictures and send them via satellite phone to mission base or other locations as needed.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

JAFO

Quote from: Eclipse on April 09, 2006, 04:49:52 AM
As stated, flying activities only.  No grade is worn, otherwise it is set up the same as seniors.

There is NOTHING in 39-1 that restricts flightsuits to flying activities only, it restricts it to flight crew members only. Big difference.

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: JAFO on April 10, 2006, 01:49:24 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 09, 2006, 04:49:52 AM
As stated, flying activities only.  No grade is worn, otherwise it is set up the same as seniors.

There is NOTHING in 39-1 that restricts flightsuits to flying activities only, it restricts it to flight crew members only. Big difference.

Wear of the green bag (and by extension the blue bag) is for flying activities by flight crews only and for making essential stops to and from the flying activity. No such restriction applies to the CAP blue utility uniform (aka the 'poor man's flight suit'), which is identical in style to the flight suit except for it's not NOMEX (and the accompanying price tag). This is rarely enforced in CAP, however.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

JAFO

#16
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 10, 2006, 03:30:37 AM
Quote from: JAFO on April 10, 2006, 01:49:24 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 09, 2006, 04:49:52 AM
As stated, flying activities only.  No grade is worn, otherwise it is set up the same as seniors.

There is NOTHING in 39-1 that restricts flightsuits to flying activities only, it restricts it to flight crew members only. Big difference.

Wear of the green bag (and by extension the blue bag) is for flying activities by flight crews only and for making essential stops to and from the flying activity. No such restriction applies to the CAP blue utility uniform (aka the 'poor man's flight suit'), which is identical in style to the flight suit except for it's not NOMEX (and the accompanying price tag). This is rarely enforced in CAP, however.

I reiterate yet again, 39-1 says NOTHING AT ALL about flight activities!!! What 39-1 says pertaining to flight suits is:

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Chapter 2-1 dFlight Crew members wearing the green Air Force flight suit may make only essential stops en route to and from the duty performance site. If a stop is essential, members must meet the proper standards of neatness, cleanliness and military image.

This is the little gem that folks try to use to say that the flight suits are unauth when not actually flying. As you'll notice, the words "flight activity" do not appear anywhere in this paragraph. This is a question then of interpretation. For flight suit wearers, we interpret as "I'm a rated pilot/observer/scanner, therefore I'm aircrew" The other side interprets as "you're only flight crew when you're flying". I'll address several points here to back my position.

First, as you can see, this paragraph only pertains to the green flight suits. The word green was added to the most recent release of 39-1 last year, because wear of the blue bag is covered in Chapter 4 with the corporate uniforms. Table 4-5 is worded "flight crews", but does not give the "necessary stops only" mandate that Chapter 2-1 d does, nor does it mention travel at all. It simply says that flight crews may wear it. It also does not make any mention of "flight activity".

Second, Chapter 2-1 d says "duty performance site". Not airplane, not airport, not flight activity, but "duty performance site" without specifying what the duty is. I'm a CAP pilot and hold several other CAP aircrew ratings, this makes me an "aircrew member" all the time. Just because my duty at the squadron meeting that evening doesn't include flying right then, does not mean that I'm not going to and from my duty performance site! Incidentally, I've been sent on enough missions either during or immediately after a regular unit meeting to see the merit in being in my flight clothing and mission ready. Once again pertaining to the blue bag, Table 4-5 makes no metion of travel, duty site or flying, it simply says that flight crews may wear it.

Third, in the absence of a specific limitation on wear of flight suits to non flying activities in the manual, we have Knowledgebase answer #1551:

Quote from: CAP Knowledgbase
Wearing the AF style flight suit to weekly unit meetings

  Question
  Can the Air Force-style flight suit be worn by CAP pilots to the weekly unit meeting?

  Answer
  There are some restrictions in the CAP Uniform Manual on wearing the AF style flight suit. Basically, the AF flight suit may be worn during travel to and from activities provided it is not by commercial means and only essential stops are made enroute to and from the duty performance site. Wear of the AF flight suit while shopping or other nonessential activities would be prohibited. Within these restrictions, allowing members to wear the AF flight suit to unit meetings would be up to the unit commander.

See Paragraph 2-1d from CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual and knowledgebase answer(s) below for additional details.

Also see Answer 990: Wearing the flight suit to a CAP activity Click Here

Answer 1133: New CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual Click Here

So obviously NHQ defines a "Flight Crew member"  by their ratings/101 quals and not by "what I'll be doing at tonight's meeting". This would also seem to be the USAF's rationale for their members as well, otherwise our friends in CAPRAP who have been off flight status for some time wouldn't be allowed to wear their bags to our meetings and activities. Simply put, flight crew status follows the ratings, not the duty for the evening. Incidentally, my unit has a written SOP in place authorizing flight suits for wear to the regular unit meetings.

Finally, I leave you with this. I'm sure that most of you who criticize those who do wear flight suits to meetings wear your BDUs to weekly meetings. One paragraph above the one that is used for the "no flight suit" gripe is this:

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Chapter 2-1 cThe battle dress uniform (camouflage fatigue uniform) is worn when it is impractical or inappropriate to wear the service uniforms.

I would like to know how then you would rationalize allowing wear of BDUs to a regular meeting with no outdoor activities. It seems that it is neither "impractical or inappropriate" to wear a service uniform if you don't plan to go outside, so what gives?

(Disclaimer: I don't have a problem with BDUs at weekly meetings, I just want to see how you justify one and not the other.)

mikeylikey

I allow those members who hold a rating or are part of flight crews, either on paper or in training to wear their flight suit to meetings when bdu's are the prescribed uniform for the night.  If anything, I use it as a recruiting tool.  Lets not forget, BDU's are not the basic uniform for CAP.  Whatever is confortable and practical for the meeting is what is allowed.  I have come across too many people who use uniforms as a tool to separate certain groups in CAP.  the flight suit is one.  If there were a member that is not training for flight crew positions, I would too allow them to wear the flight suit as long as they wore it properly.  That is my prerogative as a unit commander.  Lets not further the misconception that CAP is just a "flying club" for only a few!
What's up monkeys?

Eclipse

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 10, 2006, 03:45:02 PM
I allow those members who hold a rating or are part of flight crews, either on paper or in training to wear their flight suit to meetings when bdu's are the prescribed uniform for the night.  If anything, I use it as a recruiting tool.  Lets not forget, BDU's are not the basic uniform for CAP.  Whatever is confortable and practical for the meeting is what is allowed.  I have come across too many people who use uniforms as a tool to separate certain groups in CAP.  the flight suit is one.  If there were a member that is not training for flight crew positions, I would too allow them to wear the flight suit as long as they wore it properly.  That is my prerogative as a unit commander.  Lets not further the misconception that CAP is just a "flying club" for only a few!

In the USAF, a flight suit is considered the day-uniform for members who are current and former aircrew.  The issue with the flight suit is that it is the least "distinctive" of the work-uniform choices, and thus NHQ's reticence about members wearing it outside of flight duties.

It is also the "lazy-man's uniform and looks like crap.  Thus, it should only be worn when flying.

"That Others May Zoom"

cadetnelson

wow.  I had no idea this would be such a hot topic  ;D  I was just still overwhelmed by the large volume of uniform regulations and wondered if there was a real "difference" between the green/blue flight suits.  Thanks everyone, and thank you for your philosophies on advancement too.  :D
C/Amn Nelson

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: cadetnelson on April 10, 2006, 06:56:40 PM
wow.  I had no idea this would be such a hot topic  ;D  I was just still overwhelmed by the large volume of uniform regulations and wondered if there was a real "difference" between the green/blue flight suits.  Thanks everyone, and thank you for your philosophies on advancement too.  :D

No problem. Green bag - follow CAP grooming/weight standards. Blue bag (nomex and 'poor man's flight suit' utility uniform) - no restrictions on weight and grooming.

Yea... there's always a sense of elitism between aircrew and everyone else; it's carried over from the RealAirForce (tm).  They get a little territorial about their distinctiveness. ;D
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

cadetnelson

#21
Okay.  So I have a real-life hypothetical situation for you guys.  Assuming you were 18, a member of or training to be part of a flight crew, and you were working CAP business at an air show, you would be authorized to wear the "green bag" even though you are not technically flying, but you are still a part of a flight crew?

Also, I saw someone in one of these green suits and they were CAP, not USAF, but it looked to me they had a black flight cap on, not the navy blue one.  Was it just the light or do these caps exist?

Thank you.


P.S. back to the aircrew question:  Do all CAP wings/squadrons? have aircrews?  How do you start one?  What do you do and when do you do it?
C/Amn Nelson

MIKE

Quote from: cadetnelson on April 11, 2006, 12:59:36 AM
Okay.  So I have a real-life hypothetical situation for you guys.  Assuming you were 18, a member of or training to be part of a flight crew, and you were working CAP business at an air show, you would be authorized to wear the "green bag" even though you are not technically flying, but you are still a part of a flight crew?

It depends what the wing/squadron policy is.

Quote from: cadetnelson on April 11, 2006, 12:59:36 AM
P.S. back to the aircrew question:  Do all CAP wings/squadrons? have aircrews?  How do you start one?  What do you do and when do you do it?

Not all squadrons will have aircrews... Members may be assigned to aircrews from different units within a wing.
Mike Johnston

Monty

Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2006, 05:55:56 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 10, 2006, 03:45:02 PM
I allow those members who hold a rating or are part of flight crews, either on paper or in training to wear their flight suit to meetings when bdu's are the prescribed uniform for the night.  If anything, I use it as a recruiting tool.  Lets not forget, BDU's are not the basic uniform for CAP.  Whatever is confortable and practical for the meeting is what is allowed.  I have come across too many people who use uniforms as a tool to separate certain groups in CAP.  the flight suit is one.  If there were a member that is not training for flight crew positions, I would too allow them to wear the flight suit as long as they wore it properly.  That is my prerogative as a unit commander.  Lets not further the misconception that CAP is just a "flying club" for only a few!

In the USAF, a flight suit is considered the day-uniform for members who are current and former aircrew.  The issue with the flight suit is that it is the least "distinctive" of the work-uniform choices, and thus NHQ's reticence about members wearing it outside of flight duties.

It is also the "lazy-man's uniform and looks like crap.  Thus, it should only be worn when flying.

I have no beef with you personally, Eclipse, but please understand the difference between asserting facts and asserting perceptions.

The "crap" comment is a perception...and yours are no more wrong or right than another's perception (which mine happens to be that they are not appearing like "crap.")

Let's teach and mentor based off of facts and not perceptions - this is true for us all (me also.)

(This lil nugget 'o goodness is a fundamental teaching to those that wish to improve their interpersonal communications.  College stuff.)