Minimum Equipment vs. Uniform

[KyCAP]

I've searched through the threads and can't see where this has been discussed.  So, if it has, please point me to them.

So, by some state laws Civil Air Patrol could apply for "Rescue Squad" status in order to receive grant funding.   Specifically for SAR efforts, not anything related to your general "extrication" type of rescue squad of course.

However, in order to qualify, there are state laws that apply to the "minimum equipment list".   In those cases where a "helmet" is required what do other wings do?  Has that been considered?  As a pilot you default to the "stricter" rules between FAA and CAP regs to stay out of the grist mill.   

[lordmonar]

Where in CAP rules does it say helmets are not allowed?

If it is SAR equipment then you can use it.

And the flames begin. 

[Eclipse]

If the Wing is going to receive Grant funding, the Wing CC is likely be involved in the negotiations, including any additional equipment requirements.

Wing CC's are well within their authority to submit uniform supplements to NHQ, and if the cover letter includes "So and So, is going to give us $!!!!!! as long as we wear helmets", I don't see why it would be a problem.

Assuming it's capability-changing money, (i.e. the members who have to wear the helmets will actually see some direct benefit), then the rank-and-file would be silly to make an issue of it.

If its a few grand that funds some vehicle fuel and a few radios, but results in every GTM in the wing having to spend $100 on a helmet just to keep playing, that's a different story.

[Rob Sherlin]

 I often think about that too. Not only for SAR, but mainly for Disaster Relief situations where you might be subject to falling debris. Maybe not the Kevlar helmets, but "Hard Hats" would make sence in certain situations

[Eclipse]

I often think about that too. Not only for SAR, but mainly for Disaster Relief situations where you might be subject to falling debris. Maybe not the Kevlar helmets, but "Hard Hats" would make sense in certain situations

I've got one in my gear, there are occasions in disaster areas, or even near construction sites, when you can't enter an area without a hard hat.

If an active ELT is inside a hanger that's under construction or had the roof cave in from the big storm, you might have to leave it active if you don't have a hard hat.

[Rob Sherlin]

 But, reg. says........ (just kiddin')....GOOD THINKIN'

[RiverAux]

If needed to get a grant, I bet minor adjustments could be officially made and approved in various CAP regulations in a state.  Depending on how radical the changes would have to be, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that.

[DNall]

Isn't a white hard hat with ES sticker authorized as ES gear? Personally I have a black protech, but I've never had a cause to use it. I also have hard hat in my truck from when I used to do real estate development.

[Eclipse]

The only thing I could find was a reference to a helmet liner when approved by Wing or Region...

[KyCAP]

I hate it when I start a thread and can't get back to it while it's cooking along.. So, I think that you all are thinking on the lines of the "post" funding requirements. 

However, my question also covers.. OK, what if we "don't" get the funding.   By the nature of our activities we are a SAR "rescue" squad.   So, in Ky there is a minimum equipment list for a "rescue squad" with specific language for that of a "SAR" squad.    Things like generators, back boards, radios, and "helmets". 

So, the question that I am wrestling with is if our state law says 'gotta have it'  if you are a rescue squad and some one has a head injury then would this be a liability... armchair lawyers.. Go!!

[Eclipse]

I don't agree we're a rescue squad.

Can you post KY's definition for discussion?

[KyCAP]

The whole thing is here: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/kar/106/001/350.htm 

But this is the section that we definitely fall into as part of our mission as CAP.

Section 8. The minimum equipment for search and rescue squad specializing in a search for lost, trapped or missing persons shall be:
      (1) New or replacement equipment:
      (a) One (1) vehicle dedicated to search and rescue;
      (b) One (1) minimum of two and five-tenths (2.5) KVA portable generator with lights;
      (c) One (1) mobile radio with antenna;
      (d) One (1) basket litter;
      (e) Laminated topographical maps of response area, 1:24000;
      (f) Twelve (12) two (2) way portable (hand-held) radios;
      (g) One (1) first aid kit, twenty-four (24) unit industrial type or equivalent; and
      (h) Twelve (12) rescue helmets with headlamps.
      (2) Replacement equipment only: none.

[Eclipse]

We don't specialize "in a search for lost, trapped or missing persons".

[RiverAux]

I've got a strong suspicion that somewhere buried in KY law is something that indicates that this does not apply to CAP.  Since KY is getting tens of thousands of dollars in state funding it seems unlikely that this would be going on if CAP were failing to meet a mandate that applies to them.

However, in this case I think your inquiry is probably best directed to the KY Wing Legal Officer as it isn't something we're going to be able to answer here.

[KyCAP]

River Aux:

I wouldn't bet the house on it..



Have any other wings had this consideration that when operating in local jurisdictions where more stringent safety requirements exist than our regs?     Our Wing ES Officer and I are reviewing this closely since we are both ICs this is something that we've started to examine.

Eclispse - If you look at the rest of the definitions then you will see that it is for categorization purposes and while none are laser precise that definition is the "core" of what CAP does.  We are looking for "missing persons" in a "missing aircraft".  If the plane was just missing then CAP wouldn't be involved.

[RiverAux]

Though certainly not definitive, there is this reference in that Code to CAP that exempts them from being considered "specialized rescue squads". 

39F.010 Definitions for chapter.

(9) "Specialized rescue squad" means a rescue squad which performs one (1) or more of the following functions as the primary or sole mission of the organization:
(a) Cave rescue;
(b) Search utilizing dogs for lost, trapped or missing persons;
(c) Search for lost, trapped or missing persons, aircraft, or vehicles, utilizing aircraft, but does not apply to licensed air ambulances, active or reserve military organizations, the National Guard, or the Civil Air Patrol; and

[KyCAP]

RiverAux:

Interestingly, we were just reading the same section of the KRS..   So, the perspective that we are trying to sort out... The langauge does construct that CAP is not a "specialized rescue squad" because of our access to AVIATION assets which is what that was shaping.

Then we would refer to what is a "general rescue squad":

(5) "Rescue squad" means any organization which engages in the search for lost persons, rescue of persons, rescue of persons who are trapped or who are in need of rescue services, search for and recovery of drowned persons, or any other rescue related activity. "Rescue squad" shall not include the rescue of persons from a fire by a fire department, the extrication of persons from a vehicle or other activities which an emergency medical technician, emergency medical technician first responder, or paramedic is authorized to perform pursuant to applicable statutes and administrative regulations, if the activities are performed by a person for an ambulance service or in the role of a first responder. If these activities are performed other than as a first responder or in the role of an ambulance service and are involved in rescue operations, they come within the purview of activities of a rescue squad.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/039F00/CHAPTER.HTM

[Climbnsink]

FYI in a closet at CAP I saw a bunch of white construction type hardhats with CAP stickers on the front.  No idea how old or if they were ever used for anything.

[RiverAux]

I had thought of that as well.  However, I would still recommend consulting the wing legal officer about it rather than trying to piece it out yourself (unless you happen to be a lawyer in KY). 

But, on the plus side if they want to consider CAP a rescue squad, according to other parts of the law it looks like you have an option of trying to set up a tax district to support your operations. 

Quite frankly, I'm almost shocked that anyone made a state law so specific about the exact equipment requirements of such groups.  Such things are better left to the discretion of a state agency that can more quickly adapt to equipment innovations. 

[teesquared]

FYI in a closet at CAP I saw a bunch of white construction type hardhats with CAP stickers on the front.  No idea how old or if they were ever used for anything.

On the Vanguard (admittedly not the latest word on uniform regulations) site they have an Emergency Services decal, the description for which is:

CAP0830A
EMERGENCY SERVICES DECAL For wear on protective helmets by personnel participating in emergency services missions

Apparently somebody must have used hard hats at one time or another.

[Eclipse]

FYI in a closet at CAP I saw a bunch of white construction type hardhats with CAP stickers on the front.  No idea how old or if they were ever used for anything.

On the Vanguard (admittedly not the latest word on uniform regulations) site they have an Emergency Services decal, the description for which is:

CAP0830A
EMERGENCY SERVICES DECAL For wear on protective helmets by personnel participating in emergency services missions

That's likely aimed at the helmet liners which can be approved by a Wing or Region CC.

[Gunner C]

FYI in a closet at CAP I saw a bunch of white construction type hardhats with CAP stickers on the front.  No idea how old or if they were ever used for anything.

On the Vanguard (admittedly not the latest word on uniform regulations) site they have an Emergency Services decal, the description for which is:

CAP0830A
EMERGENCY SERVICES DECAL For wear on protective helmets by personnel participating in emergency services missions

That's likely aimed at the helmet liners which can be approved by a Wing or Region CC.

I'm pretty sure the CAP Bookstore catalog said the same thing when I was a cadet, when the use of helmet liners was kinda common.  It is probably a hold-over from those days and Vanguard is too lazy to change it - just did a copy and paste.

Gunner

[teesquared]

 
Vanguard? Lazy? Say it ain't so, Joe!

[RiverAux]

If you're going to start wearing protective helmets in the field (unnecessary in my opinion), please remember that those helmets should have on their inside an expiration date after which they should not be worn due to deterioration.   We just received a briefing on this at my workplace and pretty much all of our helmets need to be tossed or if there was an accident and OSHA found an "expired" helmet had been used, trouble would ensue.....

[JayT]

I had thought of that as well.  However, I would still recommend consulting the wing legal officer about it rather than trying to piece it out yourself (unless you happen to be a lawyer in KY). 

But, on the plus side if they want to consider CAP a rescue squad, according to other parts of the law it looks like you have an option of trying to set up a tax district to support your operations. 

Quite frankly, I'm almost shocked that anyone made a state law so specific about the exact equipment requirements of such groups.  Such things are better left to the discretion of a state agency that can more quickly adapt to equipment innovations. 

This is a classic case of CAP saying "We don't wanna follow the rules other people set!"

From what I remember from the history of the ICS which so many CAP types seem to worship lately, the whole idea was standardization.

If a Incident Commander needed twenty Type Two strike teams, he would bet getting twenty units of similar capacity, which similar training, equipment load outs, etc etc.

In this case, for CAP to be considered a "Rescue Team" under the law, they need to bring that same idea into play (The ICS actually having a place in the real world? Surely you jest!)

So I see nothing wrong with a state mandating it's teams have a certain load out.
If CAP can bring assests to the field equal or better then other teams out there, then we shouldn't even be playing.

[RiverAux]

This is a classic case of CAP saying "We don't wanna follow the rules other people set!"

Where did that come from?   If it is the law, fine CAP should follow it.  However, there is a slight indication that the law was written so as to not to apply to CAP.  I'm certainly not positive of that, which is why I recommended that they consult the Wing Legal Officer for their analysis. 

[JayT]

But why should we be trying to find loopholes out of a good idea?

[RiverAux]

Well, if they wrote the law and specifically exempted CAP from it, then they must have had their reasons.  If they didn't exempt CAP, then we should follow it as best we can. 

However, you should realize that it is not necessarily a good thing if each state starts putting their own specific requirements for SAR teams into law since CAP is a NATIONAL organization and we could end up in a situation where teams from one wing cannot operate in another wing.  The KY law is actually working against the national standardization of team capabilities envisioned under the NIMS system by setting themselves apart. 

In this case, if the KY law does apply to CAP, then it is extremely unlikely that any CAP ground teams from outside KY could ever assist KY Wing in a mission.  How is that a good thing either for CAP, the SAR community, or the Kentuckian lost out in the woods?

[KyCAP]

CAPT Morgan (found here in dark corners) and myself gave a two hour one on one brief to the Adjutant General of Ky per the Wing Commander's request on Friday.

We have another tentative meeting setup for early January with the Brigadier General who is the EM Director for Ky.   We will probably address this issue with him at that time.

The law is written to identify that CAP and other assets in Ky are not "specialized" resources, but it is open that we are "generalized" rescue resources. 

As to the "national" resources statement, I have not had time to research other state's laws that apply to rescue resources in the rest of the US.  The assumption could also be made that the Emergency Managers have "standardized" the load out for "rescue" assets in ALL state laws with the expectations to standardize all resources.   There is such a thing as the EMAC where the whole purpose is standarized interoperability of resources between state agencies.   It's ran from KY and one of my friends is the EMAC manager..

http://www.emacweb.org/?9

It could be that we are "unintentionally" unaware of the far reaching implications of ICS resource typing requirements??

[RiverAux]

Thats some good face time. 

I know that my state has no such similar requirements either in state law or in other policy and I'd be surprised if there were many states out there that have anything as detailed in KY in their laws as far as equipment. 

I haven't seen anything detailed in any of the national NIMS stuff as detailed as this about equipment, but would expect it to be coming at some point. 

[KyCAP]

Yes, GOOD face time..  Nice guy to boot with real interest in CAP... Doesn't hurt he's an AIR FORCE Officer...   

I did some homework.  With NIMS typing docs, The Cave Rescue specifies helmets, but the rest go with "personal protection equipment adequate".     I picked a few states like Oregon and New York state laws.   They "refer" to equipment lists in the their regulatory statutes, but interpreting the "where they are" on their web sites is impossible.   

[rgr84]

Check out paragraph (9)

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/039f00/010.pdf

Search for lost, trapped or missing persons, aircraft, or vehicles, utilizing aircraft, but does not apply to licensed air ambulances, active or reserve military organizations, the National Guard, or the Civil Air Patrol;

[RiverAux]

yeah, we mentioned it before -- that exempts CAP from being considered a specialized rescue squad -- the question remains whether CAP ground teams would be considered a general rescue squad and thereby subject to those laws.  I haven't found an obvious exception for CAP in that which means they either meant for CAP ground teams to be covered or forgot that we had them.   

[KyCAP]

Yep, agreed.  It looks to peel back only one layer.