SPOT transmitter saves 2 CAWG members

[calguy]

California was activated this morning for two lost CAP members in the California desert near the Colorado River.  A California Group 7 aircraft was able to locate the two hikers within minutes of arriving in their CAP aircraft after the SPOT transmitter was able to provide their Lat/long.  Still waiting for additional details on their condiion. 

[_]

Do we know yet if they were lost people who happened to be members of CAP or they were acting in some CAP capacity and became lost?

[KyCAP]

Currently, does the SPOT manufacturer send alerts to AFRCC or did the mission come from the CA Emergency Management to CAP?   Glad it worked for those folks!  Just trying to see what the tasking workflow looks like.. if anyone knows here.

[isuhawkeye]

My understanding is that SPOT does not transmit information directly to AFRCC

[calguy]

The two CAWG staff members were out in the desert 4 wheeling when they failed to return home.  They sent an emergency spot message and the mission was opened.  The pages don't show it was an AFRCC mission but a State mission.  I will go into WMIRS and see if I can find more details.  The story seems that they either were stuck, lost or crashed.

[sardak]

Alerts from the "911" button on a SPOT beacon go to the GEOS International Emergency Response Center in Houston, TX.  The personnel there notify the closest PSAP (public safety access point, e.g 911 in the US) to the GPS coordinates.  The PSAP follows its procedures.  The response center also contacts the emergency contacts listed with SPOT registration.

The alerting and initial response processes for SPOT beacons and Sarsat alerts are completely different.

Mike

[notaNCO forever]

 Talk about a horrible place to get lost when I lived their it good get up to 120 F during the day. It's a good thing they had the SPOT transmitter.

[DNall]

I just wanted to mention we used those during the Ike mission. Had a couple dozen. Sent each GT & aircrew out with one. Then had a laptop in ground ops and another in air that showed their teams. There was still some technical issues, but it was pretty close to a blue force tracker concept. I liked it a lot, especially when we lost comms because a highbird was changing shifts or the team was way out.

[wingnut55]

Ok lets get this story straight NONE OF THIS IS TRUE

The guy was with his wife exploring the desert, he was never LOST, He never used the 911 button on his spot. This is just an example of how "SPOT" will be as bad as false ELTs. A friend was ill informed about this guy out in the desert and when he did not return the guy  called in a missing person and the ball started. So the guy is with his wife and they are camping and a CAP ground team shows up at 5am. The guy was never missing, nor lost. The friend was following this CAP members GPS data log at the SPOT website, when he stopped moving (BECAUSE HE WAS CAMPING) the friend assumed something had happened.

Spot allows friends and family to follow the spot GPS, when his friend saw that he was not moving

this friend panicked because his friend did not tell him he was spending the night and called the sheriff, and a Mission was called.

What an embarrassment, I can guess what the Sanbernardino Sherriff Department thinks of us.

so now everyone who has a spot has the potential to have friends, family, making this mistake. And in December SPOT asked the National Search and Rescue Committee to take over spots emergency 911 operation. This our worst nightmare. Imagine people who fall in the house will be dialing SPOT 911, loose their Dog 911,

Who ever started this BLOG should have checked the facts before they started a false "SPOT, SAVE. story.
I know the guy who was out in the Desert he has more radio equipment than anyone I know on his truck.



Bob Kirby, Capt.
Grp 1 Operations

[isuhawkeye]

If you read the contract, SPOT when they run your credit card reserves the right to bill for services. 

In this case it does not sound like GEOS was involved in the "Rescue"

The onus will continue to be on the AHJ to filter out rescue requests before they pull the trigger on full scale searches. 

I dont see this incident as anyone's worst nightmare.

Afterall currently over 90% of ELT misssions are false alarms.  CAP should be used to wild goose chases

[EMT-83]

It sounds to me like the friend would have panicked, whether there was a SPOT radio involved or not. His buddy was known to be in the desert, and was considered overdue.

Had there been no SPOT radio, a massive search would have probably been launched. Instead, a smaller response was initiated and the parties located quickly. I fail to see where anyone has any reason to be embarrassed.

[DNall]

So regardless of the human factors involved this time out, SPOT = pretty cool tool. If you read my post above on CAP using it in a major mission as poor man's blue force tracker, I think you'd have to agree from a branch director/IC perspective, that's a nice bonus.

[MikeD]

I just wanted to mention we used those during the Ike mission. Had a couple dozen. Sent each GT & aircrew out with one. Then had a laptop in ground ops and another in air that showed their teams. There was still some technical issues, but it was pretty close to a blue force tracker concept. I liked it a lot, especially when we lost comms because a highbird was changing shifts or the team was way out.

SWEEET!!!  I've been talking about doing stuff like that for a couple of months now.  What mapping software did you use?
I vote that the next step is to get an air-base data link so flight crews can know where everyone is.

[DNall]

I have no idea... It got set up at my station for me. It was logged into the company's website & did everything for you. I just watched the thing. You'll have to talk to one of our IT guys for any more detail then that.

[isuhawkeye]

Spot integrates with google maps.

you can follow my SPOT travels here
https://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=1RWbzRqgr7zAS96mFan27OhTqIy60qkyJ

The Password is my screen name

[isuhawkeye]

Just to explain the system. 

THe beacon reports my position every 10 minutes.  On this day I drove from des moines to Ames.  I rented a 172, and flew up around story city, and then west to the des moines river, then back to Nevada, and finally back to Ames.  the SPOT reported my positions along the way

[DNall]

Just to explain the system. 

THe beacon reports my position every 10 minutes.  On this day I drove from des moines to Ames.  I rented a 172, and flew up around story city, and then west to the des moines river, then back to Nevada, and finally back to Ames.  the SPOT reported my positions along the way

Exactly. Which from a branch director perspective, is a VERY nice tool to have in the box. Now when I have a missed check-in, I can see within minutes if they're still moving. If they're not, or I have a concern, then I have a fairly accurate LKP. If I want to link up teams (air or ground) then I can give them fairly accurate directions. If a GT is lost, I can give them directions off google maps to get them into where I need them.

Now I would also caution branch directors/ICs here. UAVs and Blue Force Tracker in the military provide similar information to commanders in the military. There have been issues as we've brought those on line with micro-managing operators on the ground. Even if you have the capability, be really careful to avoid that.

When a plane goes missing, we have ELTs and radar track data. When a person goes missing, they MAY have a PLB. SPOT has the potential to provide a parallel to that radar track.

[MikeD]

Just to explain the system. 

THe beacon reports my position every 10 minutes.  On this day I drove from des moines to Ames.  I rented a 172, and flew up around story city, and then west to the des moines river, then back to Nevada, and finally back to Ames.  the SPOT reported my positions along the way

Is that a setting that can be changed?  Could we have data once a minute (ground teams), or even as fast as once a second, or at least once every 10 seconds for aircraft?  The specs in my head had an alarm time for lack of data, and 10 minutes of no data from an aircraft (user selectable but default) would have already set off alarms.

Still, I guess this is far better then what we have.  But no where near as good as something like a Blue Force Tracker system... 

[isuhawkeye]

no, the ten minute time frame is not adjustable, and in my opinion 10 minutes is just fine.

If you checked out my track I didn't get that far in the time frame.  Even in the aircraft going 100kts you certainly have more than enough data if an aircraft misses a 30 minute check in

Also, if for some reason the GPS loses connectivity it will simply wait, and report a position when it gets signal again. 

As with any GPS this happens (on the ground) in ravines, heavy tree cover, or other times that the sky is obscured

I would use this device as a tracker, but I would still rely on 30 minute check ins for status updates.  I wouldn't want to jump the gun like our california friend at the beginning of this post

[wingnut55]

I must admit I really do like the Spots tracker Idea, during the Fossett mission with 10 Airplanes in the Air we had to pop up every 3o minutes to call in, the spot could have saved us valuable time and saved hundreds of dollars in AVGAS daily. Since it uses Global Star CAP should use it because Global Star is the Company we use for SDIS and Archer.

We need to start thinking of Cost Savings, CAP is a Govt. entity part of a Govt. that is Bankrupt. . .  Oh sorry we can print more money!!!

[Eclipse]

^ No highbirds?  Or did the mountains negate their usefulness?

[wingnut55]

HIGHBIRD DOES NOT MEAN "GOOD COMMUNICATIONS ALWAYS"?

ERRATIC COMMUNICATIONS!!!!
THAT INCLUDES HIGH BIRD, HOW HIGH CAN HIGHBIRD BE USED TO COVER AN AREA THE SIZE OF THE FOSSETT MISSION?

14,000 FOOT MOUNTAINS MEANS HIGH, BE IN THE VALLEY AND CLIMB BACK TO 16,000 HOW LONG DOES THAT TAKE??? 30 MINUTES, 20 MINUTES?? AND THEN GO BACK DOWN.

But if you live in Florida I apologize

The Spot can and should be used by CAP

[isuhawkeye]

no need to get upset. 

I think most of us are supporters of the Spot technology

[wingnut55]

Sorry I hit send before I edited

[bosshawk]

This is all very interesting, but there are some of us dummies who have no idea what a Spot is.  How about a lead for those of us less fortunate than some of you guys.

[EMT-83]

www.findmespot.com

[RiverAux]

At $150/year for basic + tracking services per device (which may not include the actual cost of the device itself), I'm not entirely sure it is worth it for CAP purposes.  It would eat up most of our annual training budget at the wing level to outfit all the planes and ground teams with it.  Having 10-minute locations of our teams and planes would be nice, but isn't a critical need. 

[isuhawkeye]

Here are a few notes, thoughts, and observations on the SPOT

http://isuhawkeye.typepad.com/halbrook_associatescom/2008/09/the-spot-rescue.html

http://isuhawkeye.typepad.com/halbrook_associatescom/2008/06/sopt-at-eaas-ai.html

http://isuhawkeye.typepad.com/halbrook_associatescom/2008/05/spot-track.html

http://isuhawkeye.typepad.com/halbrook_associatescom/2008/05/spot-rescue-bea.html

http://isuhawkeye.typepad.com/halbrook_associatescom/2008/04/spot-e-mail-ale.html

http://isuhawkeye.typepad.com/halbrook_associatescom/2008/04/spot-recieved.html

http://isuhawkeye.typepad.com/halbrook_associatescom/2007/12/the-spot.html

[wingnut55]

I started to Order a Spot tonight but when I went to my REI web site here are the bad reviews.

I have tried to use this product on about a dozen occasions over the last several months principally on the Olympic Penninsula at hiking trailheads and hiking destinations. Except for at my home in Poulsbo, I have only been successful in sending/receiving check-in messages less than half the time. In all trials I was able to get the function and power lights blinking in unison within a couple of minutes or less. However, to get them to turn solid green may take 15 minutes if at all. The "solid green for 5 seconds" indicator is a poor feature requiring the user to focus on the transmitter so as not to miss this signal; a solid light after sending or a different color would free up the user. Those few messages which were received showed accurate locations. One had better get injured on top of a peak with a clear view of the sky if they hope for help from this product.

[wingnut55]

Another Customer review

As we had agreed, I would send a morning and evening "OK". I tested from home and it worked fine. I sent the next "OK" from Fresno on the way up and then every evening and morning until the last one from the parking lot on the way out. When I got back into cell phone range, I called and got an ear-full!My girlfriend was in a panic. It turns out that she received the 1st "OK" from Fresno and then nothing until the last one from the parking lot 3 days later!

Again, another.
My first tests of the unit, in Wisconsin, were perfect. For the first three days of my ride, my unit worked perfectly. But from Central Mexico to Argentina, it was completely unreliable. Less than 50% of tracks and OK messages went through in Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Chile, and Argentina. When I contacted SPOT customer service, they said my unit was defective... but how could I send it back, from Central America? When I returned from my trip, I tested it again, and in Wisconsin, it worked perfectly. It's impossible to know, from the field, if the tracking and OK messages actually go through.

The biggest problems are poor statelite reception; an inability to know, from the field, if your messages are going through; poor battery life; hard-to-push buttons; ignorant customer service; a poorly designed website; and ambiguity regarding post-subscription 911 transmittal. The belt-clip is some kind of bad joke. There are so many loopholes in the "extraction insurance" that it's worthless.

[wingnut55]

And Some more

This product gives people a false sense of security. I am a professional guide and one of my clients asked me to take this with me on trips this summer to see if and where it would work.

Several of the trips were canoe based and on several other occasions with sat phones and gps units I simply got on the lake in the canoe and everything worked, this unit didn't. On several occasions, there was no receipt of the broadcast, although it said it did.

The unit does come on accidentally unless it is in a hard case, by itself.

While I truly like the idea, I am afraid that it is just going to give people a false sense of security.

[wingnut55]

A more interesting

I have tried to use this product on about a dozen occasions over the last several months principally on the Olympic Peninsula at hiking trail heads and hiking destinations. Except for at my home in Poulsbo, I have only been successful in sending/receiving check-in messages less than half the time. In all trials I was able to get the function and power lights blinking in unison within a couple of minutes or less. However, to get them to turn solid green may take 15 minutes if at all. The "solid green for 5 seconds" indicator is a poor feature requiring the user to focus on the transmitter so as not to miss this signal; a solid light after sending or a different color would free up the user. Those few messages which were received showed accurate locations. One had better get injured on top of a peak with a clear view of the sky if they hope for help from this product.

[DNall]

At $150/year for basic + tracking services per device (which may not include the actual cost of the device itself), I'm not entirely sure it is worth it for CAP purposes.  It would eat up most of our annual training budget at the wing level to outfit all the planes and ground teams with it.  Having 10-minute locations of our teams and planes would be nice, but isn't a critical need. 

I don't know that we actually paid anything. Our wing ICP kit has about a dozen cell phones with free air time via the provider, now it has a fully field ready sat internet system courtesy of FEMA w/ I believe free service at least for the next year... I think the 20 or so SPOTs we had were the same kind of thing. They were all numbered & linked up on the same acct. I haven't been on another major mission since then, so I don't know if it was maybe just for the Hurricane, but I don't think think so.

Obviously this doesn't preclude check-ins. You could probably push to 1hr check-ins instead of every 30mins though. This is a backup when comms don't work, and a command and control tool so I can manage my forces in the field. It works fine for that. I like it.

Now, I don't know how it functions in other terrain. I would expect the same as any other GPS, but I don't know. I've only seen it in our nice flat coastal plain, and it worked great. If that's not the case elsewhere, then maybe this particular technology is not quite ready for prime time for this particular use by CAP. Even if that's the case, I certainly think it's a good look at the future for us.

And I don't know about message functions. I never saw or used any of that. I wouldn't be counting on that. Certainly not to replace radio check-ins.

[bosshawk]

EMT-83: thanks for the info.  With all of the user comments, it appears that I would be wasting my time even pursuing learning about the thing.  I will look, because we have folks in the Sierra Nevadas who I am sure will use the thing and we will get to go look for them, although we rarely go looking for hikers or bikers.

From the post that started this whole thing, it appears to work well in the flat lands of the California deserts.  Not too many folks plant their flying machines in that terrain, although I have searched for a couple over the years.

[RiverAux]

No matter what is going on now, this is obviously a technology that will probably be ready for prime-time probably within 5 years or less.