Suggestions For An Updated CAPP 151

Started by MIKE, January 11, 2006, 01:03:17 AM

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MIKE

I think CAPP 151 STANDARDS, CUSTOMS AND COURTESIES is due for a revision.

Some suggested changes:

Change the publication type from a pamphlet to a manual or regulation. CAPR 5-4 states that pamphlets are "nondirective informative type publications."  IMO a change to a manual or regulation would be appropriate given the content of this publication.

Address the issue of rendering military courtesies while in the CAP Distinctive uniform combinations.  Should one behave as one does while in military-style uniform, or that of someone in civilian clothes.  Possibly change some references to military-style uniform to Air Force-style uniform to distinguish between CAP Distinctive and the Air Force-style uniforms.

Add: Titles of address for CAP flight officers & senior members without grade

Senior Flight Officer - Flight Officer
Technical Flight Officer - Flight Officer
Flight Officer - Flight Officer
Senior Member - Senior Member

I think senior members without grade should be addressed as "Mister" or "Miss" instead of "Sir" or "Ma'am."  Not sure about flight officers also, but IIRC "Mister" or "Miss" is an appropriate term of address for Army warrant officers.

Update: Title of address for Cadet Civil Air Patrol Members

Cadet Colonel - Colonel
Cadet  Lieutenant Colonel - Colonel
Cadet Major - Major
Cadet Captain - Captain
Cadet First Lieutenant - Lieutenant
Cadet Second Lieutenant - Lieutenant
Cadet Chief Master Sergeant -  Chief Master Sergeant or Chief
Cadet Senior Master Sergeant - Senior Master Sergent or Sergeant
Cadet Master Sergeant - Master Sergeant or Sergeant
Cadet Technical Sergeant - Technical Sergeant or Sergeant
Cadet Staff Sergeant - Staff Sergeant or Sergeant
Cadet Senior Airman -Senior Airman or Airman
Cadet Airman First Class - Airman First Class or Airman
Cadet Airman - Airman
Cadet Airman Basic - Airman

Comments or suggestions for some additional changes/updates?
Mike Johnston

SarDragon

I will list only those items for which I have comment.

Quote from: MIKE on January 11, 2006, 01:03:17 AM
Address the issue of rendering military courtesies while in the CAP Distinctive uniform combinations.  Should one behave as one does while in military-style uniform, or that of someone in civilian clothes.  Possibly change some references to military-style uniform to Air Force-style uniform to distinguish between CAP Distinctive and the Air Force-style uniforms.

The Air Force considers the corporate uniform as civilian clothing. Until that changes, the military courtesies probably won't change. Also, since corporate uniforms are essentially hatless, saluting become a point of confusion, since the basic rule is "No hat, no salute". I would support a change, however. YMMV.

Quote from: MIKE on January 11, 2006, 01:03:17 AM
Add: Titles of address for CAP flight officers & senior members without grade

Senior Flight Officer - Flight Officer
Technical Flight Officer - Flight Officer
Flight Officer - Flight Officer
Senior Member - Senior Member

Senior Flight Officer - Flight Officer or Mister/Ms
Technical Flight Officer - Flight Officer or Mister/Ms
Flight Officer - Flight Officer or Mister/Ms
Senior Member - Senior Member or Mister/Ms

Quote from: MIKE on January 11, 2006, 01:03:17 AMI think senior members without grade should be addressed as "Mister" or "Miss" instead of "Sir" or "Ma'am."  Not sure about flight officers also, but IIRC "Mister" or "Miss/Ms" is an appropriate term of address for Army warrant officers.

"Sir" or "Ma'am" are appropriate forms of address for all senior members, as in "Yes, sir" or no, ma'am".

"Mister" or "Miss" are used to preface someone's name as in "Mister Jones", similar to "Lieutenant Smith", and are equally appropriate in that context.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

MIKE

Quote from: SarDragon on January 11, 2006, 03:14:23 AM
Quote from: MIKE on January 11, 2006, 01:03:17 AM
Address the issue of rendering military courtesies while in the CAP Distinctive uniform combinations.  Should one behave as one does while in military-style uniform, or that of someone in civilian clothes.  Possibly change some references to military-style uniform to Air Force-style uniform to distinguish between CAP Distinctive and the Air Force-style uniforms.

The Air Force considers the corporate uniform as civilian clothing. Until that changes, the military courtesies probably won't change. Also, since corporate uniforms are essentially hatless, saluting become a point of confusion, since the basic rule is "No hat, no salute". I would support a change, however. YMMV.

Maybe this is an isolated issue.  From my experience here in MAWG, there is a tendency to render the same courtesies regardless of the uniform or lack thereof... Seems this is done in an attempt to blur the distinction between the uniform types, so not to hurt someones feelings. 
Mike Johnston

Eclipse

#3
Removed by eclipse...

"That Others May Zoom"

captrncap

I would look a military style uniform from the cadet's perspective with regard to US Military not CAP. For a cadet not to salute a commissioned officer in the US Military would be incorrect. How would they know that someone not a wearing a military style uniform should also be saluted? For CAP, cadets are required to salute a person of higher grade regardless of what uniform they were.

As for SM, they should be saluted and referred to a Sir or Ma'am by cadets. They are senior to cadets and should be given the same courtesies.


SarDragon

#5
I disagree. Officers should be saluted. Those who are not should not be saluted. A SMWOG, is, by definition, not an officer.

As for the military-style uniform, I maintain that that refers to USAF, USA, USN, USMC, USCG, etc. uniforms. Corporate uniforms do not fit into that category. Somewhere in the knowledgebase is discussion of that uniform being considered civilian clothing, but I'll let you find it. It it were a military uniform, we would be able to wear military ribbons on it.

Given all that, do I like it? No. Would i like to see it changed? I'm not sure. I still haven't weighed all the pros and cons.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Pace

Quote from: Eclipse on January 11, 2006, 04:32:59 AM
There is no distintction with regards to courtesies in the CAP distinctive uniform. 

A CAP Colonel is a CAP Colonel.  If you owe her a salute, throw it.

It should be noted that courtesies can and in most cases should be rendered even in
civilian dress if you are aware of a member's grade.

I don't feel like looking it up, but I'm sure someone will take exception to this, and I'll have to.  I know its in writing...

>>>> SCAN CAP KB <<<<

OK, I temporarily retract the above, but I know I have seen it somewhere.
You're looking in the wrong place.  Try AFMAN 36-2203 USAF Drill and Ceremonies:
Quote from: AFMAN 36-2203
3.6.1 Outdoors, salutes are exchanged upon recognition between officers and warrant officers and
between officers or warrant officers and cadets or enlisted members of the Armed Forces.
Lt Col, CAP

Eclipse

Isn't there somewhere in there re: saluting when recgonizing a superior even if one
or both are in civiies?

"That Others May Zoom"

Pace

I didn't see it in there, but now that you've got me to thinking, I seem to remember something along those lines.  It may not have been written that way word for word.  I may have interpreted as "one of you needs to be in uniform" from a combination of sources.  But my knowledge of saluting is blurred since I'm running off "the way we do it in [insert USAF, AFROTC, CAP, or AFJROTC]" and my poor memory from when I did have these different official sources memorized.  Unfortunately, I don't have time to look it up right now.
Lt Col, CAP

MIKE

#9
Capt  Williams or a mod, please edit the Knowledge base link in your post above... You are breaking the board.

Here is how you fix it:

[url=http://{Insert hellalong URL here.}]Enter a short title for your hellalong URL here.[/url]

Edit: Thank you.  You didn't have to nuke the whole post though.
Mike Johnston

SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on January 11, 2006, 04:37:59 PM
Isn't there somewhere in there re: saluting when recgonizing a superior even if one or both are in civiies?

Yes, there is. The issue here seems to be the requirement to salute, not optional situations. I salute whenever I consider it appropriate, regardless of what I and the other officer are wearing. But, since I wear only corporate uniforms, I am never required to salute.

BTW, my wing CC wears corporate almost exclusively and I have rarely seen salutes exchanged except in a formal presentation setting. It all goes back to the concept, "No hat, no salute."
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

RF273

I recently asked CAP Knowledgebase:

When in CAP distinctive uniforms (specifically the aviator shirt combo, blue BDUs, blue utility uniform and the CAP/blue flight suit (everything but the golf shirt and blazer combo,)) are the standard military customs and courtesies followed such as saluting?

And got the following answer:

Basically saluting is required when wearing the military style uniform but not the CAP distinctive uniforms where the hat is optional.  However, many members do salute while wearing the CAP distinctive uniform which is certainly acceptable if done properly. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual.



So in my unit, as we have a number of senior members who wear both Air Force-style and CAP uniforms (I guess depending on mood, what is clean, etc. - or maybe it is that we are a bunch of clothes-horses!), we apply proper military C&C no matter what uniform is being worn (with the exception of the golf-shirt combo.)

Eclipse

I said similiar above, and IMHO this is the best solution - a bird is a bird, etc.

Why would / should we put ourselves in the position of filtering courtesies because
of the color of his shirt.  This is similiar to most RDC's up at Great Lakes insisting that
their recruits salute us, because yo don't want a slick-sleeve filtering himself into the brig because he doesn't recognize the uniform.  Up there as well, on the NTC side there is foreign military housing and some of the uniforms these guys wear make ours loook sedate.

Now, if we're talking about someone you don't know, wearing a gold shirt, then there would be no expectation of a salute, but a "Morning, Sir" isn't going to kill anybody.

"That Others May Zoom"

flyguy06

Ok, so here is my question, and of course I would never do this because I am in the military and I understand customs and curteousies. But You all talk about whats required and whats optional. Some CAP members believe everything in CAP is optional. I am curious what you would do if you ran across a Senior Member that you out ranked and he did not salute you.  In the military that person would get written up. Possibly exta duty and some pay taken. Like I said, I would never do that, but I know some members that would.

shorning

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 12, 2006, 06:18:53 PM
Ok, so here is my question, and of course I would never do this because I am in the military and I understand customs and curteousies. But You all talk about whats required and whats optional. Some CAP members believe everything in CAP is optional. I am curious what you would do if you ran across a Senior Member that you out ranked and he did not salute you.  In the military that person would get written up. Possibly exta duty and some pay taken. Like I said, I would never do that, but I know some members that would.

I don't know what service you are in, but in the AF, I doubt they'd be written up, get extra duty, or loose pay.  He'd probably get corrected on the spot, and it if was a severe enough situation, he'd probably get and LOC/LOR.  Other services might handle it differently.

As for CAP, there have been many a time where someone junior to me didn't salute me...both cadets and seniors.  Usually, I don't make an issue of it.  Some situations (like an encampment) are different.  Even at a regular squadron meeting, I will let the cadet leadership correct the error.  Sure I can fix the problem, but then I'm not really training the cadet officers or NCOs to do their jobs.

Okay, maybe I've been around CAP long enough that I can afford not to worry about it.  But then again, the saying goes something like, "The superior should never think of the grade difference, but the subordinate should never forget it".  Just a tidbit I remember from my cadet day.


(Man, I'd really like to get a copy of the 1982-era Lead Lab!   ;D)

SarDragon

Quote from: shorning on January 12, 2006, 06:41:06 PM(Man, I'd really like to get a copy of the 1982-era Lead Lab!   ;D)

How about CAPM 50-3, The Leadership Laboratory Manual, 2nd Ed. 1967? Page 25- "The senior will never think of the difference in grade; the junior will never forget it".
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

shorning

Quote from: SarDragon on January 12, 2006, 08:09:10 PM
Quote from: shorning on January 12, 2006, 06:41:06 PM(Man, I'd really like to get a copy of the 1982-era Lead Lab!   ;D)

How about CAPM 50-3, The Leadership Laboratory Manual, 2nd Ed. 1967? Page 25- "The senior will never think of the difference in grade; the junior will never forget it".

Better!  That's the phrase I remember out of my first Lead Lab.  Now...if I only could find a hard copy... ;)  Come to think of it...I think mine had an "older" date on it.  I know there were a number of years that those things didn't get updated.  I wonder if it's the same.  I guess I'd have to know the revision dates over time.

SarDragon

What do you need the hard copy for? I have mine here. Do you need a paper copy?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

shorning

Quote from: SarDragon on January 13, 2006, 02:18:08 AM
What do you need the hard copy for? I have mine here. Do you need a paper copy?

Just historical purposes.  Not really that big of a deal.  I wish I had thought about keeping my old stuff when I was a cadet.

SarDragon

I wish I could find all the stuff I thought I kept.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret