what in the world??? US Flag patch

[skandalintegra]

I think i have an idea of why the Flag is reversed on the shoulder but i was wondering if any one knows for sure why we wear a reversed flag instead of a regular flag.

Proper flag etiquette. The stars lead the bars. Since it's on the right shoulder, the bars are in the front (hence, that would make it reversed). On the flight suit, it's on the left shoulder because it's not reversed (hence the stars are on the left again).

Thats a better way to put it..  GySgt Ermey from Mail Call on the History Channel said to think of it as the flag doesn't retreat.  If an infantryman walked with the normal flag on his right arm, it would look like the flag was going backwards, away from the enemy.  So its reversed 

[Five-seveN]

i thought it was more like the Stars would be leading the way as you talk in service of the USA, plus thats how the flag looks when it being' carried.

[skandalintegra]

In that sense, yes that is how it works.  I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining.

[abysmal]

It surprises me to see just how much controversy this new flag policy generated here.
I would have thought this would be a Slam-Dunk no-brainer.
We should have had it years ago.

[Pylon]

It surprises me to see just how much controversy this new flag policy generated here.
I would have thought this would be a Slam-Dunk no-brainer.
We should have had it years ago.

Yeah, I don't care either way.  Sure, it's one more piece we have to add to the bare minimum of our uniforms, but it works. 

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

CAP is always trying to tote that we're "Performing missions for America™"  -- well, wearing the American flag on our shoulders portrays that a bit.  I don't see why not.   I guess I'm indifferent.

If it were optional, I'm not sure if I'd wear it or not; since it's mandatory for wear, I'll go ahead and adopt it without bucking the chain of command.  There's more important things for me to be picking at the chain about, like recruiting/retention and CAP's state of affairs in other similar realms.

[footballrun21]

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

Squadron patches, as well.  They are in the same place as the unit patches for the Air Force, but they are completly different.

[Eclipse]

They're not supposed to be so different, but many units have chosen not to follow the rules of heraldry and their Wing CC's approved in appropriate patches.

The issue of subdued vs. full-color not withstanding, our design should be the same as other branches - disc w/ rockers for units, shields for Groups & other hq componets.

[PhoenixRisen]

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

Squadron patches, as well.  They are in the same place as the unit patches for the Air Force, but they are completly different.

In what way are you referring to unit patches being different? Do you mean they're not the shield type, or they're not subdued? If that's what you're talking about (which is what everyone means when they bring this up) lots of them are, including mine.



If that's not what you were talking about, sorry for my rambling on about this.

[arajca]

In the Air Force, unit patches are a disc with arcs. The arcs contain the unit designation (lower) and unit motto (upper). If the unit has no motto, the upper arc may be left off. Some older unit patches have the arcs reversed, but IIRC, they are slowly being changed to comply with the AF standard. Groups, wings, and higher level use the modified heater shield with an attahced scroll (aka the AF shield) for the shape of their patches.

CAP doesn't follow this standard, but should.

[Mac]

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

Squadron patches, as well.  They are in the same place as the unit patches for the Air Force, but they are completly different.

Actually Squadron patches in the Air Force are not worn in the same location as CAP wears Sq patches. Air Force Members wear their command patch (ACC, AFSC, AFMC, etc.) on the right pocket, and our Wing patch or occupational badge on the left pocket. If your squadron has a patch it is worn 1/2 inch above your name tape, the same place we can wear the ES patch in CAP.

[footballrun21]

I don't get why everone is arguing about CAP and the Air Force not being the same.  Just face it, CAP and USAF do different things, they aren't exactly the same department.

[Eclipse]

Here is a link to the USAF Rules of Heraldry

http://www.usafpatches.com/pubs/afheraldryguide.pdf

As you will see, units should be a disc w/ rockers, not a shield.

Shields are indicated for "Headquarters Components" or "Major Commands".

Though we are not technically bound by these guidelines, for affinity and consistency with our military bretheren, the IL Wing CC indicated (in 2002ish) that existing patches did not need to change, however new insignia designs needed to adhere as closely as possible to the guidelines. Exceptions are made on a limited basis.

Units with existing designs should move to re-shape them to conform for future patch
runs.

Obviously this only holds weight in Iliinois, but the hearldry rules are the same for everyone.

Though it's an interesting idea, I don't think creating subdued insignia for our BDU's is necessary or even appropriate.  The only reason for subdued insignia is to maintain the camo protection which is broken by bright colors.  Since that is a combat issue, it does not apply to CAP.

I've designed two insignia to this point, one approved, one in pending stage.
I've also had input on a number of others.

Illinois Group 22 (approved and in use), and Palwaukee Composite (design approved pending final spec):

(note, one exception here is the Roman numeral in the main field to pay respect to
the fact that PWK has had an active unit since 1942)

[ddelaney103]

Units should really look at some good books on medieval heraldry as well as AF heraldry regs.

Many times people come up with pretty designs that are far too difficult to see when translated into a patch.  I think a few of the examples above illustrate the problem.  When coming up with something that works well on a 3" design viewed at a distance of 5' simplicity and boldness are the keys.

Dan Delaney

[Eclipse]

Getting that eagle rendered correctly is going to be expensive, and we're assuming the Roman letters will nearly blend in at a distance, which was why we didn't agonize over having a number in the main field - we still go back and forth on it and may not incorporate it in the patch.

If you read the rules, you would also see that the Group patch features the state of Illinois, which is a violation of the standard as well.  However there is plenty of historical justification both in CAP and the military for having a state on the flag, especially with Wing patches - most of which don't come close to adhering to any standard.

[ddelaney103]

I think you hit a lot of the important points on those patches.

Contrast is the big factor.  With the Group patch, the AF symbol should be silver, IAW AF Symbol Guidelines (http://www.af.mil/library/symbol/index.asp).  Though the outline is probably legal, from a visual standpoint it's a poor choice.

There's a similar problem with the CAP "Command Patch."  I would have just put the triangle - which is what it will look like on the patch as the border is going to disappear.

I don't think the AF restriction on locations should be applied to CAP, as our units are tied to the location while the AF unit can move from NY to CA over the course of its life.  Putting a white aircraft on a white IL might not be the best choice, though it does show why we put the red stripes on the aircraft. 

I think a good rule of thumb for patches is: can I make a good stencil of it?  My WIWAC Sqdn had one that was all shapes except the number, which meant it made a great stencil.  We used to put it on all the equipment.  I remember seeing it sewn on the back of somebody's field jacket in reflective material.  Mind you, this was a long time ago when the AF would sew reflective material on their field jackets as well.

[footballrun21]

How did we gt on the topic of squadron/group/wing patches when this post was about the American flag patch?

[SarDragon]

How did we gt on the topic of squadron/group/wing patches when this post was about the American flag patch?

Ummm....  maybe here? 

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

Squadron patches, as well.  They are in the same place as the unit patches for the Air Force, but they are completly different.

[footballrun21]

hehe, that was by me too.

[shorning]

hehe, that was by me too.

Glad to see you're paying attention...

[iowacap]

Though I doubt anyone is going to miss them, it was likely an economic decision as there is no logical reason for CAP to be the middleman when all it does is add cost and hassle to NHQ.

Vanuard actually makes a lot of the stuff CAPMart sells, and I am told their ecommerce experience is far superior to that which CAPMart offers today.

As to those that might suggest the Hock as an alternative, though he's got some stuff it's hard to get elsewhere, what he is selling is unlicensed, unapproved stuff.

In many cases the quality is much lower than the "real" stuff from NHQ - this is especially evident in patches and ribbons where there are serious color problems and
long-term wear issues.  The ILWG Wing patch, for example, that the Hock sells show yellow wings, when they are supposed to be gold.  You can see a Hock Wing patch from a mile away.

I dont have any experience with the patches or ribbons but I purchased my blues and BDU from the hock and is very good quality. All of my blues stuff is the same that the AF wears because it has inspected and apporoved by USAF that type of thing and the wear has been very good so I would say for uniform items it has been worth it and that but I did get my flight suit from the deceased capmart and is also very good and quality so either way both are good.