what in the world??? US Flag patch

[whatevah]

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2005_11_wear_of_American_flag.pdf

here's the text of the document...

5 December 2005
MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP UNIT COMMANDERS
FROM: CC
SUBJECT: Change to CAPM 39-1, Wear of the American Flag on BDUs and Field
Uniforms
1. Effective immediately cadet and senior members will wear the reverse American flag
on the right shoulder of the BDU and CAP distinctive field uniform. This 2” X 3” gold
reverse field flag will be worn centered, ½ inch below the shoulder seam on the right
sleeve. All patches previously authorized to be worn in this position will be removed.
The Development Committee has been tasked with recommending new placement
policy for these optional patches and the National Board is expected to act on their
recommendation at the winter meeting in March 2006. Members may begin wearing the
flag immediately but the mandatory wear date is 1 June 2006.
2. A formal change to CAPM 39-1, “CAP Uniforms,” will be forthcoming. If additional
information or assistance is required please call Membership Services at 877-227-9142.

[Matt]

And from LEFT FIELD... CAP NHQ!

[flyguy06]

UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. All these dang uniform changes. First the Army does a total change im n look, now CAP is trying to be like the army. Where does it end?

[MIKE]

And from LEFT FIELD... CAP NHQ!

Nah... You are just not as informed as some of us.  

Anyway... Here are some links so you can get yourself some.
Ranger Joe's
Brigade Quartermasters
US Cav
1800NAMETAPE.com

[footballrun21]

does the Hock Shop sell 'em?

[MIKE]

UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. All these dang uniform changes. First the Army does a total change im n look, now CAP is trying to be like the army. Where does it end?

Can I order my ACUs and black beanie now or what?  

I can't figure why the USAF would approve it (if in fact they did).... Unless they are doing it too, which seems unlikely.

[MIKE]

does the Hock Shop sell 'em?

Not yet... Only sells the left shoulder one for the zoom bag. 

[Matt]

UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. All these dang uniform changes. First the Army does a total change im n look, now CAP is trying to be like the army. Where does it end?

Can I order my ACUs and black beanie now or what? 

I can't figure why the USAF would approve it (if in fact they did).... Unless they are doing it too, which seems unlikely.

Well, if they're on the BDUs, I believe they have to, even if it comes out in memo format as it did.

What next though... Subdued Tapes? LMAO.

[footballrun21]

its supposed to be full color, right?

[MIKE]

its supposed to be full color, right?

Affirmative.

I posted links to exactly what you will need a few posts up... Look there.

[Chris Jacobs]

I think i have an idea of why the Flag is reversed on the shoulder but i was wondering if any one knows for sure why we wear a reversed flag instead of a regular flag.

[PhoenixRisen]

I think i have an idea of why the Flag is reversed on the shoulder but i was wondering if any one knows for sure why we wear a reversed flag instead of a regular flag.

Proper flag etiquette. The stars lead the bars. Since it's on the right shoulder, the bars are in the front (hence, that would make it reversed). On the flight suit, it's on the left shoulder because it's not reversed (hence the stars are on the left again).

[Chris Jacobs]

Now that makes sense.  Thanks for helping the dumb Lt out on that one.

[Matt]

Also, the other part is the fact that the stars on the blue background are closer to the heart... Something about loyalty.  My thought is the loyalty comes from one's heart or something.... *shrugs*

[Pylon]

Well, the General said it was coming and it came.

I just hope they further specify "full color" flag, because I can see some barracks-lawyering-cadets who will wear the DCU or BDU subdued flags and say the supplement doesn't indicate what color the flag should be.   

Oh well... another uniform change.  I'm going to adopt early just to get it out of the way.

[NIN]

Well, the General said it was coming and it came.

I just hope they further specify "full color" flag, because I can see some barracks-lawyering-cadets who will wear the DCU or BDU subdued flags and say the supplement doesn't indicate what color the flag should be.   

Oh well... another uniform change.  I'm going to adopt early just to get it out of the way.

www.militaryclothing.com

[capchiro]

I am not totally happy with this because I will now have to remove my radiological monotoring patch, which I have worked hard over the last thirty years to maintain.   The memo stated that they are trying to come up with someplace else for the right shoulder patch to go.  I wonder where that will be.  Probably not important to the big cheese since he doesn't have a RM patch or certification.

[Matt]

Well, since we're going Army, the location will probably be 1/2" below the flag.

[Pylon]

Well, since we're going Army, the location will probably be 1/2" below the flag.

If we wear a patch under the flag, then the Army guys will think thats a unit we went into combat with...  based on how they wear their patches now.   

[MIKE]

Well, since we're going Army, the location will probably be 1/2" below the flag.

On ACUs yes, but on the the BDU/DCU the flag is worn beneath the FWTS patch if worn.

[MIKE]

www.militaryclothing.com

Cheaper here:
http://www.1800nametape.com/flags.htm#REVERSED

[footballrun21]

Well, since we're going Army, the location will probably be 1/2" below the flag.

On ACUs yes, but on the the BDU/DCU the flag is worn beneath the FWTS patch if worn.

Having the flag beneath the NCSA patchs would look better IMO.  I like flag idea, though.  A lot of people (lets say at an air show) think we are military.  When they ask and we say we aren't, they just go, oh, and walk away.  This patch will make us look more military like and give us a better image in the public's eye.

[Chris Jacobs]

I am not sure if i am the bigest fan of wearing the flag if the air force isn't.  But i sure am proud to wear it.  I wish the air force would catch up with the army and get it on theirs also so that we look more uniform.

[Cam89]

I think the flag idea is a good one. Why didn't they think of it years ago?

[Pace]

I'm not opposed to wearing the US Flag, I'm opposed to adding another patch, especially when it takes us closer to another branch's uniform wear.  There are many questions and concerns I have with how this was put into effect and its necessity, but I'm not going to repeat what I already posted on cadetstuff.

[Horn229]

Well, I'm trying to figure out how he has the authority to do this. According to CAPR 5-1 the national commander can have an emergency regulation put into play, but it doesn't say anything about policy letters.

[MIKE]

does the Hock Shop sell 'em?

Not yet... Only sells the left shoulder one for the zoom bag. 

Just thought I would add that I saw that Tom has recently noted on the site that the flag he sells currently is not the the correct one for the BDU or CAPDFU... So he apparently is aware of the change and you can probably expect him to begin stocking the proper flag shortly.

Also noted this:

Due to technical difficulties CAPMart's website will be down until further notice. Please call our order lines at 1-888-834-1781 or 1-800-633-8768 or fax your order to 334-265-6381 We apologize for this inconvenience.

[Pace]

Due to technical difficulties CAPMart's website will be down until further notice. Please call our order lines at 1-888-834-1781 or 1-800-633-8768 or fax your order to 334-265-6381 We apologize for this inconvenience.

[flyguy06]

Having the flag beneath the NCSA patchs would look better IMO.  I like flag idea, though.  A lot of people (lets say at an air show) think we are military.  When they ask and we say we aren't, they just go, oh, and walk away.  This patch will make us look more military like and give us a better image in the public's eye.
[/quote]

Are you sure youi want to be mistaken for the military? Some CAP members are not ready for that. It can also bite a person in the butt in they arent careful. Some of these 17 year old cadets with their buzz cuts look like Privates. If an Army NCO sees them, and doesnt realize who they are, they might get cussed out or chewed out. SO, ALthough it may be "ccol" to look like something you admire. It also comes with great responsibility

[footballrun21]

Looking military has its privileges, though.  Like when you go to get on an AFB, if you're wearing your uniform and give them your ID, you get in with no problem.  If you just give them your ID with no uniform or they get confused (or your parents are in the front seats and you're in the back with tinted windows and aren't visible in uniform), then it takes a whole lot longer.

[c/LTCOLorbust]

Is it the same as the wing patch??? 1/2 inch down and centered?

[PhoenixRisen]

Is it the same as the wing patch??? 1/2 inch down and centered?

Yes, it's 1/2 inch down and centered. I can't say it's the same as my wing patch though, since we in the CAWG have it at 3/4 inch down due to the irregular shape.

[Eclipse]

Due to technical difficulties CAPMart's website will be down until further notice. Please call our order lines at 1-888-834-1781 or 1-800-633-8768 or fax your order to 334-265-6381 We apologize for this inconvenience.

It is likely this is due to the fact that on 1 Jan there will be no more CAP Mart.
We will be purchasing our CAP-specific uniform parts direct from Vanguard.

Though this is still officially "rumor", it has now be confirmed from several non-offcial sources.

[Cam89]

What? I buy alot of my things there. Did they not get enough people to buy from them?

[lreichardt]

More or less.

[Eclipse]

Though I doubt anyone is going to miss them, it was likely an economic decision as there is no logical reason for CAP to be the middleman when all it does is add cost and hassle to NHQ.

Vanuard actually makes a lot of the stuff CAPMart sells, and I am told their ecommerce experience is far superior to that which CAPMart offers today.

As to those that might suggest the Hock as an alternative, though he's got some stuff it's hard to get elsewhere, what he is selling is unlicensed, unapproved stuff.

In many cases the quality is much lower than the "real" stuff from NHQ - this is especially evident in patches and ribbons where there are serious color problems and
long-term wear issues.  The ILWG Wing patch, for example, that the Hock sells show yellow wings, when they are supposed to be gold.  You can see a Hock Wing patch from a mile away.

[Pace]

At the same time, some of the Hock's stuff is better than CrAPMart's.  For example, the ground team badges show much more detail than the "authorized" ones from NHQ.

[footballrun21]

Is it a matter of the hock shop having unlicenced/ unapproved stuff or is it that he just has better quality/newer or older items than CAPMart has.

[c/LTCOLorbust]

Can we order right from Vanguard?

[Eclipse]

I had my Group legal officer address this to them directly - literally asked how it was that they were getting away with selling CAP copywritten logos and insignia w/o NHQ throwing a cease and desist at them as they did about a year ago with the nametapes /  flightsuit tag guys.

The answer was that they have simply gone to PAC-Rim manufacturers and had them create their own versions of the insignia, patches, etc.

They also seemed surprised that this was even an issue.  Considering that their prices are the same or sometimes more than CM, I would imagine they turn a fair profit on the stuff they've had made themselves.

I've bought, and will continue to buy, generic stuff from there, like BDU stiffeners, but
won't buy any insignia, etc., for two reasons, first, on principal because of the licensing issues, but more so because they are "different".  Even if they are, in some cases, arguably better in detail, they will still stand out as different, which is not the point of a uniform item.

The cadets and seniors in my unit have been instructed similiarly.

[skandalintegra]

I think i have an idea of why the Flag is reversed on the shoulder but i was wondering if any one knows for sure why we wear a reversed flag instead of a regular flag.

Proper flag etiquette. The stars lead the bars. Since it's on the right shoulder, the bars are in the front (hence, that would make it reversed). On the flight suit, it's on the left shoulder because it's not reversed (hence the stars are on the left again).

Thats a better way to put it..  GySgt Ermey from Mail Call on the History Channel said to think of it as the flag doesn't retreat.  If an infantryman walked with the normal flag on his right arm, it would look like the flag was going backwards, away from the enemy.  So its reversed 

[Five-seveN]

i thought it was more like the Stars would be leading the way as you talk in service of the USA, plus thats how the flag looks when it being' carried.

[skandalintegra]

In that sense, yes that is how it works.  I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining.

[abysmal]

It surprises me to see just how much controversy this new flag policy generated here.
I would have thought this would be a Slam-Dunk no-brainer.
We should have had it years ago.

[Pylon]

It surprises me to see just how much controversy this new flag policy generated here.
I would have thought this would be a Slam-Dunk no-brainer.
We should have had it years ago.

Yeah, I don't care either way.  Sure, it's one more piece we have to add to the bare minimum of our uniforms, but it works. 

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

CAP is always trying to tote that we're "Performing missions for America™"  -- well, wearing the American flag on our shoulders portrays that a bit.  I don't see why not.   I guess I'm indifferent.

If it were optional, I'm not sure if I'd wear it or not; since it's mandatory for wear, I'll go ahead and adopt it without bucking the chain of command.  There's more important things for me to be picking at the chain about, like recruiting/retention and CAP's state of affairs in other similar realms.

[footballrun21]

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

Squadron patches, as well.  They are in the same place as the unit patches for the Air Force, but they are completly different.

[Eclipse]

They're not supposed to be so different, but many units have chosen not to follow the rules of heraldry and their Wing CC's approved in appropriate patches.

The issue of subdued vs. full-color not withstanding, our design should be the same as other branches - disc w/ rockers for units, shields for Groups & other hq componets.

[PhoenixRisen]

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

Squadron patches, as well.  They are in the same place as the unit patches for the Air Force, but they are completly different.

In what way are you referring to unit patches being different? Do you mean they're not the shield type, or they're not subdued? If that's what you're talking about (which is what everyone means when they bring this up) lots of them are, including mine.



If that's not what you were talking about, sorry for my rambling on about this.

[arajca]

In the Air Force, unit patches are a disc with arcs. The arcs contain the unit designation (lower) and unit motto (upper). If the unit has no motto, the upper arc may be left off. Some older unit patches have the arcs reversed, but IIRC, they are slowly being changed to comply with the AF standard. Groups, wings, and higher level use the modified heater shield with an attahced scroll (aka the AF shield) for the shape of their patches.

CAP doesn't follow this standard, but should.

[Mac]

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

Squadron patches, as well.  They are in the same place as the unit patches for the Air Force, but they are completly different.

Actually Squadron patches in the Air Force are not worn in the same location as CAP wears Sq patches. Air Force Members wear their command patch (ACC, AFSC, AFMC, etc.) on the right pocket, and our Wing patch or occupational badge on the left pocket. If your squadron has a patch it is worn 1/2 inch above your name tape, the same place we can wear the ES patch in CAP.

[footballrun21]

I don't get why everone is arguing about CAP and the Air Force not being the same.  Just face it, CAP and USAF do different things, they aren't exactly the same department.

[Eclipse]

Here is a link to the USAF Rules of Heraldry

http://www.usafpatches.com/pubs/afheraldryguide.pdf

As you will see, units should be a disc w/ rockers, not a shield.

Shields are indicated for "Headquarters Components" or "Major Commands".

Though we are not technically bound by these guidelines, for affinity and consistency with our military bretheren, the IL Wing CC indicated (in 2002ish) that existing patches did not need to change, however new insignia designs needed to adhere as closely as possible to the guidelines. Exceptions are made on a limited basis.

Units with existing designs should move to re-shape them to conform for future patch
runs.

Obviously this only holds weight in Iliinois, but the hearldry rules are the same for everyone.

Though it's an interesting idea, I don't think creating subdued insignia for our BDU's is necessary or even appropriate.  The only reason for subdued insignia is to maintain the camo protection which is broken by bright colors.  Since that is a combat issue, it does not apply to CAP.

I've designed two insignia to this point, one approved, one in pending stage.
I've also had input on a number of others.

Illinois Group 22 (approved and in use), and Palwaukee Composite (design approved pending final spec):

(note, one exception here is the Roman numeral in the main field to pay respect to
the fact that PWK has had an active unit since 1942)

[ddelaney103]

Units should really look at some good books on medieval heraldry as well as AF heraldry regs.

Many times people come up with pretty designs that are far too difficult to see when translated into a patch.  I think a few of the examples above illustrate the problem.  When coming up with something that works well on a 3" design viewed at a distance of 5' simplicity and boldness are the keys.

Dan Delaney

[Eclipse]

Getting that eagle rendered correctly is going to be expensive, and we're assuming the Roman letters will nearly blend in at a distance, which was why we didn't agonize over having a number in the main field - we still go back and forth on it and may not incorporate it in the patch.

If you read the rules, you would also see that the Group patch features the state of Illinois, which is a violation of the standard as well.  However there is plenty of historical justification both in CAP and the military for having a state on the flag, especially with Wing patches - most of which don't come close to adhering to any standard.

[ddelaney103]

I think you hit a lot of the important points on those patches.

Contrast is the big factor.  With the Group patch, the AF symbol should be silver, IAW AF Symbol Guidelines (http://www.af.mil/library/symbol/index.asp).  Though the outline is probably legal, from a visual standpoint it's a poor choice.

There's a similar problem with the CAP "Command Patch."  I would have just put the triangle - which is what it will look like on the patch as the border is going to disappear.

I don't think the AF restriction on locations should be applied to CAP, as our units are tied to the location while the AF unit can move from NY to CA over the course of its life.  Putting a white aircraft on a white IL might not be the best choice, though it does show why we put the red stripes on the aircraft. 

I think a good rule of thumb for patches is: can I make a good stencil of it?  My WIWAC Sqdn had one that was all shapes except the number, which meant it made a great stencil.  We used to put it on all the equipment.  I remember seeing it sewn on the back of somebody's field jacket in reflective material.  Mind you, this was a long time ago when the AF would sew reflective material on their field jackets as well.

[footballrun21]

How did we gt on the topic of squadron/group/wing patches when this post was about the American flag patch?

[SarDragon]

How did we gt on the topic of squadron/group/wing patches when this post was about the American flag patch?

Ummm....  maybe here? 

Not everything we do mimicks the Air Force.  Our wing patches certainly don't mimick the USAF uniforms, but people aren't quick to dump those for that sole reason.  Just because the USAF doesn't wear American flag patches, doesn't mean CAP shouldn't based soley on that premise.

Squadron patches, as well.  They are in the same place as the unit patches for the Air Force, but they are completly different.

[footballrun21]

hehe, that was by me too.

[shorning]

hehe, that was by me too.

Glad to see you're paying attention...

[iowacap]

Though I doubt anyone is going to miss them, it was likely an economic decision as there is no logical reason for CAP to be the middleman when all it does is add cost and hassle to NHQ.

Vanuard actually makes a lot of the stuff CAPMart sells, and I am told their ecommerce experience is far superior to that which CAPMart offers today.

As to those that might suggest the Hock as an alternative, though he's got some stuff it's hard to get elsewhere, what he is selling is unlicensed, unapproved stuff.

In many cases the quality is much lower than the "real" stuff from NHQ - this is especially evident in patches and ribbons where there are serious color problems and
long-term wear issues.  The ILWG Wing patch, for example, that the Hock sells show yellow wings, when they are supposed to be gold.  You can see a Hock Wing patch from a mile away.

I dont have any experience with the patches or ribbons but I purchased my blues and BDU from the hock and is very good quality. All of my blues stuff is the same that the AF wears because it has inspected and apporoved by USAF that type of thing and the wear has been very good so I would say for uniform items it has been worth it and that but I did get my flight suit from the deceased capmart and is also very good and quality so either way both are good.

[Eclipse]

Clothing has never been an issue - by design it is all coming from the same handful of vendors.

The issue is ribbons and decorations which the Hock has produced by knock-off vendors in the PAC-RIM.

[Pylon]

I ordered 60 of these patches from AAFES at only 0.80 a pop.  I figured that much would last us for a while, but I'm already sold out.  Selling them at a clean buck per patch both saved our members money from most retail prices and helped put a few pennies away for other supply losses.

The AAFES patches were of good quality and color thread, and look fine on the uniform.  I haven't heard how the other ones are working out from other vendors, but for only 80 cents, with no tax and free shipping -- it's a hard bargain to beat.

Most personnel in my squadron have already sewn on the patch and the few remaining late adopters seem to mostly be people who already had a right-sleeve patch and are wondering what to do now.

[ladyreferee]

I've asked Knowledgebase twice now about whether or not the US Flag Patch is to go on the BDU field jacket as well as the blouse.  No one has deemed it necessary to give me a definitive answer yet. 

The CAPM39-1 says the same accouterments on the jacket as the blouse, but the memo that came out does not mention the jacket at all.  Anyone hear anything definitive either way?

[MIKE]

Put it on the field jacket also.

[footballrun21]

Put it on the field jacket also.

Well thats a strait answer. 

[Nick]

Yeah, I concur with that one.  Everything you find on a BDU shirt goes on the field jacket (minus the different placement of rank insignia).

[Eclipse]

Same goes for the inverse of the wing patches being optional.

[Kerrbie]

I recently heard about the American flag patch thing in my Squadron. Why are we getting it? Isn't only the army that had that patch? Last time i checked we were not the army.

[SarDragon]

I recently heard about the American flag patch thing in my Squadron. Why are we getting it? Isn't only the army that had that patch? Last time i checked we were not the army.

NHQ says we get to wear it. They have not seen fit to justify their decision, so, salute and execute.

[shorning]

Last time i checked we were not the army.

I dunno...have you checked recently?

[Kerrbie]

Last time i checked we were not the army.

I dunno...have you checked recently?

lol yep! I had to were my blues for encampment staff selection day and i looked at my nameplate!
It said Airforce Auxiliary! I'm pretty sure anyway. <.<>.>

[shorning]

Last time i checked we were not the army.

I dunno...have you checked recently?

lol yep! I had to were my blues for encampment staff selection day and i looked at my nameplate!
It said Airforce Auxiliary! I'm pretty sure anyway. <.<>.>

Right...but have you checked lately?  Like....now.  Or...now.  What about.......now?  See.  You never know.

[Kerrbie]

Last time i checked we were not the army.

I dunno...have you checked recently?

lol yep! I had to were my blues for encampment staff selection day and i looked at my nameplate!
It said Airforce Auxiliary! I'm pretty sure anyway. <.<>.>

Right...but have you checked lately?  Like....now.  Or...now.  What about.......now?  See.  You never know.

*goes to look at her uniform* ^^ yep! still there! lol

[shorning]

Last time i checked we were not the army.

I dunno...have you checked recently?

lol yep! I had to were my blues for encampment staff selection day and i looked at my nameplate!
It said Airforce Auxiliary! I'm pretty sure anyway. <.<>.>

Right...but have you checked lately?  Like....now.  Or...now.  What about.......now?  See.  You never know.

*goes to look at her uniform* ^^ yep! still there! lol

Of course it is.  Your nametag isn't going to change magically.  Once it's been engraved it's not going to change.  Out status could change, but that wouldn't affect the nametag you currently own.

Otherwise...don't fret it.  "Salute and execute".

[Matt]

Last time i checked we were not the army.

I dunno...have you checked recently?

lol yep! I had to were my blues for encampment staff selection day and i looked at my nameplate!
It said Airforce Auxiliary! I'm pretty sure anyway. <.<>.>

Right...but have you checked lately?  Like....now.  Or...now.  What about.......now?  See.  You never know.

*goes to look at her uniform* ^^ yep! still there! lol

Please note: the new nametag, at least for Semembers rid the USAF Aux portion.

[Kerrbie]

Oh i did not know that

Of course it is.  Your nametag isn't going to change magically.  Once it's been engraved it's not going to change.  Out status could change, but that wouldn't affect the nametag you currently own.

Otherwise...don't fret it.  "Salute and execute".

andI know not to fret because i wasn't i was just joking.

[Becks]

Last time i checked we were not the army.

I dunno...have you checked recently?

lol yep! I had to were my blues for encampment staff selection day and i looked at my nameplate!
It said Airforce Auxiliary! I'm pretty sure anyway. <.<>.>

Right...but have you checked lately?  Like....now.  Or...now.  What about.......now?  See.  You never know.

*goes to look at her uniform* ^^ yep! still there! lol

Please note: the new nametag, at least for Semembers rid the USAF Aux portion.

I assume youre talking about the two-line  blue nametag for the new distinctive uniform?

[Matt]

Yup