Professional Development Credit for Prior Cadet Service

[mikeylikey]

Interim Change Letter – CAPR 50-17, CAP Senior Member Professional
Development Program and CAPR 280-2, Civil Air Patrol Aerospace Education Mission

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_06_04_Officer_credit_for_cadet_service_.pdf

I don't agree with the awarding of SLS, AFIADL 13 and Level 2 to Eaker Cadets, but it looks like I may be in the minority. 

[MIKE]

The only thing that should transfer is if you took AFIADL 13 as a cadet for Eaker.  So, I basicly do not agree with anything in this ICL, and I think I said that when it was first proposed.

[dwb]

Wow, what a bad idea.

I'm sorry, but even as a senior cadet, I didn't have a grasp on how a squadron ran, or the job of a senior member that oversees a cadet program.

To award SLS and CP rating credit to former cadets is an acknowledgement that the NEC doesn't understand the difference between the role of a senior cadet and the role of the CP senior member.

Thumbs down on this one.

[dwb]

BTW, awarding Level II credit to Eaker cadets makes them eligible for Captain after 18 months... thereby removing yet another incentive to take the Spaatz.

"Don't worry, Mr. Eaker Cadet, you'll get Captain without having to do anything, just wait your turn."

Nice.

[Flying Pig]

BTW, awarding Level II credit to Eaker cadets makes them eligible for Captain after 18 months... thereby removing yet another incentive to take the Spaatz.

"Don't worry, Mr. Eaker Cadet, you'll get Captain without having to do anything, just wait your turn."

Nice.

So a cadet works for years climbing the ladder, and they are going to stop at C/LTC because they now have SM Capt. wrapped up?  Im sorry, could I get a show of hands from any Spaatz cadet that was salivating over a set SM Capt. bars as their motivation?   

[kpetersen]

I'll actually agree with it with some caveats. 

Pro:

• Part of the reason we have SDAs are to teach the senior cadets the operations on the senior member side of the house.
• A cadet program officer isn't really that much different from the higher-up cadets.  Particullarly if the cadet had time after being cadet commander.  It depends on the maturity of the cadet, the seriousness they apply to the job, and other positions they may hold (wing cadet commander or assistant to cadet programs).  It also depends on how much responsibility you give to the cadets in your squadron.

I still would recommend a cadet attend CLC and TLC.  They may know most of the stuff (I did), but the refresher is good.  Also, just because a former cadet has the ratings doesn't mean they should automatically be placed as a DCC.  Give them a subordinate job until they get it down.

BTW, awarding Level II credit to Eaker cadets makes them eligible for Captain after 18 months... thereby removing yet another incentive to take the Spaatz.

There's enough other discentives to take the spaatz that the "becoming a captain" is a minor one.  Most Eaker cadets I know either weren't able to pass the spaatz/ran out of time, or just didn't want to do anything more with the program, and left.  Personally, the reason I didn't want to take it is because I didn't want to be associated with the self-focused, over induldged Spaatz cadets.

[Psicorp]

There's enough other discentives to take the spaatz that the "becoming a captain" is a minor one.  Most Eaker cadets I know either weren't able to pass the spaatz/ran out of time, or just didn't want to do anything more with the program, and left.  Personally, the reason I didn't want to take it is because I didn't want to be associated with the self-focused, over induldged Spaatz cadets.

Put me in that catagory.  I'm grateful for not having to take the ECI-13, but I will still take the SLS as there is always something new to be learned from more experienced Officers.   I'm not sure if I'm happy about making Captain or upset that now I have to order Captain insignia sooner than I had planned.   There has to be a Vanguard conspiracy in this somewhere.   

[dwb]

For sure, a senior cadet is going to be comfortable with some of the knowledge requirements for a Technician-level CP rating.  I would hope a cadet officer would be able to explain the minimum requirements to progress in the cadet program, or how to wear a uniform.

However, they also need to be able to discuss the cadet protection policy as it relates to adult supervision, define and discuss mentoring, describe procedures for safeguarding cadet tests, know about safety policies, and ideally, have an understanding for how the program elements are interrelated (all of these items taken from CAPP 216, pg 6)

I'm willing to bet the average C/Lt Col doesn't have all of that knowledge.  So we're bending the rules by saying they don't need to have that knowledge before they're rated.

Furthermore, SLS covers topics such as Officership and the Public Trust and Intro to Professional Development, two topics that a cadet probably wouldn't get a lot of exposure to.

Perhaps even more importantly, attending SLS puts the former cadet amongst his new peers, a room full of other senior members.  I attended SLS after being a senior member for less than a year, so I still had a lot of cadet left in me.  It's important for young senior members that are former cadets to spend time with other senior members, to get them out of cadet mode.

Ultimately, this isn't an Earth-shattering policy.  I'm just stating why I think it was the wrong way to go.

[Pylon]

I guess my overarching question is: Why reduce the amount of prof. dev. for any officer?

We need better trained, more rounded and more aware CAP officers across the board.  Why are we reducing simple PD courses that don't take a lot of effort to complete, are readily available and offer opportunities for young new SMs (heck, all SMs) to meet and share conversations with peers, learn new tricks and ensure every officer is seeing the big picture.

Added to that, cadets with the Mitchell already get Level I orientation course waived.  How much more should we really be added to that?   What is covered in SLS is not necessarily learned through SDAs and experience as a cadet officer.

We don't waive SLS for military PME equivalents, we don't waive it for JROTC MSI's or anybody else.  I guess I don't see it as a big added incentive for cadet officers to become senior members, so why did we do it?   

[Timothy]

They do seem to be very focused on waiving quals in the hope that it will increase recruiting... I think that in most cases these are just bonuses to people that would have done it anyway.

I was a C/Lt Col in JROTC, and a C/3C in ROTC... <shrug> If there had been a magical waiver or early promotion available to me for any of that it would not have influenced my decision to join at all. As it is I'm more than happy to put in my 6 months for butter bar, and would not pass up the chance to take ECI-13 or SLS regardless.

I think that needing to take these Senior Member PD courses is also a good way to put the cadets in "senior mode," that their responsibilities are now different in the organization and help them fit into the senior structure.

[Pylon]

You'd likely get much better results with some targeted marketing including tracking cadets who "graduate" from the program and do not "cross over" to target them again right about the time they graduate from college and throw-in a waiver of first-year dues for those who "come back".

Unfortunately, that does take money and man hours to implement.  Waiving PD requirements does not.   I still think you'd get better results from the former.

[Trung Si Ma]

I'd rather they opened level II and III training - as it exists now - to cadet officers.  Let them earn - and wear - the Davis and the Loening as cadet officers.

[MIKE]

I don't think it's fair at all... Actually, think it gives some too much credit for their former cadetness, which I don't see as equivalent to their seniorness.  Smacks of a free ride, instead of benefiting both senior and cadet programs.

I'd rather they opened level II and III training - as it exists now - to cadet officers.  Let them earn - and wear - the Davis and the Loening as cadet officers.

I'd rather they just become seniors.

[mikeylikey]

^ Spot on Mike.  Especially when we see Cadets who are good test takers reach Eaker or SPAATZ, but never really contribute to the SQD.  This is a free ride, that in the end only really benefits a few (current members).  I am shocked it was even proposed, and even more shocked it was actually approved.

Every single Senior Member should be required to take the AFIADL 13, SLS and CLC at a minimum!  There should be no waivers, and no credit given for these three courses.  There are things even the most awesome Cadet will never see nor do because they are CADETS!  Lets not forget, Senior Members run the Cadet Program in the SQD's, Cadets may think they are running things, but they are not. 

As a former Cadet, should I be able to backdate my Professional Development Completion dates?  Is that fair to everyone else?  I don't think so. 

I am also the guy that believes everyone should come in as a 2nd Lt.  Even though I could have entered the program as a Capt, and been a Major by now, I choose to do the "traditional program", and start as a 2nd Lt, not a Captain.  Because of that there are people that are Majors now that joined after me, but I know when I am promoted in CAP, it means more than it would have. (totally off topic, but somewhat related, sorry)

[Flying Pig]

I'd rather they opened level II and III training - as it exists now - to cadet officers.  Let them earn - and wear - the Davis and the Loening as cadet officers.

Well Holy Cow!  This is an idea.  Give cadet officers a chance to attend the courses as cadets.  I like it.

[Psicorp]

I don't think it's fair at all... Actually, think it gives some too much credit for their former cadetness, which I don't see as equivalent to their seniorness.  Smacks of a free ride, instead of benefiting both senior and cadet programs.

I believe that's why the "free ride" is being done on a case-by-case bases with approval required by the unit commander.   I can't imagine a commander giving that approval to a member who wasn't making a valuable contribution to the unit.

[Psicorp]

I'd rather they opened level II and III training - as it exists now - to cadet officers.  Let them earn - and wear - the Davis and the Loening as cadet officers.

Well Holy Cow!  This is an idea.  Give cadet officers a chance to attend the courses as cadets.  I like it.

I'd much rather see the Cadet Officer School be conducted much more often and in far more places and have it's completion be a requirement for the Earhart Award.

[MIKE]

I don't think it's fair at all... Actually, think it gives some too much credit for their former cadetness, which I don't see as equivalent to their seniorness.  Smacks of a free ride, instead of benefiting both senior and cadet programs.

I believe that's why the "free ride" is being done on a case-by-case bases with approval required by the unit commander.   I can't imagine a commander giving that approval to a member who wasn't making a valuable contribution to the unit.

I can.

[smitjud]

Wow...when i saw this come out this morning I was shocked.

I don't have a problem with the AFIADL 13 waiver, I've long thought that if AFIADL 13 would substitute for RCLS or COS that it should work in reverse. i think thats fair and will be a good thing.

I'm not a big fan of the SLS waiver, but I'm ok with it.

Where I draw contention with this comes with the automatic Level II, freebie Yeager, and freebie specialty track ratings.

Like several of you have mentioned, even senior cadets are often in the blind when it comes to what it takes to make the cadet program work on the senior side of things.  I know whan I first crossed into the grey back in 2003, it was an eye-opening experience.  I think SLS is a good introduction to the senior program for new seniors, even if they were Spaatz cadets.  I think moving through the tasks associated with the specialty tracks is important  to having a "big picture"  understanding of the program and gives you knowledge that being in possession of that award doesn't automatically assume you have.

For instance, I'm good friends with a former cadet who earned their Spaatz only attending their basic encampment, never having attended an NCSA, and doing very little beyond that and the minimum requirements.  I would hope that in giving folks these "freebies" that they would be consideraby more well rounded.

While one or two things are nice with this, overall, its bad bad bad.

[Pylon]

I believe that's why the "free ride" is being done on a case-by-case bases with approval required by the unit commander.   I can't imagine a commander giving that approval to a member who wasn't making a valuable contribution to the unit.

How many promotions and specialty track ratings are approved at the squadron level for members who never contribute but kept their body warm and paid dues for the requisite amount of time? 

CAP has the mentality of "I checked the boxes, gimme the treat."  Very few and far between are the commanders who withhold promotions, ratings, and trinkets from members who have the TIG/TIS, or have checked the minimum boxes, but never actually helped the squadron.