How much leadership training do our seniors really need?

[RiverAux]

Though I meant it in good fun (and I hope Dnall recognized that), perhaps I was a little unfair.  I asked a question and he gave a legitimate answer to it.  However, I would be very interested in seeing a more detailed agenda for what a 45-day CAP leadership course would look like. 

[DNall]

45 days in one year?  I know you're not insane, but you're stepping awfully close to the border.   You do realize that this is almost 1 day a week or two weekends a month and that such a class would have to be done at group or wing level in order to have enough students to make it worthwhile, so very likely would involve significant travel?

One mtg a week and one wknd a month. That's what most people spend now. It's just focused on this for a year rather than splitting your attention a hundred ways. It's self paced. If the member wants to do other things or doesn't have time then they can stretch it out to three years. Online modules at your own pace, local officership mentor, separate specialty track mentor at Gp/Wg level. Crawl-walk-run progression thru entry level ldr/mgr tasks demo'd thru staff position under supervision by mentor, plus some minor assignments.

It's not too bad. It's what should actually be happening right now & throughout your CAP career, but doesn't. This is just formalizing & directing that process with accountability. I understand that's a lot to ask. It's one time in your career to become an entry level officer/leader/manager.

You really want to dev a theoretical course content, we can do that.

[RiverAux]

One mtg a week and one wknd a month. That's what most people spend now.

I don't think thats exactly right.  Maybe for seniors working with cadets.  Most squadrons in my wing have 2 meetings a month for seniors.  Part of the reason we have trouble finding seniors to work with cadets is the fact that they meet every week and most adults just aren't into it.  Theres a reason that the NG doesn't do it that way anymore....

In any case, ..... seeing as how squadrons rarely have more than a couple of new people at one time it wouldn't be practical to do this at the squadron level.  So, they would need to be centrally gathered and this would pretty much preclude night time meetings for those more than an hour away.  I don't see any way to do it without two weekends a month. 

[DrJbdm]

The true leadership we need is to be able to influence people to do what is needed, without being heavy handed. In a military setting, you order someone. We know that is difficult with volunteers.

In the military, an officer can say: "Go clean the bathrooms." The response should be "Yes, sir (or ma'am)"

In CAP? "Go clean the bathrooms." The response: "Screw you, I'm a volunteer!"

Do we like to admit it? No. Which is why we need to be teaching people how to lead, not command.

  Thats the problem with CAP; we're too focused on being a VOLUNTEER instead of being a true professional (paid or unpaid) CAP is so focused on making sure everyone knows that we are volunteers. it's creating a less professional image in my opinion. I completely agree, we need to be teaching people how to lead.

Bathrooms do need to be cleaned, but it's all in how you make the request. it has nothing to do with being a volunteer. volunteers can still be fired.

[lordmonar]

DrJbdm,

I don't think that is really the problem.  IMHO most CAP Volunteers are very professional.  But we are always volunteers.  Not wanting to do the necessary work and following the regulations that they volunteer to do is a mark of unprofessional and poor leadership.  Not on the individual but the leadership that puts up with it.

Someone does not want to clean the bathrooms...you say...thank you, there's the door.  For the most part we have a very professional organisation.  We can make it more professional simply by eliminating those who don't want to do what they volunteered for.

I don't really think we need to be spending a whole lot of time in a class room teaching leadership.  We need to teach leadership by mentoring and giving our members meaningful jobs and timely on the job training.

We need more UCCs and Squadron Staff Schools (where you teach how to do different squadron jobs).

[RiverAux]

You really want to dev a theoretical course content, we can do that.

Yes, please....and I'm not just asking to make you put your money where you mouth is, I really would be interested in seeing your ideas on this. 

[DNall]

One mtg a week and one wknd a month. That's what most people spend now.

I don't think thats exactly right.  Maybe for seniors working with cadets.  Most squadrons in my wing have 2 meetings a month for seniors.  Part of the reason we have trouble finding seniors to work with cadets is the fact that they meet every week and most adults just aren't into it.  Theres a reason that the NG doesn't do it that way anymore....

In any case, ..... seeing as how squadrons rarely have more than a couple of new people at one time it wouldn't be practical to do this at the squadron level.  So, they would need to be centrally gathered and this would pretty much preclude night time meetings for those more than an hour away.  I don't see any way to do it without two weekends a month. 

Units meet on avg from 12.5 (3hrs per wk x 50wks/12mos) to 16 hrs a month. I was in a unit a few years ago that did one full wknd per month (16hrs). If your units are meeting a couple Saturdays a month, it's in that range. The rest of the time described is spent by the member on their own working correspondence modules (much like cadets or anyone in a PME course do). They learn the theory in the modules, then demonstrate thru action during the meeting times under the close supervision of their mentor.

There is no problem doing it at the Sq level. The learning aspects that would need to be centralized are delivered by distance learning. The same is true in the cadet program. Units don't have whole classrooms of people on the same achievement. They each go home & study their own material to progress, the meetings are times to demonstrate that learning thru action under mentors.

It's a one-on-one trained & approved mentor at the Sq level, who guides the trainee through the execution of the leaning points in thru an assigned staff job, and tracks/reports progress to higher. That's supposed to be happening already, it's just not well defined in our program, and that's very unfortunate, cause that's where you really learn to be an officer. It's all really very simple.

[RiverAux]

Units meet on avg from 12.5 (3hrs per wk x 50wks/12mos) to 16 hrs a month.

That may be the experience of cadet squadrons in your wing, but it certainly isn't the case for a single composite or senior squadron in my wing. 

[DNall]

Almost all CAP units meet one night a week for approx 3hrs 50wks a year = 12.5hrs/mo avg.

Some units meet a full wknd, some meet 2 Saturdays, some have some strange other format, but in almost all cases it falls in the 12-16hr/mo range.

If there is some unit out there meeting less then this, then for the life of me I don't have any idea how they're getting anything done. Even at 12-16hrs/mo meeting time, it still takes a core of staff officers an extra 20 or so hrs a month to keep the doors open.

[RiverAux]

Just for fun, I pulled up the course outline for a National Guard Basic NCO and and Advanced NCO course and below is what is in it.  This is from IL, but I assume it is pretty standard.

Basic Noncommissioned Officer Course (BNCOC), Phase 1 represents the second level of NCO Professional Military Education. There are sixteen blocks of instructions:  Equal Opportunity, Risk Management, The Army Writing Style, Conduct a Military Briefing, Communicate Effectively, Motivate Subordinates to Improve Performance, Counsel Subordinates, Apply Leadership Fundamentals, Develop Subordinate Leaders, Implement Measures to Reduce Combat Stress, NCOER, Training Management, Troop Leading Procedures, Intelligence and Electronic Warfare (IEW) Operations, Plans Orders and Annexes, Train a Squad, Squad Tactical Operations, and Graphics and Overlays. BNCOC tests the student's comprehension of the subject matter with two written examinations and 6 performance evaluations.

Advanced Noncommissioned Officer Course (ANCOC), Phase 1 represents the third level of NCO Professional Military Education. There are nineteen blocks of instruction: Implement a Total Fitness Program for a Platoon, Write a Memorandum to Persuade a Decision Maker, Brief to Persuade, Communicate Effectively, Motivate Subordinates, Develop Subordinate Leaders in a Platoon, Develop a Cohesive Platoon-Organization, Ethical Decision Making Process, Counsel Subordinates, NCOER, Stress Management, Conduct Search and Seizure, Conduct CSS Operations for a Platoon, Conduct Maintenance Operations for a Platoon, Platoon Tactical Operations, Taking Charge of a Platoon, Equal Opportunity, Training Management in a Platoon, and Plans orders and Annexes. ANCOC tests the student's comprehension of the subject matter with two written examinations and 7 performance evaluations.

[RiverAux]

Here is something else I found that bears on the subject -- a 2004 AF press release:

Local citizens receiving Air Force leadership training

by Airman 1st Class Susan Penning
20th Fighter Wing Public Affairs

7/23/2004 - SHAW AIR FORCE BASE, S.C. (AFPN) -- Airmen are not the only ones reaping the benefits of formal Air Force leadership training here. Two citizens from the local community completed five weeks of leadership classes July 23.

The training they received on base coincided with the education Airmen receive at the Senior Master Sgt. David B. Reid Airman Leadership School.

They attended classes that targeted issues they face in their own workplace, said Master Sgt. Gary DeVault, the school's flight chief.

"Everyone reaps rewards from the partnered learning experience," he said. "The community benefits from the leadership classes, and the Airmen at ALS benefit from seeing their training is not simply a required formality, but truly valuable both in the military and civilian work force."

Cheryl Wilson, assistant director of communications at nearby Sumter's 911 Center, attended the course. Ms. Wilson said the training helped her sharpen her leadership skills. She also said she can now better work with the different personalities and learning styles fellow staff members bring to her organization.

Angela Rabon, a senior detective assigned to the Sumter Police Department's violent crimes unit, also attended the class. She said she has learned to be a better leader and follower.

"The confidence I've gained through this experience has better equipped me to handle any situation," she said.

Sergeant DeVault said one reason local law enforcement officials benefit so much from the classes is because their career progression is similar to the military.

"As their careers progress, they get added responsibility," he said. "The classes here cover areas such as problem solving, standards, and discipline and counseling techniques. This very valuable information will help them as they transition into leadership roles in their field."

Here is a link to a long AF press release on how they're opening up military PME courses to civilian employees.  It focuses on civilians attending several resident courses including Squadron Officer School 
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123013108

Hmm, perhaps the AF might open up some of their in-person training to their Auxiliary?

[Gunner C]

The true leadership we need is to be able to influence people to do what is needed, without being heavy handed. In a military setting, you order someone. We know that is difficult with volunteers.

In the military, an officer can say: "Go clean the bathrooms." The response should be "Yes, sir (or ma'am)"

In CAP? "Go clean the bathrooms." The response: "Screw you, I'm a volunteer!"

Do we like to admit it? No. Which is why we need to be teaching people how to lead, not command.

  Thats the problem with CAP; we're too focused on being a VOLUNTEER instead of being a true professional (paid or unpaid) CAP is so focused on making sure everyone knows that we are volunteers. it's creating a less professional image in my opinion. I completely agree, we need to be teaching people how to lead.

Bathrooms do need to be cleaned, but it's all in how you make the request. it has nothing to do with being a volunteer. volunteers can still be fired.

:clap:

[Gunner C]

True leadership is about the only thing we have. As has been pointed out before, there are only a few legitimate command positions in CAP.

The true leadership we need is to be able to influence people to do what is needed, without being heavy handed. In a military setting, you order someone. We know that is difficult with volunteers.

In the military, an officer can say: "Go clean the bathrooms." The response should be "Yes, sir (or maam)"

In CAP? "Go clean the bathrooms." The response: "Screw you, I'm a volunteer!"

Do we like to admit it? No. Which is why we need to be teaching people how to lead, not command.

Trust me, in the RM, more often than not you have to lead more than command.  The only time I ever pulled off a "don't question, just do it" was in combat.  You have to treat people like humans just about no matter what power/authority you have over them.

GC

[DNall]

True leadership is about the only thing we have. As has been pointed out before, there are only a few legitimate command positions in CAP.

The true leadership we need is to be able to influence people to do what is needed, without being heavy handed. In a military setting, you order someone. We know that is difficult with volunteers.

In the military, an officer can say: "Go clean the bathrooms." The response should be "Yes, sir (or maam)"

In CAP? "Go clean the bathrooms." The response: "Screw you, I'm a volunteer!"

Do we like to admit it? No. Which is why we need to be teaching people how to lead, not command.

Trust me, in the RM, more often than not you have to lead more than command.  The only time I ever pulled off a "don't question, just do it" was in combat.  You have to treat people like humans just about no matter what power/authority you have over them.

GC

That's no BS right there. Especially in a reserve component. Everyone has to do extra work on their own time outside of drill. You have to motivate, inspire, and ask your subordinates to do things or nothing happens. You try to force it & you're going to get shut down even if you're right.

Just for fun, I pulled up the course outline for a National Guard Basic NCO and and Advanced NCO course...

I got the syllabus for NG OCS here if you really want to see it. A whole lot gets lost in the translation though. You learn some theory, ethics, technical skills type stuff in the classroom, but its the instructor or TAC time in the execution phase that teaches you how to be a leader.

[Fifinella]

Hmm, perhaps the AF might open up some of their in-person training to their Auxiliary?

How many CAPpers would/could do the 3 mile run? 

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a great opportunity for those able to take 6 weeks out of their lives to attend.

Re: leadership in general, I think Short Field said it well

The actual process of learning to be a leader requires a mentor or guide who helps a person develop their leadership toolkit as they conduct their day to day job.   A good leader constantly pushes his people just beyond their capabilites and helps them improve their capabilities while keeping them from failing.

To add something I read in the SOS materials, a good coach strives to put himself out of a job by developing his people to the point where they don't need him anymore.

Are there some folks in CAP who aren't called on to be leaders?  Sure.  And some folks are content with that. 

I would submit that GTLs, GBDs, AOBDs, PSCs, ICs had better be leaders.  If people want to include MPs in that category, ok.

Joe/Jane Adminofficer doesn't have to lead.  But s/he should be progressing as an admin officer, learning how to handle responsibilities like admin at a SAREX or admin for a PD weekend (assisting w/ admin for SLS, CLC courses, etc.)

Some people aren't comfortable leading.  We need managers too.  But either way, I personally don't believe in stagnation.  Whether you're a leader in any capacity or not, I think you should always be looking for ways to improve what you do and how you do it. 

[ColonelJack]

How many CAPpers would/could do the 3 mile run? 

I could ... if I didn't have to do it all at once.  Spread it out over a few days, and we're talking!

Jack

[Hawk200]

How many CAPpers would/could do the 3 mile run? 

3 mile run? Last I heard, the Air Force only did a mile and a half.

To add something I read in the SOS materials, a good coach strives to put himself out of a job by developing his people to the point where they don't need him anymore.

I'd have to agree with. And the best ones don't mind when someone doesn't need them, it's less stress on them.

[davedove]

To add something I read in the SOS materials, a good coach strives to put himself out of a job by developing his people to the point where they don't need him anymore.

I got something very similar from some of my civilian leadership classes.  The thought is that, as a supervisor, if you can't take time off because the office would fall apart without you, you haven't trained your subordinates properly.

[DNall]

Cardinal rules of leadership - first job of a leader is to train his replacement.

That isn't mentorship. Mentoring isn't training someone to do a job, making someone a better person. You're basically enforcing a very high standard, then forcing them to do work or overcome problems (some of both being manufactured for the purpose) to the standard w/o compromise. You provide instruction in the crawl stage. Guidance as they struggle w/ it in the walk stage. Then evaluation to the standard w/o compromise in the run stage. As they accomplish that aspect you can then build on it by beginning with the next. It's a one-on-one take you under their wing process.

You don't really learn leadership from a mentor, coach, or whatever you want to call it. You learn it by doing a leadership position with someone holding you accountable to the standard. A mentor just makes that a semi-friendly process with more guidance.

The problem is it requires people as mentors that are already at that standard before they can enforce it. We really don't have people at the leader/mgr progression points we need. It's not going to be easy to create them from scratch w/o some outside help.