AF Reservists fight order to wear uniform while performing civilian duties

[RiverAux]

Every once in a while when discussing uniforms the topic of members of the AF Reserve serving as civilian technicians (Air Reserve Technicians = ARTs) for the AF has come up in various contexts primarily relating to CAP augmentation of the AF).  A while back they were ordered to wear their uniforms while working as civilians.  And, according to the AF Times http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/04/airforce_airreservetechnicians_lawsuit_042408w/ some of them are suing over this order.  It seems they're not that enthused about it:

The ARTs fighting the policy worried that wearing their uniforms in their civilian capacity would put them under the jurisdiction of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and that it could create chain-of-command issues, as ARTs may hold higher military rank than civilian rank.

[JohnKachenmeister]

They might have a point.

In the Guard, techician positions are identified as "Officer" or "Enlisted" positions, since Guard techs have always been required to wear uniforms.  Since the Reserve side has never been recruited for civilian positions that way, you COULD find an NCO as the supervisor of a field grade officer.

But I don't think its worth suing over.  Individual problems can be worked out, I am sure.

[RiverAux]

One of the other issues brought up was that some of them weren't too happy about having to meet AF grooming requirements at all times.  Now, if they want to wear a beard they can until it is time for a drill day. 

Some of them were just mad about how it was implemented -- making it seem like it was for "good order and discipline" -- thereby implying that they were a bunch of lazy civilian louts now and that they needed to be put in uniform to be straightened out.

Frankly, I don't think it is a good policy to order people serving in a civilian capacity to wear a military uniform unless at the same time you are granting them all the benefits associated with full-time military service.  Heck, either put them on active duty or hire full-blooded civilians.

How does this affect CAP?  Well, not directly since it is a pretty focused order.  However, if this line of thinking is extended out, we might find that CAP members who are also members of the military might be ordered to wear their military uniforms while working in CAP. 

[DNall]

Full time civilian DoD employees have pretty much all the benefits of being in the military. What they don't have a reservist does, so I'm at a loss to see how a person in such a position would not have all the same things as active duty. If anything the dual status works in their favor for retirement purposes.

The CoC issue can be a legitimate one. As John said, we don't really have the problem so much in the guard. The reserves are a little screwy though. As far as ht/wt & grooming, they need to get the hell over that. You fail those standards or a PT test on AGR/ADSW & you're fired. They should be happy they got a job & get to work doing it. I don't have time for whiny punks, I'm sure the AF doesn't either.

How does this affect CAP?  Well, not directly since it is a pretty focused order.  However, if this line of thinking is extended out, we might find that CAP members who are also members of the military might be ordered to wear their military uniforms while working in CAP. 

That's a REALLY big stretch, and counter-intuitive.

[RiverAux]

I believe it was the medical benefits that was mentioned specifically. 

It was the grooming, not fitness that was mentioned.

Quote from: RiverAux on Today at 03:36:41 PM
How does this affect CAP?  Well, not directly since it is a pretty focused order.  However, if this line of thinking is extended out, we might find that CAP members who are also members of the military might be ordered to wear their military uniforms while working in CAP." 
"That's a REALLY big stretch, and counter-intuitive."

Just taking the "one fight" concept behind this change one step further, though I probably should have restricted it just to AF members. 

[DNall]

They get medical benefits as DoD federal civilian employees.

[RiverAux]

as good as military members and at less cost?

[DNall]

I'm not absolutely certain on this, but I believe...

Same benefit. Civilian employees are paid significantly more than their mil paygrade, but a portion is withheld to cover insurance. Whereas active mil are paid a lot less with free benefit. If they want a free benefit, I can change the system up, put them on active duty in their mil paygrade & associated positions (so you clear up that CoC issue). They'll end up with a lot less money or right to say anything about it, and still have the same benefits they do now.

Stupid losing battle on their part if you ask me.

[RiverAux]

Stupid losing battle on their part if you ask me.

I think you're right about that.

[Frenchie]

Stupid losing battle on their part if you ask me.

I think it will get thrown out in short order.  Civil service have the right to form unions and bargain collectively, and the unions are the ones filing the lawsuit.  It sounds to me like an attempt to win something in court they couldn't win at the bargaining table.  Most courts take a dim view of that.

[mikeylikey]

Maybe the AF should shop these jobs out to contract workers!  That would solve this problem. 

[RiverAux]

Thats the problem -- they've taken a sort of weird half-and-half situation wherein everyone in the job had to be a Reservist, but would work as a civilian and now are trying to blur the lines even more.  The simple solution is to either go all one way or all the other. 

[PHall]

Maybe the AF should shop these jobs out to contract workers!  That would solve this problem. 

They're NOT contract workers Mikey. Air Reserve Technitions are Federal Civil Service employees who, as a condition of their employment, must be a member of the Air Force Reserve as a condition of employment.
If they get out of the reserves they lose their jobs.

During the week, they're Civil Service employees in the WG/GS/GM ranks.
During their weekend drills, etc. they're TSgt, CMSgt, Capt.

[mikeylikey]

They're NOT contract workers Mikey. Air Reserve Technitions are Federal Civil Service employees who, as a condition of their employment, must be a member of the Air Force Reserve as a condition of employment.
If they get out of the reserves they lose their jobs.

During the week, they're Civil Service employees in the WG/GS/GM ranks.
During their weekend drills, etc. they're TSgt, CMSgt, Capt.

Understood.  However, they are reservists 24/7 also.  They only happen to have their civilian employment through the AF. 

Me personally, I would be happy to wear my uniform to work everyday.  Less khakis and dress shirts to buy.  (Mikey does wear ACU's and PT's on a daily basis because he is AD, grinding away in ROTC land)  I can see where these people are coming from as well.  They signed up to do 1 weekend a month and two weeks a year (hahahhahah.....very unlikely these days), and are being told to get in uniform everyday. 

I can also see where the AF is coming from. 

[afgeo4]

They're NOT contract workers Mikey. Air Reserve Technitions are Federal Civil Service employees who, as a condition of their employment, must be a member of the Air Force Reserve as a condition of employment.
If they get out of the reserves they lose their jobs.

During the week, they're Civil Service employees in the WG/GS/GM ranks.
During their weekend drills, etc. they're TSgt, CMSgt, Capt.

Understood.  However, they are reservists 24/7 also.  They only happen to have their civilian employment through the AF. 

Me personally, I would be happy to wear my uniform to work everyday.  Less khakis and dress shirts to buy.  (Mikey does wear ACU's and PT's on a daily basis because he is AD, grinding away in ROTC land)  I can see where these people are coming from as well.  They signed up to do 1 weekend a month and two weeks a year (hahahhahah.....very unlikely these days), and are being told to get in uniform everyday. 

I can also see where the AF is coming from. 

What about uniform issue? Reservists don't get uniforms issued as often as a/d.

[SAR-EMT1]

Im of the opinion that these folks either need to be declared Active Reserve, thus 100% military 24/7 or 100% civillian and they lose the Reserve membership requirement and uniforms.

....

I KNOW ! - WE CAN MAKE THEM VSAF! (joke)

[mikeylikey]

What about uniform issue? Reservists don't get uniforms issued as often as a/d.

I think they can afford to buy 2 extra sets of uniforms.  Don't forget Officers don't get issue.  They would be spending the money on dress clothes or whatever they were required to wear before the order to wear uniforms came out, right?!?

Mute point I think. 

[DNall]

What about uniform issue? Reservists don't get uniforms issued as often as a/d.

I don't know what the situation is for AFRes, but we (army guard) get a full issue same as active duty, then can trade out items once a year. Active duty gets a clothing allowance. I don't see where it's a problem. Uniforms cost pretty much the same as khakis & a dress shirt, maybe less. And as I said, they are being paid significantly more as civil service employees than they would if placed on AGR orders.

[SAR-EMT1]

Something I forgot to mention above is that I DETEST that unions exist among the military services.

That and  I have the general opinion that anyone associated with the military should be either AD, RES, Guard or Aux. I do not support "civillian" employees of the Defense Dept. one bit. (I hate the merc security groups under contract to the state dept too)

YMMV

[DNall]

civil service employees are not contractors, and they are certainly not private mercs working for whomever. The old lady working as secretary at a BDE HQ during the week is not a bad thing. It's no different than postal workers. I would agree that we go way too far with civilian workers now. In WWII all these people would be in the military. Now we spend 5 times the money on one person to do the same job. I could understand if it were short-term w/ no job security or benefits, but that's not the case. I'd rather put a lot more of those jobs in uniform.

As for these Techs, I don't understand why the AF does it that way. On the Army guard side we have plenty of full timers. But, ours are ADSW or AGR - meaning active duty in their mil grade.

[mikeylikey]

 

That and  I have the general opinion that anyone associated with the military should be either AD, RES, Guard or Aux. I do not support "civillian" employees of the Defense Dept. one bit. (I hate the merc security groups under contract to the state dept too)

YMMV

^ Agreed, except the people charged with leading the military services and DoD are all Civilians.

[SAR-EMT1]

 

That and  I have the general opinion that anyone associated with the military should be either AD, RES, Guard or Aux. I do not support "civillian" employees of the Defense Dept. one bit. (I hate the merc security groups under contract to the state dept too)

YMMV

^ Agreed, except the people charged with leading the military services and DoD are all Civilians.

If there were a smiley sticking its tongue out at you existed I'd be using it right now



Oh, and in response to what Dennis said... Postal employees ceased being gov't workers about 20 years ago. The USPS is now actually a corp. much like CAP

[DNall]

Whatever, they still get federal retirement points if I'm not mistaken. Know some folks went over there after mil service and cashed in the double pension.

WAIT... disregard that, it's off topic, I wouldn't want to get the thread locked while we're having this all important conversation about some freaking reserve techs whining about some mess that remotely involves uniforms.

[RiverAux]

You know, during WWII the CG turned just about all of its civilian employees into Temporary Reservists and put them in uniform for much the same reason that the AF wants to do it to these folks. 

[DNall]

That's not what the AF is trying to do with these techs. They already are in the military. They are not putting them on active duty, and these people do not want to be put on active duty (take a serious pay cut). I'd argue that the mil should just put them on active duty, or fire them & post the jobs as AGR. It'd save a lot of budget for more meaningful things. It's just a big wasteful shell game played in congress.

[Frenchie]

That and  I have the general opinion that anyone associated with the military should be either AD, RES, Guard or Aux. I do not support "civillian" employees of the Defense Dept. one bit. (I hate the merc security groups under contract to the state dept too)

YMMV

^ Agreed, except the people charged with leading the military services and DoD are all Civilians.

If there were a smiley sticking its tongue out at you existed I'd be using it right now



Oh, and in response to what Dennis said... Postal employees ceased being gov't workers about 20 years ago. The USPS is now actually a corp. much like CAP

The USPS is not a corporation and it's employees are government workers.

[Ned]

That's not what the AF is trying to do with these techs. They already are in the military. They are not putting them on active duty, and these people do not want to be put on active duty (take a serious pay cut). I'd argue that the mil should just put them on active duty, or fire them & post the jobs as AGR. It'd save a lot of budget for more meaningful things. It's just a big wasteful shell game played in congress.

1.  Both the Army Guard and the Reserve have a lot of technicians working as full timers.  They are all required to be M-day folks and go to drills, but their m-f job is as a GS-whatever at a headquarters.  Almost all of them make far less as a GS than they would as AGR and the benefits and retirement are comparatively far worse than AD.

2.  They wear their ACUs while doing their m-f gig.

3.  Simply switching them to AD (AGR, title 32, or straight AD) would bump up against ROPMA and Congressionally imposed AD endstrengths.  It's not that simple.

Ned Lee
Retired Army Guard Guy

[DNall]

1.  Both the Army Guard and the Reserve have a lot of technicians working as full timers.  They are all required to be M-day folks and go to drills, but their m-f job is as a GS-whatever at a headquarters.  Almost all of them make far less as a GS than they would as AGR and the benefits and retirement are comparatively far worse than AD.

EVERYONE I know in a DoD civilian position is making far more in their GS rate than if they were on active duty, and all get full benefit package. The people I know are in starting 40-50k positions, PLUS drill pay.

http://www.fedjobs.com/pay/pay.html
http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/militarypaytables/2008MilitaryPayChart.pdf

The retirement, as I understand it, is based on their M-Day grade plus active years including GS time. Just like if they worked for the post office or any federal agency.

3.  Simply switching them to AD (AGR, title 32, or straight AD) would bump up against ROPMA and Congressionally imposed AD endstrengths.  It's not that simple.

THAT right there is what this is all about. That's what I'm talking about with the shell game.

[Eagle400]

Wow!  CAP should try to recruit all these whining ART's; they would fit in real well with a large percentage of the membership a lot of members!

[Frenchie]

The retirement, as I understand it, is based on their M-Day grade plus active years including GS time. Just like if they worked for the post office or any federal agency.

They get two retirements.  They would get the civil service retirement based on their ART position and a reserve retirement based on their reserve position.

[Cecil DP]

And how does a union issue  pertain to CAP?

[Ned]

EVERYONE I know in a DoD civilian position is making far more in their GS rate than if they were on active duty, and all get full benefit package. The people I know are in starting 40-50k positions, PLUS drill pay.

We probably know different people.  

Let's take a quick look at my buddy, a training technician at state headquarters.

He was hired as a GS 10, and is now at step 5 (I think), so with his Sacramento locality pay he makes a hair under $60 K a year.  Now add in his roughly $10k drill and AT pay we he gets more like $70 a year in total.  And he  gets his civil service retirement at age 60.  He will also get his modest m-day retirement.  Not bad, really.  

Now let's look at the AGR equivalent.  Call him an O4 over 10 years, so he would make base pay of ($5770 x 12) $69,240 yearly.  Now add the untaxed BAS and BAH to that and we are looking at a significant pay differential of many thousands of dollars.

I'm not suggesting that he is on the edge of poverty.  He does OK.  And of course, he clearly understood what he was doing when he took the job.  

But his job has all of the look and feel of AD.  He takes the PT test twice a year.  He faces the same deployments to the sandbox (via his m-day role) as the rest of us.  He can be relocated against his will, albeit just within the state instead of worldwide.


And AD retirement is way better than civilian civil-service retirements in several regards, mostly because of the lower age requirements that allow second careers and additional income.

I guess my point was that the majority of the folks in my circle get significantly less than they would if they were AGR.  It may be different for folks in highly-technical jobs like aircraft maintenance mechanic or in low level jobs like secretary or voucher examiner.

[Dragoon]

I don't think a major is an equivalent to a GS-10.  In the past, I've seen it listed as an equivalent to about a 12.  The pay gets a bit closer if you make that comparison.  But if you're GS-10 buddy is doing 0-4 work, then yeah, someone's getting a bargain.

The deployable GS-10 is certainly in a tougher spot than a non-deployable GS-10.  But it ain't exactly like active duty - one big difference is UCMJ.  There are many things that will put a servicemember in jail that, at most, get a civilian fired or reprimanded rather than Leavenworth.

Also, don't discount the "world wide relocation" issue.  Being told you have to move across the state may suck, but it beats being ordered to move across the world.  It's a lot easier to visit the old neighborhood on the weekends if you're still in the same time zone.


My problem with civilian techs being forced into uniform is twofold:

1.  When acting as techs they aren't really in the military (meaning no UCMJ).  Regardless of what they're wearing, they can't be held to the same rules.  If you want them in uniform, you should have to put them on military orders, like you'd do for any guardsman on extended active duty.  Then UCMJ would apply.  And...you'd have to pay them for the grade on their collar.  Makes some kind of sense to me.

2.  The rank structure.  A tech's GS rating might be wayyyyy out of whack with their military grade.  I've seen Army NG techs who were tank mechanics doing E-6 work during the week but 1st Sergeants on the weekend. 

A better way of doing business, if USAF wanted to push this, would be to put all civlian techs in BDUs clearly labled as "USAF Civilian" during the week.  That's what they do with civilians in theater.

[RiverAux]

Nah, lets make them CAP members and put them in CAP uniforms.  That would give the military appearance without the military rules that apparently is what the AF Reserve wants of these folks.   

[O-Rex]

You know, if you step back for a minute and think about the subject heading for this thread, you'll come to the realization that sometimes even USAF can be a little loopy. 

[DNall]

EVERYONE I know in a DoD civilian position is making far more in their GS rate than if they were on active duty, and all get full benefit package. The people I know are in starting 40-50k positions, PLUS drill pay.

We probably know different people.    ...

Granted, but the majority of folks in these positions, in my experience, are not O-4s. They're E-6 to 8 or W2-3 or O2-3. With a very few O-4s. AGR poses some problems for promotion in your M-Day status as well.

Now I have to admit, I'm not the greatest expert on this topic. Most of the full-time people I know are ADSW/AGR or they are pure civil service employees who are also M-Day. I'm acquainted with a few ARTs, but I really don't know that much about their situation. I'm less of an expert on the retirement aspect, but I don't think anyone is getting massively screwed over.

[mikeylikey]

I think these guys liked not having to salute people or calling Officers Sir.  Now when wearing a uniform they find themselves not able to "slack" as much. 

Face it, they can freaking wear the uniform and just live with it.  Would they rather be called to Active Duty and serve 3 years in Iraq and Afghanistan total.  I did, they can switch with me any day if they want.

Why do these people even have a union?  It is a huge privilege to work for the Federal Govt.

They should be proud to wear the Uniform if their country.  Am I mistaken or are these the guys and girls that took the JOBS advertised on usajobs.gov that stated they had to join the Reserves as part of their eligibility to get the civilian job??  If so, they need to shut their traps or be prepared to go to War.  I say take the whole group and deploy them forward (outside of the safe Airbases in Saudi)

Am I too harsh......you bet I am.  I would love to be able to get a union job (oh wait I am AD.....and Uncle Sam looks down on that)   

[PHall]

I think these guys liked not having to salute people or calling Officers Sir.  Now when wearing a uniform they find themselves not able to "slack" as much. 

Face it, they can freaking wear the uniform and just live with it.  Would they rather be called to Active Duty and serve 3 years in Iraq and Afghanistan total.  I did, they can switch with me any day if they want.

Why do these people even have a union?  It is a huge privilege to work for the Federal Govt.

They should be proud to wear the Uniform if their country.  Am I mistaken or are these the guys and girls that took the JOBS advertised on usajobs.gov that stated they had to join the Reserves as part of their eligibility to get the civilian job??  If so, they need to shut their traps or be prepared to go to War.  I say take the whole group and deploy them forward (outside of the safe Airbases in Saudi)

Am I too harsh......you bet I am.  I would love to be able to get a union job (oh wait I am AD.....and Uncle Sam looks down on that)   

Typical Active Duty "person". The Guard and the Reserve worlds are totally different from the Active Duty, yet somehow you feel qualified to comment (quite rudely) on it.
Please reserve your judgement on the Reserves until you're actually a member and you halfway know what you're talking about.

And I have a small newsflash for you, just about all Federal Civil Service employees are union represented.

[Gunner C]

Am I too harsh......you bet I am.  I would love to be able to get a union job (oh wait I am AD.....and Uncle Sam looks down on that)   

And I have a small newsflash for you, just about all Federal Civil Service employees are union represented.

And those of us who aren't represented wish we were.

You are correct about the Guard being worlds apart from AD.  I've been in all three components and I'll have to tell you, I didn't quite understand all the nuances with the guard techs, etc.  But I do know that, in my experience, it worked.  It's a good program.  The reserve techs is different from the guard stuff, but it does one thing:  allows the govt to have a larger force without busting the law.  If the powers that be feel that they need to put techs into uniform, there may be a good reason.  It may be that there's a discipline problem that affects the program.

It's kinda like CAP - there's some of us who wear uniforms and do the military thing and some of us who don't.  Does it cause problems?  From the hundreds of threads about it, it just might.  Same with the reserves. 

GC

[mikeylikey]

Typical Active Duty "person". The Guard and the Reserve worlds are totally different from the Active Duty, yet somehow you feel qualified to comment (quite rudely) on it.
Please reserve your judgement on the Reserves until you're actually a member and you halfway know what you're talking about.

And I have a small newsflash for you, just about all Federal Civil Service employees are union represented.

Actually, I was in the PA National Guard, I was in an Army Reserve Unit when I was in ROTC (which is RESERVE officer training corps BTW), I was Commissioned a "Reserve Officer"...... I have just happened to stay on Active Duty. 

I was talking about the AF civilians everyone here is talking about....not the Reserves.

I bet I know more than you think I know about the Reserves.  Even if I did not, don't ever tell someone to shut up because they have a differing opinion.  That hints of being a jerk on your part. Don't worry, I don't hate you.....even though you obviously hate me.   

[PHall]

Okay Mikey, a little education for you on the AF Reserve. It is very different from the USAR, but the differences are because of the different missions.

You basically find three type of troops in an AFRC unit.

- Your regular "traditional reservist", i.e. weekender.

- Air Reserve Technitions, full time personnel who are Federal Civil Service during the week who are also Reservists as a condition of their employment. They do the same job in either status. They provide continuity and expertise to the unit.

- Active Guard Reserve, reservist who is on a 3 year AGR tour. They are on Active Duty and receive all of the active pay and benefits. They are also under the UCMJ while they are in AGR status.

In my particular unit, 729th Airlift Squadron, we had a total of about 100 personnel assigned.
Of that number we had about 13 ART's, about 4 or 5 AGR's and 2 civilian employees (Commander's secretary and an order's clerk).
So we had 20 people to keep the place running day to day. The biggest function the ART's did was scheduling.
They had to make sure that everybody stayed current with all of their training requirements. (Reserve flight crews have the same training requirements as Active Duty flyers, just a lot less time to accomplish it in.)

In the maintenance squadrons about a third of the people are ART's.

The big deal about ART's is that the Reserve gets people with years of experience for about 2/3rd less then what an Active Duty member would cost.

[mikeylikey]

^ Thank you......I sit more educated now.

[sarmed1]

you forgot type 4 (or tehcnically 1.5) seemingly unique to the AF reserve....Man Day bums.

Traditional reservists who pretty much find a way to manage a full time or near enough job out of being an AF reservist.  Either serving with their unit of assignemnt on extended man days or RMP's or short tours for other units either in their carreer field or a position not requiring an exact skill set (usually an active duty unit filling in for someone deployed).  These folks are in a drill status similar to annual tour time, draw regular pay, full medical coverage and in some cases regular BAH and BAS, some depending on the length of the tour(s) and or with a waiver (usually over 180 or 270 days depending) are eligible for dependent medical coverage as well.

also well utilized by both active and reserve component units for the cheapness....only pay for days they play basically

mk

[Gunner C]

you forgot type 4 (or tehcnically 1.5) seemingly unique to the AF reserve....Man Day bums.

Traditional reservists who pretty much find a way to manage a full time or near enough job out of being an AF reservist.  Either serving with their unit of assignemnt on extended man days or RMP's or short tours for other units either in their carreer field or a position not requiring an exact skill set (usually an active duty unit filling in for someone deployed).  These folks are in a drill status similar to annual tour time, draw regular pay, full medical coverage and in some cases regular BAH and BAS, some depending on the length of the tour(s) and or with a waiver (usually over 180 or 270 days depending) are eligible for dependent medical coverage as well.

also well utilized by both active and reserve component units for the cheapness....only pay for days they play basically

mk

I'd forgotten about those guys.  I knew a couple of them - you'd run into them from time to time (same ones) doing all sorts of different things.  They had a pretty good time and made a pretty good living.

GC

[PHall]

you forgot type 4 (or tehcnically 1.5) seemingly unique to the AF reserve....Man Day bums.

Traditional reservists who pretty much find a way to manage a full time or near enough job out of being an AF reservist.  Either serving with their unit of assignemnt on extended man days or RMP's or short tours for other units either in their carreer field or a position not requiring an exact skill set (usually an active duty unit filling in for someone deployed).  These folks are in a drill status similar to annual tour time, draw regular pay, full medical coverage and in some cases regular BAH and BAS, some depending on the length of the tour(s) and or with a waiver (usually over 180 or 270 days depending) are eligible for dependent medical coverage as well.

also well utilized by both active and reserve component units for the cheapness....only pay for days they play basically

mk

I used to be a Reserve Bum for a couple of years following Gulf War I. Wasn't that hard to do in a Airlift Unit.
We had enough missions out in the system that we managed to keep about 8 - 10 Flight Engineers gainfully employed.

I looked at it this way.  10 mandays and the rent gets paid. 15 and the credit cards get paid too.
I usually managed to do 20 to 25 days a month.

All of the people in my unit who were on AGR tours were Reserve Bums who finally found a way around the 179 day limit.

[SAR-EMT1]

Are the Medical requirments the same for the Reserve or ANG as AD?

- I got bumped from AFROTC because they cancelled my asthma waiver, could i still make it into the ANG or AFReserve?

[PHall]

Are the Medical requirments the same for the Reserve or ANG as AD?

- I got bumped from AFROTC because they cancelled my asthma waiver, could i still make it into the ANG or AFReserve?

No, the medical requirements are the same.

[SAR-EMT1]

Crap

[smj58501]

(Scratches his head and wonders in amazement how ANY topic on this site with the word "uniform" in it, even if not CAP related, breeds responses like rabbits overdosed on Viagra and fertility drugs)

[DNall]

Are the Medical requirments the same for the Reserve or ANG as AD?

- I got bumped from AFROTC because they cancelled my asthma waiver, could i still make it into the ANG or AFReserve?

The standards are actually the same for all services, at least on that issue, but the enforcement is different. You can come over to Army NG/Res & we'll take care of you. The AF is just shedding people right now is all.

[Eagle400]

The standards are actually the same for all services, at least on that issue, but the enforcement is different. You can come over to Army NG/Res & we'll take care of you. The AF is just shedding people right now is all.

What DNall said.  Also, while I don't encourage people to conceal their medical information, I realize that everyone has got to make their own decisions.

But realize that while the FBI background check is done whether you like it or not, if you give a recruiter the reason to believe that you are not medically disqualified (and are not visibly ill or disabled), they will have no reason to check your medical history.

Also, I was a cadet at a military community college in the South that is one of five such institutions in America that offers the Army ROTC ECP (Early Commissioning Program).  Through this program, you can commission into either the Army Reserve or Army National Guard with an associate's degree.  This comes with the stipulation that you must earn your Bachelor's degree within 3 years from the date of commissioning.  If you don't, you will either be busted to Sergeant or given an Honorable Discharge.

One morning at PT, I was talking with my Platoon Leader about the DODMERB.  He told me that half of all Army DODMERBs do not go through.  Needless to say, I was shocked.  This was in 2005.       

SAR-EMT1, I have to tell you that U.S. MEPCOM is absolutely and unequivocally the biggest and worst bureauracracy in the U.S. Government today.  The process of military entrance processing is an absolute nightmare.  They will allow a felon to enlist, but an officer candidate cannot commission if he has anxiety and/or depression.  I have a BIG problem with that.

U.S. MEPCOM has succeeded in making military entrance processing hypocritical, unjust, and reprehensible.  Because of this, U.S. MEPCOM is doing a huge disservice to the American people.  Think of how many folks (especially young folks), who are not criminals, that have wanted nothing else in life but to serve in the military but couldn't due to medical disqualification.  Is the inequality created by U.S. MEPCOM officials doing these people justice?  I don't think so.   

I can understand disqualifying people for things like AIDS and cancer, but anxiety and depression?  Give me a break!  If the applicant has a medical problem that he or she can fix, then it should NOT be disqualifyable. 

And to those of you who think anxiety cannot be fixed, I suggest you read the statistics about accupuncture and how it has helped eliminate anxiety in thousands (if not millions) of patients.  Not only is it effective, but it also requires no medication whatsoever.

By the way, it is a fact that only 1% of the American population is medically qualified to enlist or commission.  If everybody was honest and upfront with their recruiters about their medical history, the size of the military (in time) would decrease significantly.  If that were to happen, and the medical standards were to remain the same as they are now, then we could kiss the chance of winning the Global War on Terror goodbye.

So you are faced with a decision, SAR-EMT1, and you will have to make that decision sooner or later.  Whatever you choose to do, I wish you good luck and much success.  If you have any questions, you can always PM me.   

[mikeylikey]

I can understand disqualifying people for things like AIDS and cancer, but anxiety and depression?  Give me a break!  If the applicant has a medical problem that he or she can fix, then it should NOT be disqualifyable. 

Most cancer is highly curable these days.  In fact once cured of many cancers for a certain amount of time (usually five years) you are free to enlist or Commission.  Other cancers are not even a bar to enlistment any more.  Don't lump Cancer in with Aids.  The two are not even close to being similar. 

I also have to disagree with MEPCOM and DODMERB not doing a good job.  They do an excellent job of screening those that would not be able to succeed in the military.  That may sound harsh, but the military is not for all people and will never be EO.

As far as people with anxiety, depression.....I have to agree with them not being allowed to serve.  That is one less thing I (as a Commander) need to worry about.  Sure your psychotropic and mood altering neurotransmitter inhibitors and blockers can correct the apparent symptoms but the underlying cause and actual imbalance is still present.  What would happen if you did not have access to your drugs?  I would not only loose a man to medical incapacitation, but you just became a risk to yourself and everyone around you.

Please don't hint to anyone that they should withhold their medical conditions before enlisting.  Everything has a way of becoming apparent.  I will push for an article 32 investigation and for an eventual dishonorable discharge of anyone that did not disclose medically relevant information when they enlisted.  You won't get a medical discharge from the services, you will get a dishonorable discharge.  That sir, will follow you the rest of your life.

CCSE.....you seem bitter that you can't serve, and your bitterness is directed at the wrong group. 

SAR-EMT1 I suggest you take your case to the DODMERB, there is an appeals process that should have been presented to you when your waiver was revoked.  This time, go to another Service other than the Air Force and have them fight your battle for you.  Good luck.         

[Eagle400]

Please don't hint to anyone that they should withhold their medical conditions before enlisting.  Everything has a way of becoming apparent.  I will push for an article 32 investigation and for an eventual dishonorable discharge of anyone that did not disclose medically relevant information when they enlisted.  You won't get a medical discharge from the services, you will get a dishonorable discharge.  That sir, will follow you the rest of your life.

I did not hint to anyone that they should conceal medical information in the process of enlistment.  This is what I said:

Also, while I don't encourage people to conceal their medical information, I realize that everyone has got to make their own decisions.

But realize that while the FBI background check is done whether you like it or not, if you give a recruiter the reason to believe that you are not medically disqualified (and are not visibly ill or disabled), they will have no reason to check your medical history.

I gave SAR-EMT1 some info, and he can do whatever he wants.  I don't even know him outside of CAPTalk (which basically means I know very, very, very little about him).

CCSE.....you seem bitter that you can't serve, and your bitterness is directed at the wrong group.

Uh, where did I say I was medically disqualified?

What I am bitter about is the fact that only 1% of the American population is medically qualified to enlist or commission.  If that trend remains the same, America will lose the Global War on Terror.

[mikeylikey]

What I am bitter about is the fact that only 1% of the American population is medically qualified to enlist or commission.  If that trend remains the same, America will lose the Global War on Terror.

In another thread a few months ago I think you said you were denied enlistment because you took antidepressants (that was you, right.....I don't want to go back and look through them all). 

Where are you getting this 1% being medically qualified to enlist or commission? 

Even if it is one percent....that is more than enough people to wage war.  Research World War Two.....and report back on exactly how many people served in the Armed Forces between 1940 and 1946.  It was not even 1%.  Our military does not even compare in size to what it was during the peak of the War.   

[MIKE]

Topic.

[DNall]

It's actually closer to 30% are medically qualified to enlist. Of that group 2/3rds have other issues (can't pass ASVAB, legal problems, can't clear security, failure to adapt - behavioral problems, etc). So, less than 10% of the population in the target age group are eligible to enlist, about 1.5% of that group choose to do so.

When we book a basic training seat it costs the state $76,000 for that 9wk course. If you refuse to ship, fail at reception, or can't make it thru training for whatever reason, we still have to pay that full amount. Hell, if you rebook another date within 60days of ship, we have to pay for both slots. That's just basic, not even counting AIT, which you can imagine is rather expensive for things like aviation mechanic. Plus, we're going to give you a fat bonus when you get back. That's a lot invested just to make one private. It's a ton more for officers, or God forbid a pilot. MEPS does an efficient job making sure we don't make bad investments.

I do think they do a pretty good job with a tough mission. They efficiently screen thousands of people every year at every location. Where people run into problems is just the dramatic attitude shift. You spend lots of time with a recruiter who's whole purpose in life is to get you in the service. They're very friendly/personable & work with you to make your joint goal happen. MEPS isn't on your side. They're on the service's side. It's their job to scrutinize you with a relatively simple physical & keep us from making bad investments.

[RogueLeader]

At MEPS, everyone I processed with lost at least one inch from ALL other medical facilities.  BUT I am still over the minimum weight standards by 7 pounds.