Global War On Terrorism Civilian Medal

[Hawk200]

I have argued in many threads here that CAP does need to resolve this discrepancy in the regulations, and on that we can agree. 

Yes, they do, big time. The thing is that these two pubs are covering two differing concepts. 39-1 says you can wear it when properly awarded. 39-3 states that it's only considered properly awarded if in performance of military service. 39-1 doesn't cover the criteria to receive it, only how to wear it. That's the difference between them.

Personally, I think its a crappy policy. I don't care if you got it sweeping floors at a military installation, if the military gives you a dec, you should be wearing it. Right now, CAP could use all the kudos of those kinds that we can get. It probably improves our image a good bit.

[RiverAux]

CAP can't govern how its members receive awards from other services.  All it can say is which ones can be worn on a CAP uniform.  If the Army wants to give me some crazy civilian award thats their right.  CAP can decide whether or not I can wear it on the CAP uniform.

That being said, I think the wording in 39-1 is the most appropriate.  Why should CAP care if the award was earned as a soldier or as a civilian so long as it was awarded by competent military authority?  And, I see we agree on that as well. 

[Hawk200]

CAP can't govern how its members receive awards from other services.  All it can say is which ones can be worn on a CAP uniform.  If the Army wants to give me some crazy civilian award thats their right.  CAP can decide whether or not I can wear it on the CAP uniform.

That's the nature of 39-3. It determines the criteria to receive it. Wear is a different principle. That reg has nothing to do with how it's worn, or even if it's worn.

Why should CAP care if the award was earned as a soldier or as a civilian so long as it was awarded by competent military authority?  And, I see we agree on that as well. 

Agreed. That's why we need to fix the reg.

There is one other stipulation as well that is rather vague, and that's the "authorized for wear on an Air Force uniform". It's a nasty little catchall. This civilian medal may not be considered acceptable for such wear.

If that is the case, we really don't have any recourse. But if the Air Force does actually permit, CAP shouldn't be bothering with the "in the performance of military service".

[JohnKachenmeister]

Flame me if you want.  I really don't care.

But, the idea that CAP wartime service folks, in combat, who were awarded the Air Medal then cannot wear it on the uniform that they wore it on at the time it was earned is simply... STUPID!

Assume that the AF has called CAP to perform an Air Force mission in support of Homeland Defense, and assume that the performance of CAP members was such that the AF determined that a decoration was warranted, then tell the CAP members that they cannot wear the AF decoration is STUPID!

The definition of a dysfunctional bureaucracy is an organization where smart people do stupid things for good reasons.

If someone wrote a regulation to try to prevent CAP members from wearing awards earned  in CAP service but awarded by the military, then the person who wrote that stupid regulation is, himself (or herself), STUPID!

If the wording of a regulation is so poor that it can be interpreted in a stupid way, then change the regulation as soon as such stupidity is identified.  Then, don't do stupid things until it can be changed.

My point, if you are serving in uniform and as an integral part of the AF, and the AF gives you an award, you wear it.  CAP is, on an AFAM, and by law, a part of the Air Force.

AAFES is not.  Civil Servants are, but come under a different law. 

[Wizard]

An Air Force Civilian along with 11 other civilians were just awarded the first GWOT-C medal.  Anyone hear of this, or have any more info?  All they had was her picture on AF Portal, and the line "awarded to civilian employees who provide direct support to military operations. 

Does CAP do that?  I know of instances where CAP members provided direct support to military operations in support of the War on Terror. 

Ok...i did some actual digging on this since as an AF civilian; i thought i might be eligible for the GWOT Service ribbon....The civilian medal is only awarded for participation where the expeditionary medal would be warranted:

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/CivilianMedalsDecor/GWOTCivilianServiceMedal.htm


seems like the criteria is very clear in that to be awarded the Medal you must be:

1.  a civilian employees of the Department of Defense
2.  who on or after September 11, 2001, to a date to be determined
3.  participate abroad in direct support of a U.S. military GWOT operation in a location designated as a combat zone.
4.   Under no circumstances are personnel in the United States eligible for the medal.

hope this helps..

--wiz

[Pylon]

An Air Force Civilian along with 11 other civilians were just awarded the first GWOT-C medal.  Anyone hear of this, or have any more info?  All they had was her picture on AF Portal, and the line "awarded to civilian employees who provide direct support to military operations. 

Does CAP do that?  I know of instances where CAP members provided direct support to military operations in support of the War on Terror. 

Ok...i did some actual digging on this since as an AF civilian; i thought i might be eligible for the GWOT Service ribbon....The civilian medal is only awarded for participation where the expeditionary medal would be warranted:

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/CivilianMedalsDecor/GWOTCivilianServiceMedal.htm


seems like the criteria is very clear in that to be awarded the Medal you must be:

1.  a civilian employees of the Department of Defense
2.  who on or after September 11, 2001, to a date to be determined
3.  participate abroad in direct support of a U.S. military GWOT operation in a location designated as a combat zone.
4.   Under no circumstances are personnel in the United States eligible for the medal.

hope this helps..

--wiz

Well at least DOD civilians putting their necks on the line downrange are also getting a small piece of tin for their service.  Good for them! 

[mikeylikey]

+1

[Hawk200]

Flame me if you want.  I really don't care.

If you get flamed, I'll be right there with you. We'll roast hot dogs or something....

But, the idea that CAP wartime service folks, in combat, who were awarded the Air Medal then cannot wear it on the uniform that they wore it on at the time it was earned is simply... STUPID!

Assume that the AF has called CAP to perform an Air Force mission in support of Homeland Defense, and assume that the performance of CAP members was such that the AF determined that a decoration was warranted, then tell the CAP members that they cannot wear the AF decoration is STUPID!

The definition of a dysfunctional bureaucracy is an organization where smart people do stupid things for good reasons.

If someone wrote a regulation to try to prevent CAP members from wearing awards earned  in CAP service but awarded by the military, then the person who wrote that stupid regulation is, himself (or herself), STUPID!

If the wording of a regulation is so poor that it can be interpreted in a stupid way, then change the regulation as soon as such stupidity is identified.  Then, don't do stupid things until it can be changed.

My point, if you are serving in uniform and as an integral part of the AF, and the AF gives you an award, you wear it.  CAP is, on an AFAM, and by law, a part of the Air Force.

AAFES is not.  Civil Servants are, but come under a different law. 

Just for my own clarification, John, I'm getting the idea that you think this is stupid? 

[DNall]

The US Air Force is generally considered by most informed people to be an armed service of the US.

[Gunner C]

^^^

[SAR-EMT1]

OK, FLAME ON:

I KNOW some of you dedicated "We're only a civilian corporation" guys will get your panties in a bunch over this post, but I cannot resist.

CAP, when activated in a Federal role is, BY LAW, acting as an "Auxiliary of the United States Air Force."  For all purposes, again by law, CAP is, as an Auxiliary of the USAF, an "Instrumentality of the United States."

Therefore, when activated into Federal service, I contend that CAP is, in law and in fact, a part of the United States Air Force. 

The US Air Force is generally considered by most informed people to be an armed service of the US.  Service in an Auxiliary of that same US Air Force, performing a mission designated by the President for the US Air Force funded and supervised by the US Air Force, is "Service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces..." and therefore a medal or award given by competent military authority for such service meets the criteria set in CAPR 39-3, Section A, Paragraph 3b.

I'm not a lawyer, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

It's not just the "civilian corporation" guys whose panties will likely get in a bunch.  To suggest that being on a CAP AFAM means we are technically "service performed in...the Armed Forces" is pretty far fetched.  I never thought anybody would argue that.

Well I, for one, always assumed that "service performed in...the Armed Forces" was exactly what being on an AFAM was.

[SARMedTech]

Flame me if you want.  I really don't care.

But, the idea that CAP wartime service folks, in combat, who were awarded the Air Medal then cannot wear it on the uniform that they wore it on at the time it was earned is simply... STUPID!

Assume that the AF has called CAP to perform an Air Force mission in support of Homeland Defense, and assume that the performance of CAP members was such that the AF determined that a decoration was warranted, then tell the CAP members that they cannot wear the AF decoration is STUPID!

The definition of a dysfunctional bureaucracy is an organization where smart people do stupid things for good reasons.

If someone wrote a regulation to try to prevent CAP members from wearing awards earned  in CAP service but awarded by the military, then the person who wrote that stupid regulation is, himself (or herself), STUPID!

If the wording of a regulation is so poor that it can be interpreted in a stupid way, then change the regulation as soon as such stupidity is identified.  Then, don't do stupid things until it can be changed.

My point, if you are serving in uniform and as an integral part of the AF, and the AF gives you an award, you wear it.  CAP is, on an AFAM, and by law, a part of the Air Force.

AAFES is not.  Civil Servants are, but come under a different law. 

Bravo! Major.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

So does anyone want to make a case for the National Defense Service Medal, then?

[Short Field]

That one is really easy to earn.

Just drop the "civilian auxillary" to the USAF.   

[SAR-EMT1]

Well, since every soldier sailor and airman recieves just for signing on the dotted line these days I'd say it should be easy. Te hard part is convincing the Air Force to give a crap.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, this is why im dual hatted with the
CG Aux - they care.... With CAP/USAF I feel the same as I do at work when Im around PD and Fire: a bastard stepchild.
Im not trying to be rude, and Im not saying that Im quitting CAP anytime soon. Quite the opposite. It would just be nice if we got a bigger nod from our parent service. Allowing us to qualify for USAF awards/medals/ribbons is a start.

[Short Field]

Well, since every soldier sailor and airman recieves just for signing on the dotted line these days I'd say it should be easy.

It is easy, just do what they do --- sign on the dotted line.      That is how you drop the "civilian auxiliary" part.

[Wizard]

So does anyone want to make a case for the National Defense Service Medal, then?

I think a case could be made for the NDSM if the member was augmenting operations at an existing base similiar to the VSAF program.  If a member is in support for 60 days cumulatively and/or an AFAM mission for 60 days cumulatively...you could argue it i suppose.

[JayT]

Well, since every soldier sailor and airman recieves just for signing on the dotted line these days I'd say it should be easy. Te hard part is convincing the Air Force to give a crap.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, this is why im dual hatted with the
CG Aux - they care.... With CAP/USAF I feel the same as I do at work when Im around PD and Fire: a bastard stepchild.
Im not trying to be rude, and Im not saying that Im quitting CAP anytime soon. Quite the opposite. It would just be nice if we got a bigger nod from our parent service. Allowing us to qualify for USAF awards/medals/ribbons is a start.

I find that arguement hard to follow. Do you really need USAF medals pinned to your jacket that badly?

A good nod from our parent service would be more money, more oversight, better relationships overall with base and unit commanders, etc etc etc.

[RogueLeader]

Do you really need USAF medals pinned to your jacket that badly?

It all depends on how you feel appreciated.  Some like a peice of tin, and some string.  Some like a peice of paper.  Some like a pat on the back, or public praise.  Some like any combonation of both.

Just because you do not like on meathod of reward or it doesn't work for you. that does not mean that it doesn't work for others.

[JayT]

Do you really need USAF medals pinned to your jacket that badly?

It all depends on how you feel appreciated.  Some like a peice of tin, and some string.  Some like a peice of paper.  Some like a pat on the back, or public praise.  Some like any combonation of both.

Just because you do not like on meathod of reward or it doesn't work for you. that does not mean that it doesn't work for others.

It just seems like everything something like this comes up, ten people dive on it with ancedotes from World War II, half hearted comparisons to the Coast Guard Auxiliary, and the such.