Awards not in 39-1 6-5

[Abn90]

I did not find the US Army parachutist badge (jump wings) listed in CAPM 39-1, Chapter 6-B, Table 6-5 even though the table does show the air assault & pathfinder badges (4) and the parachute rigger badge (5).

Does anyone know if the jump wings are authorized for senior members on the USAF-style uniform?

[James Shaw]

I believe that if you have been duly awarded or have earned them you should be able to wear them. You have to have proof though.

[SarDragon]

Is wear allowed on regular AF uniforms?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yes

[JohnKachenmeister]

39-1 needs work.  The Army Combat Infantry Badge and Combat Medical Badge are both authorized, but the Combat Action Badge is not listed.

Why don't you add this under the thread worked elsewhere on this board about ambiguities in 39-1?

[Abn90]

I believe that if you have been duly awarded or have earned them you should be able to wear them. You have to have proof though.

Would the DD-214 count as proof?

[Abn90]

Is wear allowed on regular AF uniforms?

It's been a few years, but some Air Force PJ's I knew wore them.

[PhoenixRisen]

Would the DD-214 count as proof?

That's what every former military person in my squadron (my father included) used to prove their awards for wear on the uniform.  It's an official document, and it's got 'em listed.  Why wouldn't it count?

FYI - I know of many a person within CAWG who wear jump wings on their CAP uniforms (one of said people is currently in the Air Force).

[SJFedor]

39-1 needs work.  The Army Combat Infantry Badge and Combat Medical Badge are both authorized, but the Combat Action Badge is not listed.

Why don't you add this under the thread worked elsewhere on this board about ambiguities in 39-1?

CAB is a recent invention of the Army. I believe it just came to being in the past year or two. 39-1 needs revision every 6 months, if not from our changes, from the other services' changes.

[SarDragon]

Is wear allowed on regular AF uniforms?

Yes

Then according to the knowledge that I have, it is allowed on the CAP uniform.

YMMV.

[Fifinella]

Can you wear Army badges on USAF or CAP uniforms?  Yes.  See:

CAPM 39-1 Section B 6-7. US Military Badges.  CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies.  The military badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5.  Before wearing any badge not listed in this table, contact National Headquarters/LMM for clarification.  US Military badges are not authorized for wear on any of the CAP distinctive uniforms.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/M39_1_chap_6_sec_B.pdf

In my opinion, where the confusion comes in about jump wings is (IMO) when the CAPM was written, I believe someone assumed jump wings were included in the "US military aeronautical badges" category.  However, USAF regs clearly state they are not in this category.  (Why?  Beats me.  Someone must have been jealous.  ) 

I agree, this needs to be addressed in the re-write, and the Table amended to specifically include parachutist badges.

Meantime, I wear mine, and if anyone has a problem with that, they can come and get them.  "Molon Lave"

"Molon lave" (Μολών λαβέ, Come and take them) is found in Plutarch's Apophthegmata Laconica.
Πάλιν δε του Ξέρξου γράψαντος "πέμψον τα όπλα", αντέγραψε "μολών λαβέ".

....In ancient Greece, the Spartan General Leonidas was charged with guarding a mountain pass with just 300 men to delay the invading million man Persian army. When the Persian leader Xerxes offered to spare his men if they gave up their arms, Leonidas replied "Molon Lave", or "Come and get them."...

[brasda91]

They were listed in the previous edition.  It may have been an honest mistake.

[Gunner C]

IMO a major problem in the 39-1 is the lack of an order of precedence for badges.  There is a "hint" of one, but it's not accurate and flies in the face of military tradition.  For instance, the CIB is regarded as the highest military badge (excepting chaplain stuff) but the 39-1 hints that it is worn below aviation badges.  That would also hint that it is worn below jump wings not to mention CAP wings.  This is why most former military with a CIB/CMB don't wear theirs - it's rather silly to think that a private pilot's experience trumps close combat with an opposing armed military force.

What's the rationale behind the CIB being the highest?  The entire military (minus the strategic forces) is built around the infantryman engaging the enemy, gaining and holding ground. 

GC

[TankerT]

In my opinion, where the confusion comes in about jump wings is (IMO) when the CAPM was written, I believe someone assumed jump wings were included in the "US military aeronautical badges" category.  However, USAF regs clearly state they are not in this category.  (Why?  Beats me.  Someone must have been jealous.  ) 

Actually, up until recently a few years ago, several AFIs classified the parachutist badge as an aeronautical badge.  The AFIs then followed up by stating that while the parachutist badge was an aeronautical badge, the personnel were not considered aeronautically "rated" or something of the like. 

Over the last few years, this has been changed to eliminate all references to the badge as one in the aeronautical classification.  (In fact, they went so far as to specifically mention in some AFIs that it is NOT classified as one.)

[JayT]

IMO a major problem in the 39-1 is the lack of an order of precedence for badges.  There is a "hint" of one, but it's not accurate and flies in the face of military tradition.  For instance, the CIB is regarded as the highest military badge (excepting chaplain stuff) but the 39-1 hints that it is worn below aviation badges.  That would also hint that it is worn below jump wings not to mention CAP wings.  This is why most former military with a CIB/CMB don't wear theirs - it's rather silly to think that a private pilot's experience trumps close combat with an opposing armed military force.

What's the rationale behind the CIB being the highest?  The entire military (minus the strategic forces) is built around the infantryman engaging the enemy, gaining and holding ground. 

GC

Well, that's because aviation badges trump everything except chaplain stuff. That's a carry over from the same USAF traditions and order of precedence.

I'm sure that when the Air Force and CAP got together to adopt the AF D&A manual, they didn't think about excluding the CIB, CAB, and CMB. After all, how many Airmen have any of the above?

[TankerT]

IMO a major problem in the 39-1 is the lack of an order of precedence for badges.  There is a "hint" of one, but it's not accurate and flies in the face of military tradition.  For instance, the CIB is regarded as the highest military badge (excepting chaplain stuff) but the 39-1 hints that it is worn below aviation badges.  That would also hint that it is worn below jump wings not to mention CAP wings.  This is why most former military with a CIB/CMB don't wear theirs - it's rather silly to think that a private pilot's experience trumps close combat with an opposing armed military force.

What's the rationale behind the CIB being the highest?  The entire military (minus the strategic forces) is built around the infantryman engaging the enemy, gaining and holding ground. 

GC

The CIB has precedence for the Army, and Army only over all other sill badges.  (Except chaplain.)

You are referring to an Army philosophy of combat operations.  In the Army, many of their docterines do focus on the infantry holding ground.   (Thus they have the CIB as a Category/Group 1 badge, which takes precedence over the Category/Group 3 badges, which contain the aviation related.)

Other services do not award a CIB.  The Air Force allows it's wear, but it views (for obvious reasons) that aviation related badges are of higher precedence.

Thus, following the USAF traditions, as we often do, aviation badges take precedence over the CIB. 

And, FYI - the entire military is not built around the infantryman engaging the enemy, gaining and holding ground.  History (even recent times) shows that we have had many wars fought where land warfare was irrelevant.

[DNall]

I believe that if you have been duly awarded or have earned them you should be able to wear them. You have to have proof though.

uhh, no! It's only mil badges/decs/etc that are currently auth on the AF uniform by AF reg.

There's a couple dif interpretations that can be used & it's case by case (meaning badges, not indivs) at NHQ. That concerns the AF reg statement of can wear certain army badges/patches when attached & on perm duty with Army units. That is indeed a circumstance where a CIB would be authorized on an AF uniform, but the CAP member in their CAP status is not attached or on perm duty with an Army unit. Likewise, the AF fire protection & SF badges are not auth in CAP because the member is not in their CAP status serving in those capacities. This issue needs clarification from AF, but CAP isn't pushing for it cause the inevitable would cause a lot of people to remove badges they otherwise earned & are rightfully proud of.

Jump wings ARE authorized. They are not listed there because they are not another service badge (like a CIB for instance). They are also awarded in the AF under a dif name, so are considered an AF badge.

[JohnKachenmeister]

39-1 needs work.  The Army Combat Infantry Badge and Combat Medical Badge are both authorized, but the Combat Action Badge is not listed.

Why don't you add this under the thread worked elsewhere on this board about ambiguities in 39-1?

CAB is a recent invention of the Army. I believe it just came to being in the past year or two. 39-1 needs revision every 6 months, if not from our changes, from the other services' changes.

It has been around longer than that.  I think it was authorized shortly after the First Guf War.

[mikeylikey]

I think I read that badges from other services (specifically the Army) are not allowed to be worn on the new ABU's? 

Hope thats not true.

[JayT]

39-1 needs work.  The Army Combat Infantry Badge and Combat Medical Badge are both authorized, but the Combat Action Badge is not listed.

Why don't you add this under the thread worked elsewhere on this board about ambiguities in 39-1?

CAB is a recent invention of the Army. I believe it just came to being in the past year or two. 39-1 needs revision every 6 months, if not from our changes, from the other services' changes.

It has been around longer than that.  I think it was authorized shortly after the First Guf War.

May 2, 2005, first awarded June 29, 2005.

[Abn90]

Just heard back from NHQ:  CAPM 39-1 does not mention the jump wings specifically because it considers them Aeronautical Badges, as per Table 6-5 #1.  It was explained that this was due to AFI 11-402, which at the time of writing, included the USAF's issuance of the jump wings as an Aeronautical Badge.

It was further explained that this should be remedied in the new CAPM, once published, but that jump wings were, indeed, authorized for wear.

So, there it is.  Thanks to all who responded!

[floridacyclist]

That's good to know....hoping to have a good reason to buy a set of blue and white jump wings for my 18yo...he should find out soon if he was selected or not

[Dragoon]

I wish him luck.  Tell him to start working on his pull-ups now.  And keep his feet and knees together!

[Fifinella]

Just heard back from NHQ:  CAPM 39-1 does not mention the jump wings specifically because it considers them Aeronautical Badges, as per Table 6-5 #1.  It was explained that this was due to AFI 11-402, which at the time of writing, included the USAF's issuance of the jump wings as an Aeronautical Badge.

It was further explained that this should be remedied in the new CAPM, once published, but that jump wings were, indeed, authorized for wear.

So, there it is.  Thanks to all who responded!

Ah!  Now it all makes sense.  Thanks for the info.  Much appreciated.

[tkelley004]

39-1 needs work.  The Army Combat Infantry Badge and Combat Medical Badge are both authorized, but the Combat Action Badge is not listed.

Why don't you add this under the thread worked elsewhere on this board about ambiguities in 39-1?

CAB is a recent invention of the Army. I believe it just came to being in the past year or two. 39-1 needs revision every 6 months, if not from our changes, from the other services' changes.

I would not count on seeing the CAB authorized on the Air Force uniform. Active Duty Air Force folks, serving with the Army have been awarded them by the Army and told "Sorry, can't wear it, not authorized on the Air Force uniform....."

[Gunner C]

IMO a major problem in the 39-1 is the lack of an order of precedence for badges.  There is a "hint" of one, but it's not accurate and flies in the face of military tradition.  For instance, the CIB is regarded as the highest military badge (excepting chaplain stuff) but the 39-1 hints that it is worn below aviation badges.  That would also hint that it is worn below jump wings not to mention CAP wings.  This is why most former military with a CIB/CMB don't wear theirs - it's rather silly to think that a private pilot's experience trumps close combat with an opposing armed military force.

What's the rationale behind the CIB being the highest?  The entire military (minus the strategic forces) is built around the infantryman engaging the enemy, gaining and holding ground. 

GC

The CIB has precedence for the Army, and Army only over all other sill badges.  (Except chaplain.)

You are referring to an Army philosophy of combat operations.  In the Army, many of their docterines do focus on the infantry holding ground.   (Thus they have the CIB as a Category/Group 1 badge, which takes precedence over the Category/Group 3 badges, which contain the aviation related.)

Other services do not award a CIB.  The Air Force allows it's wear, but it views (for obvious reasons) that aviation related badges are of higher precedence.

Thus, following the USAF traditions, as we often do, aviation badges take precedence over the CIB. 

And, FYI - the entire military is not built around the infantryman engaging the enemy, gaining and holding ground.  History (even recent times) shows that we have had many wars fought where land warfare was irrelevant.

You should take Air Command and Staff College or the Air War College.  The senior service schools would beg to differ.  In the 1960s I ran into two officers who were navigators with CIBs.  They had been in the infantry in WW2 and came over to the Air Force as aviation cadets during Korea.  They wore their CIBs above their Nav wings.  I asked them about the order (I was a cadet and was always noticing things like this).  They told me what I said above.  Back in those days, there were a lot more folks who had been enlisted in one service and became officers in another.  Times change.

Come to think of it, I met an AF capt who had been a CWO2 in the Army.  He was a helo pilot, went over to the AF and became a BUFF pilot.  When he wanted to piss off the AF, he'd wear his Army wings. 

GC

[Gunner C]

Just heard back from NHQ:  CAPM 39-1 does not mention the jump wings specifically because it considers them Aeronautical Badges, as per Table 6-5 #1.  It was explained that this was due to AFI 11-402, which at the time of writing, included the USAF's issuance of the jump wings as an Aeronautical Badge.

It was further explained that this should be remedied in the new CAPM, once published, but that jump wings were, indeed, authorized for wear.

So, there it is.  Thanks to all who responded!

So jump wings, on a CAP uniform, are worn above a CIB?  Wierd. 

GC

[afgeo4]

I think I read that badges from other services (specifically the Army) are not allowed to be worn on the new ABU's? 

Hope thats not true.

Sorry, it is true. Currently only USAF badges are authorized for wear on the ABU. However, the parachutist badge is authorized as it is not an Army badge, but a military one. The badge is issued to most combat airmen including PJs, TCCs, TACPs, CWs and now many Red Horse CEs and SFs are getting them (if they go to airborne school of course).  All three levels of the parachutist badge are authorized as well as the HALO badge. No clue on the scuba diver one.

[mikeylikey]

^ Got it, but the Army institute of heraldry says the parachutist badge is wholly an Army device.  I have no problem sharing it with the AF, as many AF peeps were some of the founders of the badge back in old WW2. 

I am just puzzled why things like the ranger tab and other "Army" badges are not allowed on the AF uniform.  I always thought the AF should bring back SSI for individuals assigned to combat.  I mean they are reinventing a uniform with the reasoning being "historical this and that", well the badges and patches are just as historical as the cut of the jacket, right?!?!

[brasda91]

I remember back several years ago, a SM wearing his "Ranger" tab above his wing patch.  He said he could wear it just the same as my CIB and jump wings.

[mikeylikey]

^ Yeah, that I am sure is a no-go.  The AF doesn't even wear earned Ranger Tabs.  Now, that doesn't mean CAP shouldn't (as we are not the AF).  It would show who really is a ranger and who really "went to Hawk MTN".

[jb512]

39-1 needs work.  The Army Combat Infantry Badge and Combat Medical Badge are both authorized, but the Combat Action Badge is not listed.

Why don't you add this under the thread worked elsewhere on this board about ambiguities in 39-1?

CAB is a recent invention of the Army. I believe it just came to being in the past year or two. 39-1 needs revision every 6 months, if not from our changes, from the other services' changes.

I would not count on seeing the CAB authorized on the Air Force uniform. Active Duty Air Force folks, serving with the Army have been awarded them by the Army and told "Sorry, can't wear it, not authorized on the Air Force uniform....."

That would kinda make sense, because the AF created a medal equivalent to the CAB:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123048140

[jb512]

I think I see an AF Lieutenant with a ranger tab on his uniform......  Download the full image:

http://www.kirtland.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041597

I say if it's authorized for an AF uniform, then it should be authorized for AF uniforms worn as CAP uniforms.

[TankerT]

You should take Air Command and Staff College or the Air War College.  The senior service schools would beg to differ. 

BTDT

[mikeylikey]

I think I see an AF Lieutenant with a ranger tab on his uniform......  Download the full image:

http://www.kirtland.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041597

I say if it's authorized for an AF uniform, then it should be authorized for AF uniforms worn as CAP uniforms.

Ya I think he is doing what he shouldn't be doing.  I may be way off though, so please AF types, chime in anytime!  Stonewall??  Anyone???

[DNall]

When perm assigned & attached to Army units they can wear army stuff, like tabs, badges, etc. As in TACP. When assigned back to AF unit or at an AF school for more than 180 days then back to the standard AF rules. Doubtful this LT is in such a position.

[arajca]

I think it's interesting that the same folks who critize others for not following regs to the letter, sometimes unintentially, will knowingly violate CAPM 39-1 because "it should be authorized" or "I earned it". Following their logic, I should wear my military awards on my corporate uniforms since I earned them, right?

[mikeylikey]

I think it's interesting that the same folks who critize others for not following regs to the letter, sometimes unintentially, will knowingly violate CAPM 39-1 because "it should be authorized" or "I earned it". Following their logic, I should wear my military awards on my corporate uniforms since I earned them, right?

That is a hotbed on debate.  While the corporates are specificaly not a military uniform (reasoning used by NHQ, not me) Federal LAw states that awards and ribbons can be worn on such civilian dress at the prior-service members expense. 

[JayT]

I think that the best thing would CAP to have conformed to the Air Force standards for the location of Wing and Squadron patches for the BDU's, which could have let our guys with prior service wear their Army/Navy/whatever bling (because that's critically important to our operations in CAP.)

But since the Air Force is going over to the ABU, I say we get ride of all wing patches, the American flag patch, the ES patch, NCSA patches, everything except grade insignia, nametape, and service tape.

[Trung Si Ma]

I remember back several years ago, a SM wearing his "Ranger" tab above his wing patch.  He said he could wear it just the same as my CIB and jump wings.

We did that in MIWG back in the 70's.  Those of us who were active duty / reserve jumpers also wore a blue and white AIRBORNE tab over the wing patch.   Looked good, but was never legal.  Back then, my CAP uniform looked an awful lot like my Army one except one had subdued insignia and the other one looked like the Sunday paper.

[mikeylikey]

I think that the best thing would CAP to have conformed to the Air Force standards for the location of Wing and Squadron patches for the BDU's, which could have let our guys with prior service wear their Army/Navy/whatever bling (because that's critically important to our operations in CAP.)

But since the Air Force is going over to the ABU, I say we get ride of all wing patches, the American flag patch, the ES patch, NCSA patches, everything except grade insignia, nametape, and service tape.

Agreed!  I have made that same comment multiple times.  Get rid of everything so that we mirror the AF uniform.  Especially since Wing Kings do not know how to NOT do whatever they want, even against specific instructions on how not to do something.  Reference Hawk Mountain Everything bling.  NHQ says you can wear the NCSA patch in a very specific spot, Wing Commanders say, "no, wear it here and add All this other junk to make you better than everyone else".  Not to make this about Hawk MTN, but that is one of the more easily recognizable stupid uniform issues we have going for our organization at the moment!

[arajca]

But since the Air Force is going over to the ABU, I say we get ride of all wing patches, the American flag patch, the ES patch, NCSA patches, everything except grade insignia, nametape, and service tape.

No wings or badges? The AF wears those.

[mikeylikey]

^ He meant your Wing's Patch I assume.....

[arajca]

^ He meant your Wing's Patch I assume.....

I don't think so -

But since the Air Force is going over to the ABU, I say we get ride of all wing patches, the American flag patch, the ES patch, NCSA patches, everything except grade insignia, nametape, and service tape.

[jb512]

I agree.  If you want to wear a bunch of colorful patches, the boy scouts have plenty.  Hopefully enough of us spoke out against the cartoon blue and we should stick to the nametape, cap tape, rank insignia, and wings/badges above the cap tape.

[mikeylikey]

^ He meant your Wing's Patch I assume.....

I don't think so -

But since the Air Force is going over to the ABU, I say we get ride of all wing patches, the American flag patch, the ES patch, NCSA patches, everything except grade insignia, nametape, and service tape.

Umm Wing Patch is not the same as aviation badge, or aeronautical badge.  I think he would have said "Wings" if he meant the actual pilot wing patch.  Then again, I don't give a [darn]......

[JayT]

^ He meant your Wing's Patch I assume.....

I don't think so -

But since the Air Force is going over to the ABU, I say we get ride of all wing patches, the American flag patch, the ES patch, NCSA patches, everything except grade insignia, nametape, and service tape.

Umm Wing Patch is not the same as aviation badge, or aeronautical badge.  I think he would have said "Wings" if he meant the actual pilot wing patch.  Then again, I don't give a [darn]......

Opps, made a post in between slinging wire

No, I'm all for wings and other badges. Heck, I'm even all for CIB/CAB/CMB, SEAL Tridents, Naval Jump Wings, Scuba badges, nuclear engineering badge, submarine warfare badge, etc etc.

As long as we can get a supplier that makes them all the same color. My BDU shirt has a slightly different ultramarine blue for everything.

[afgeo4]

^ Got it, but the Army institute of heraldry says the parachutist badge is wholly an Army device.  I have no problem sharing it with the AF, as many AF peeps were some of the founders of the badge back in old WW2. 

I am just puzzled why things like the ranger tab and other "Army" badges are not allowed on the AF uniform.  I always thought the AF should bring back SSI for individuals assigned to combat.  I mean they are reinventing a uniform with the reasoning being "historical this and that", well the badges and patches are just as historical as the cut of the jacket, right?!?!

You used to be able to with BDUs. I knew a Security Police SSgt who was prior Army and wore the tab. I also know a combat weatherman who was attached to a Ranger detachment and he wore his as well.

Army unit patches used to be authorized for wear by Air Force personnel attached to Army units as well (TACP mostly), but with the ABU no more. It is strictly a USAF uniform now.

[JohnKachenmeister]

39-1 needs work.  The Army Combat Infantry Badge and Combat Medical Badge are both authorized, but the Combat Action Badge is not listed.

Why don't you add this under the thread worked elsewhere on this board about ambiguities in 39-1?

CAB is a recent invention of the Army. I believe it just came to being in the past year or two. 39-1 needs revision every 6 months, if not from our changes, from the other services' changes.

I would not count on seeing the CAB authorized on the Air Force uniform. Active Duty Air Force folks, serving with the Army have been awarded them by the Army and told "Sorry, can't wear it, not authorized on the Air Force uniform....."

I have heard that as it applied to AIR FORCE people who were awarded it while serving in Army commands.  I have never heard of it being said to former Army people who have joined the Air Force after earning the award as a soldier.

Thre Air Force recently authorized a Combat Action Medal which recognizes the same conduct as the CAB

[Flying Pig]

I think wearing military badges on our CAP uniforms are very important.  I think it gives us a connection to the military when members see us/you with them.  I don't personally have any military badges. I have worn my ribbons, (CAP and USMC) in blues uniform before and actually had a military member ask about them.  He started off by saying, "Aren't a few of those Marine Ribbons?" but really wanted to know what the others were.  He had no idea someone could be in the military and CAP at the same time.  I think it looks pretty sharp when you see a CAP member with a military specialty badge.