Incident Commanders - How long should it take to become qualified

[Larry Mangum]

Just curious as to how long it took those of us who are Incident Commanders to become qualified.  In my case from the time I earned my first ES rating until I became an IC was about 7 years.

In the past I had wing commanders who will say "this person is on a fast track to become an IC", I personally do not think you can "fast track" anyone into the IC position.  Even if the person is highly expereinced in SAR, there is a steep learning curve as to what CAP can do and can not do and leading volunteers versus paid professionals.

Thought and Ideas?

[RiverAux]

Someone could probably become an Incident Commander in a year or two if they were just blazing through the requirements and had enough mission opportunities and someone supporting them, but it is extremely unlikely for most. 

Our wing is very short on incident commanders and I think that all of them have been in for at least 10+ years.  Another one who is close is probably at about the 5-6 year mark. 

Its not such much the time in CAP that is important, it is exposure to all aspects of the ES operations.   Too many of them are air ops folks who have no clue about ground teams and their capabilities. 

[Eclipse]

5-7 years is probably "about right" for someone who is growing into it "organically", that person will likely have a pretty good idea how things work in the field.

Its not out of the question however, for someone really active to do it in a couple of years, especially if they go to NESA to get the initial ratings.  Someone walking in the door who is a high-level FEMA mission coordinator, local PD/FD officer or similar could probably drop right in, >AFTER< they spend some time learning what CAP >is< and >isn't<.

One of the biggest issues for an IC is credibility - pilots don't want to listen to a ground-pounder, and Ground guys don't think pilots understand them.

There other problem is that many IC's tend to rise to the top and never do anything else - understandable when yo see what it takes just to get there, which means they may not be current on rules and procedures.

An IC is first a manager of other, likely more qualified, managers.  I don't need to know the specific details of an AOBD's every minute to be able to manage him in concert with the other sections.  "Put two planes here, three ground teams there..." - the rest is up to them until there are challenges or people can't work and play well with others.

IMHO, though, in order to be considered for IC, you should have had to be qual'ed in both a ground specialty and aircrew, with something more than the minimum 2-mission experience.  There is no substitute for the hands-on understanding of someone who has BTDT.

[RiverAux]

Personally, I wouldn't mind if they increased the number of training missions you have to do as you go further up the chain.  As you get farther and farther from the field the variety of issues you have to learn to address increases.  Of course, this would make it even harder to get people in the upper levels, which is already a problem now. 


Scanner/Observer/Pilot: 2 training missions
AOPD/PSC: 3 training missions
OSC: 4 training missions
IC: 5 training missions

[Larry Mangum]

I started out as a ground pounder and mission observer and spent something like 3 plus years doing those things before I started ascending the mission staff ladder.  I attended every sarex I could and particpated in every real mission I could.

Over the years I have observed Mission Coordinators and Incident Commanders after the change over and have noticed that the really good ones have spent time as a ground pounder and as a aircrew member.  The least effective ones generally came from only one side of the house. 

Of course it helps if you can chew bubble gum and walk at the same time!

[floridacyclist]

It's taken me about 5 years to make it to IC2(t), and I still make no bones about not being comfortable handling extensive air ops without a good AOBD to handle the fine print since as I put it "I am not a pilot and do not play one on TV". I also use an external FRO since once again, I am not comfortable with that aspect of the mission, but having double-checked the FRO (for training purposes) on my last few flight releases may stop worrying about that soon. It hasn't caused any problems yet, but then again I also am very aware of my limitations and would have no problem stepping aside on an air-heavy mission if someone more qualified to handle such a scenario became available.

[isuhawkeye]

Within Iowa we have a very well developed ES training program. 

Introductory training should take 1 year
Leadership type training should take 1 year
Management training should take 1 year

I have 3-4 studnets who are on track to being IC at about th 3-4 year mark.

A lot of luck does fall into this.  In order to progress this rapidly the member needs to be available on the long multi day missions.  thats when they learn the most. 

[Al Sayre]

I made it to IC2 in about 20 months, but understand that I am a pilot, and a former GT1 Cadet (GT3/GTL now) , with a bunch of RealMilitary experience also.  I also command the Squadron that is co-located with Wing HQ, so I'm not far away when something is going on.  

I looked around when I took command and tried to determine what my squadron could do to help the Wing ES-wise.  I determined that I would be of much more use setting up and getting the mission base running at HQ which is in the center of the state while everyone was enroute, than I would just driving an airplane around or walking around the woods.  So I set my goal as developing a full Mission Base staff within my squadron, and to do that I had to set the example.  I attended (and still attend) every SAREX (1 per month) and did my homework ahead of time so I was prepared when I showed up to demonstrate anything that needed to be demonstrated.  I also attended the AFRCC SAR Planning course.  Also, we are a very small Wing with plenty of training opportunities, and a need for people to work in every position.  It can be done IF someone is really motivated.

[Larry Mangum]

If I understand you correctly you became and IC within 20 months of joining CAP?  That is pretty fast.    Can I ask how many actual missions you have under your belt as an IC as well as how many sarex's? 

I am not asking this so that someone can attack you rather to try and understand your experience level.

[RiverAux]

I am not fond of the idea of someone moving quickly up to IC after joining CAP.  I think they need to spend quite a bit of time in the trenches doing aircrew or ground team work on many missions before they even think of starting to move up into mission staff work.  Its not so much an issue with being able to handle the complexity of working staff, but more so that they really understand the basics of what CAP does. 

The staff work isn't actually all that hard or complicated and quite a few new people probably do have the capability of doing it -- I just don't want them doing it until they actually know what it feels like to do two hard air sorties in a day for several days in a row, or how it feels to be out looking for ELTs in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere. 

[Larry Mangum]

Agreed, that is my concern with someone to quickly moving into SAR management. I know of one person who has obtained an AOBD rating, but has flown less then 10 sorties as an MO.  It is my belief that the person does not really have enough experience to be effective as an AOBD. They are good at keeping the 107 filled out, but would not want them releasing flights without oversight.

[RiverAux]

Personally, I have been in as a senior member for 10 years and have been fairly active on the air and on the ground for most of it.  I feel that I probably had the experience necessary to move up to staff after about 5 years.  I've actually been moving up the staff ladder actively for the last 2 and this experience is what led to my earlier suggestion to add more training missions in the staff positions.  If I hadn't been as involved in as many "real" missions as a staff trainee as I have (for example, if I did an AOBD training mission for a 1 plane ELT mission), I know I wouldn't be ready. 

[Larry Mangum]

One of the way we are trying to get the staff more experience, is to develop realistic tabletop exercise for the mission staff so they can practice their craft with out having to learn it under fire.  As a big believe in ICS and slotting people with the required skills, I have found CAP has not done a good job of developing materials that really teach people NIMS/ICS and how to work with organizations.  In Washington, a CAP AOBD could be briefing / debriefing crews from several different organizations before turning them over to their respective organizations for flight release.  In that type of situation we have to do ICS and do it well.  The wing is not totally there but we are well on our way to being able to do so.

[BillB]

Again people aren't reading what is typed.  That's 20 months to IC2 AS A SENIOR member. You'll notice there is also cadet experience of several more years. So that is probably somewhere between four and six years or even longer to get to IC2 level.

[Ranger75]

I'm just now stepping into the advanced training tasks associated with IC3.  I'm at 18 months on this "tour" with CAP, but have a total of nine years experience in CAP prior to and interspersed with an active duty military career.  The duration of my last lapse in membership required that I reestablish ES qualifications beginning with GES.  I can appreciate an expression of concern for rapid advancement through the IC staff positions toward IC.  Yet, I believe that such a judgment must be evaluated on an individual basis.  Each of us brings a unique background of experiences and personal skills into CAP.  With over thirty years of command and staff experience in ground tactical units I approach the responsibilities associated with being an IC with confidence.  I know that I can call upon past experiences, current training, and the assistance of my staff to execute the mission.  Also recall that the Wing CC must express a similar confidence.  CAPR 63-1 requires that one obtain the approval of the Wing or Region CC as a prerequisite to beginning training and, within my wing, the Wing CC is the final approval authority on the SQTR.

[flynd94]

It took me 5 years to get from the GES to IC3, now a IC2t.  I did all the air and, ground stuff (MP, GTL).  I felt that would give me more experience and, credibility with crews.

[DeputyDog]

Just curious as to how long it took those of us who are Incident Commanders to become qualified.  In my case from the time I earned my first ES rating until I became an IC was about 7 years.

From earning my first ES rating (MRO) to becoming an IC, it was 18 months. My only experience as an IC so far (after earning the rating) has been running a SAREX. My wing has recently had a "dry spell" for ELTs and the like (which is a good thing  ).

My highest rating used on an actual is GBD. It was for a two-day disaster relief mission running three ground teams, with the IC only available by telephone (he was on the other side of the state). I guess that effectively made me a "Physician Assistant-style IC" for that mission.

I've been a senior member for ten years (as of last month) and was a cadet for two years before that. I've been on nine actuals and nine practice (one of which was a 4 day multi-agency state-wide disaster relief exercise where I was trained as a PSC and an OSC in the state EOC).

I wasn't "fast-tracked". I was just aggressive with my training. 

[Al Sayre]

If I understand you correctly you became and IC within 20 months of joining CAP?  That is pretty fast.    Can I ask how many actual missions you have under your belt as an IC as well as how many sarex's? 

I am not asking this so that someone can attack you rather to try and understand your experience level.

As IC, I've got about 25-30 ELT hunts, the save we got in June for Dennis Steinbock, and a couple of others that the flight path passed through MS, but the crash was elsewhere.  I've also run 2 or 3 for state authorities, and about 6 statewide SAREX's. 

As someone above pointed out, I didn't walk in to CAP as a complete n00b SM.  I did quite a bit of GT in the Everglades as a FLWG cadet back in the 70's, worked a couple of really ugly military crashes as Military GT including a C-141 that crashed in Lentini Sicily.  Ive also spent time boring holes in the sky both as a pilot and as a scanner/observer.  I've also taken the time to complete ICS through the 400 level with the state agencies we work with and gotten to know my counterparts on their side.  I guess the 20 months is a bit misleading when you don't know my background. 

One thing that helps me a lot is that I used to own a taxicab company in Ft Pierce Fl, with about 20 cars out running at any given time.  After running that mess for 7 years, keeping an eye on 6 or 7 planes and a couple of Ground Teams with a cooperative staff and crews that do what they are asked is a picnic.

[floridacyclist]

As a former cabdriver (one of the few jobs that worked for me when I was in school as a single parent), you have my complete empathy and understanding.

I didn't see anything wrong with the original statement as it was. If I went to 1 SAREX a month, I would have made IC1 a lot sooner along with everything under it as I got bored and just started checking boxes for the fun of it....which is sort of where I'm at now as I wait for level 2 and level 1 missions to become available.

[Falshrmjgr]

It's taken me about 5 years to make it to IC2(t), and I still make no bones about not being comfortable handling extensive air ops without a good AOBD to handle the fine print since as I put it "I am not a pilot and do not play one on TV". I also use an external FRO since once again, I am not comfortable with that aspect of the mission, but having double-checked the FRO (for training purposes) on my last few flight releases may stop worrying about that soon. It hasn't caused any problems yet, but then again I also am very aware of my limitations and would have no problem stepping aside on an air-heavy mission if someone more qualified to handle such a scenario became available.

OK, I am confused on this one:

IC requires OSC, OSC requires PSC, PSC requires AOBD, AOBD requires MP.  How can you become an IC without being a Pilot?  (Or am I reading things wrong?)

[RiverAux]

AOBD requires Mission Pilot OR Mission Observer.

[Ranger75]

You are in error.  PSC requires qualification as either AOBD or GOBD.  Qualification for AOBD requires that the individual hold a rating as either MP or MO.  In addition, an individual working toward PSC, through the AOBD route, must have, at one time, been qualified as GTM or UDF.  Those arising from the ranks of GOBDs must have been qualified as a MS.

[floridacyclist]

Exactly, which I have...I'm working on my MO and eventually AOBD so that I can round out my knowledge of the air side a little better even though it wasn't required to make it here.

[Falshrmjgr]

AOBD requires Mission Pilot OR Mission Observer.

See!  I did read it wrong 

[jasonmc]

Its not out of the question however, for someone really active to do it in a couple of years, especially if they go to NESA to get the initial ratings.  Someone walking in the door who is a high-level FEMA mission coordinator, local PD/FD officer or similar could probably drop right in, >AFTER< they spend some time learning what CAP >is< and >isn't<.

I was a Air Force Firefighter for 7 years so I know alot of the ES side and some of the airfield side of things, my problem is getting people to sign off things I already know such as First Aid, Treating heat and cold injuries...!

[flyguy06]

So, I take it most people on this board are Ground Ops guys? Thats what it appears by reading this post.

How does military training help you in ES? I mean I was an Infantry Platoon leader. I know how to lay down surpressive fire. Move to contact. conduct an ambush, raid and patrol on foot as well as in Bradley fighting vehicles. Now, how does this eqaute to a CAP ground team?

I am slightly interested in ES. I got my MO quals last year, but havent used them one bit. Since my squadron isnt active in ES, I dont get calle don missions. and my Wing usually has ES training on weekends I have Guard drill so I cannot attend .So how does someone inmy position become an IC?

The current Guard unit I am in specializes in Homeland defense and reacts to different threats including natural disasters. We model ourselves after the ICS system (which I thought would come in handy for me. Currently I am a Planning section chief in my Guard unit. I have completed ICS 100, 200, 300, 400, 700, and 800, but I doubt CAP will give me any credit for that.

[RiverAux]

You're not in a very good position to move up in CAP ES work as things stand now.  Seems like the onus will be on you to get the squadron more involved in ES, if thats what you want to do.  Whenever CAP gets around to more fully implementing NIMS requirements your ICS coursework will count just fine.

[Ranger75]

Flyguy06 -- I would expect that there are any number of skill sets and experiences that you can call upon.  First is leadership experience.  As a small unit tactical leader, you should have gained an understanding of how to motivate individuals and a collective group in the accomplishment of a specified mission.  As an infantryman you would have garnered a unique appreciation for terrain, vegetation, time/distance factors. and the elements.  Much of the fieldcraft techniques you were taught have a direct correlation to the conduct of ground SAR operations in a non-urban environment.  Having had an opportunity to either participate as a member, or to observe an established command and staff structure, you should be able to easily relate to the organizational scheme of the Incident Command System.  I could continue, but the bottom line is that being a "grunt" encompasses much more than a singular focus on combat techniques and tactics.

[Short Field]

Currently I am a Planning section chief in my Guard unit. I have completed ICS 100, 200, 300, 400, 700, and 800, but I doubt CAP will give me any credit for that.

There should be no issue with getting credit for the ICS course.  Getting PSC transferred to your 101 could be an issue but with your traning as a PSC, then you should be able to qualify fairly fast.

[eaglefly]

Formal IC training took 2.5 years.   That is after having been a 'crew dog' for several years.   I had a LOT of help from the Wings other IC's - they would send 'easy' missions my way, to run as a IC(t), until they thought I was ready.  Then they threw me to the Wolves!!!    IC is demanding and fun and like everyone else I hate WMIRS.....