High Altitude Balloons and APRS

[Major Lord]

I thought you might want to see what some Canadian folks have been doing with High Altitude Balloons. I received this because they used the APRS transmitters that my company makes, but the photos are awesome! CAP should be more involved in near-space balloon experiments!

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/balloon-in-space/ordinary-guys-send-picture+taking-balloon-2227-miles-high-293245.php

Major Lord

[♠SARKID♠]

CAP should be more involved in near-space balloon experiments!

One squadron (that I know of) already is.  Check out the March/April 2007 edition of the Volunteer magazine pg 18-19 (http://www.cap.gov/documents/CAP_Volunteer_MarApr_2007_lores.pdf).

A squadron has been building and launching its own high altitude baloons as part of their AE program.  They've been doing similar things as the Canadians you're talking about with taking pictures, weather readings, etc.  They even attach an ELT so that they can do a training mission and find the balloon afterwards. 

[♠SARKID♠]

I retract that last post, seeing as theres a thread for it, and you've already posted there.   

[Major Lord]

For some reason, I could not download that .Pdf file, but I think it was probably the article about the Cap n Space program. I donated a tracking transmitter and a tracking "beacon" transmitter to them. Good guys out there, and a great website!

Major Lord

[♠SARKID♠]

http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/civil_air_patrol_volunteer/downloads/

March-April issue, Page 18

[NIN]

http://www.capnspace.org

[CadetProgramGuy]

Major Lord,

Iowa is on track for a January  - start building date, with launch in the fall of 08.  FYI

[Major Lord]

Do you happen to know who is the lead on that? I would like to discuss donating some gear with them.

Major Lord

[CadetProgramGuy]

Do you happen to know who is the lead on that? I would like to discuss donating some gear with them.

Major Lord

Yeah....Me

[Maj Ballard]

My AEO is working on this as well. PM me if you'd like his contact info.

[CadetProgramGuy]

For those of you working on your own Near Space Project....

1.  What is your primary objective of the flight?
2.  What budget do you have set up?
3. What is your time frame?
4.  How do you plan on incorperating the three CAP missions into your project?

For Iowa

1.  AE Training for the cadets focusing on teamwork and confidence building
2.  about $600, includes every thing for 2 flights
3.  Start building in January, launch in late summer early fall
4. AE - Build the package, CP - Have teh cadets do most of the work, ES - Strap on an ELT and have the GT's hunt it down.

[CadetProgramGuy]

For those of you working on your own Near Space Project....

1.  What is your primary objective of the flight?
2.  What budget do you have set up?
3. What is your time frame?
4.  How do you plan on incorperating the three CAP missions into your project?

For Iowa

1.  AE Training for the cadets focusing on teamwork and confidence building
2.  about $600, includes every thing for 2 flights
3.  Start building in January, launch in late summer early fall
4. AE - Build the package, CP - Have teh cadets do most of the work, ES - Strap on an ELT (Practice Beacon) and have the GT's hunt it down.

Edit Made.

[wingnut]

Actually GUYS

Launching an ELT simulator in a balloon is most definitely in violation of the FCC regulation on using the ELT simulator transmitter "Test Station.

For reference see PAR. 87.521(a) of the FCC rules and regulations

I think if you are using something like that you should consider a device used by Ham's, they are legal on their frequencies.

But hey what do I know, I think its a great idea with other numerous science projects, come to think of it I would like to put my CO in and see how high he can go w/o  O2

[CadetProgramGuy]

Actually GUYS

Launching an ELT simulator in a balloon is most definitely in violation of the FCC regulation on using the ELT simulator transmitter "Test Station.

For reference see PAR. 87.521(a) of the FCC rules and regulations

I think if you are using something like that you should consider a device used by Ham's, they are legal on their frequencies.

But hey what do I know, I think its a great idea with other numerous science projects, come to think of it I would like to put my CO in and see how high he can go w/o  O2

Having a hard time finding 87.521a.  Can you provide link?

[SarDragon]

Is this a title of the US Code, or of the Code of Federal Regulations? Which title? The given info is insufficient to find the cite.

Title 47 CFR covers Telecommunication. Part 87 covers Aviation services,  but there is no section 251a.

Link to CFR.

[Major Lord]

If anyone finds this alleged code, would you mind getting a clarification on what the offense is? I specifically want to know if you can legally activate the ELT after the balloon has landed, rather than run it in flight ( on a high altitude balloon a practice beacon could be detected from 300-400 miles away at altitude) Operating the beacon in flight is not necessary, especially if you are using an APRS (tracking ) transmitter, but allows CAP DF equipped personnel to use it as a fairly realistic training mission.

Major Lord

[♠SARKID♠]

Actually GUYS

Launching an ELT simulator in a balloon is most definitely in violation of the FCC regulation on using the ELT simulator transmitter "Test Station.

For reference see PAR. 87.521(a) of the FCC rules and regulations

I think if you are using something like that you should consider a device used by Ham's, they are legal on their frequencies.

But hey what do I know, I think its a great idea with other numerous science projects, come to think of it I would like to put my CO in and see how high he can go w/o  O2

Don't you love it how the government never publishes ALL of the laws?  They always leave out massive hunks of information.  I did a search and couldn't find it either...

[KC0IEA]

From 47 CFR

PART 87_AVIATION SERVICES

Sec. 87.471  Scope of service.

       (c) Transmissions by emergency locator transmitter (ELT) test
stations must be limited to necessary testing of ELTs and to training
operations related to the use of such transmitters.

[♠SARKID♠]

From 47 CFR

PART 87_AVIATION SERVICES

Sec. 87.471  Scope of service.

       (c) Transmissions by emergency locator transmitter (ELT) test
stations must be limited to necessary testing of ELTs and to training
operations related to the use of such transmitters.

That refers to real ELT's broadcasting on the emergency 121.5Mhz frequency.  Our training beacons are on their own frequency, 121.775Mhz, and are of no concern to that law.  By test stations, it means testing of the actual beacons to make sure they aren't broken, and are going to work in a real emergency.

Also, what you have there is Sec. 87.471, we are trying to get PAR. 87.521(a)

[SarDragon]

As I said above, there does not appear to be a paragraph with that number.

The reference to "test station" is very vague, and might be interpreted a couple of different ways, although my leaning is toward an avionics shop doing repair work. FWIW, most ELTs I've seen are non-repairable, other than battery replacement. That action does, of course, require testing.

Ball's in your court, wingnut.

[♠SARKID♠]

Why do they leave chunks of numbers out when they write laws?  Or is it that they were once there and have since been repealed/rewritten?

[SarDragon]

It's more like an outline, where you start the numbers over when you increment the next higher level.

A.
   1.
   2.
B.
   1.
      a.
      b.
   2.

There are certain instances where parts or sections have been deleted, and then there will be obvious gaps, rather than a restart of numbering. Some listings will show the word [deleted] for clarification.

The sequence goes: Title, Volume, Chapter, Part. A proper citation would read like this:

Title 47 CFR Part 87 Sec 471 or
Title 47 CFR Part 87.471

This is a different group of laws than the U.S. Code you might have seen cited elsewhere.

[♠SARKID♠]

It's more like an outline, where you start the numbers over when you increment the next higher level.

A.
   1.
   2.
B.
   1.
      a.
      b.
   2.

There are certain instances where parts or sections have been deleted, and then there will be obvious gaps, rather than a restart of numbering. Some listings will show the word [deleted] for clarification.

The sequence goes: Title, Volume, Chapter, Part. A proper citation would read like this:

Title 47 CFR Part 87 Sec 471 or
Title 47 CFR Part 87.471

This is a different group of laws than the U.S. Code you might have seen cited elsewhere.

Okay, makes sense

[KC0IEA]

There is no 87.521 that I have found, here is the link to 47 CFR

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_04/47cfrv5_04.html

From 47 CFR
PART 87_AVIATION SERVICES
Sec. 87.475  Frequencies

(d) Frequencies available for ELT test stations. The frequencies
available for assignment to ELT test stations are 121.600, 121.650,
121.700, 121.750, 121.800, 121.850, and 121.900 MHz. Licensees must:

I do not see the 121.775 in the list so there must be some other area that I have not found yet.

[Steve Silverwood]

If you guys really want to know the legality of just about anything to do with FCC regulations, the person to contact is Riley Hollingsworth, Special Counsel to the FCC Enforcement Division.  You can reach him c/o the FCC at:

   445 12th Street, SW
   Washington, DC 20554
   202 418 1160 Voice
   202 418 7290 Fax

Sorry, I don't have an email address for him.  But he's the go-to guy for this sort of info.  He's also a real stand-up guy, always willing to help people avoid problems with the FCC -- as well as enforce the rules when someone does go astray....

//Steve//

[CadetProgramGuy]

What I don't get is when a member states you cannot do somthing as per some regulation, but then cannot backup his/her comments.

I understand that you believe that yiou cannot put a practice beacon on a balloon and send it to altitude.

Just give us the location of your Regulation.  I sure as crap can't find it, and the call to the local FCC says it's ok.

[wingnut]

I suggest common sense

1st. The The Pointer ELT is Classified (and Licensed) as a "GROUND TEST STATION"
2. The Transmitter can be damaged while 'Flying in a Balloon, and be knocked OFF Frequency
    it is a $2,000 fine  to activate an ELT unit knowingly or through Carelessness. (putting an activated  ELT Ground Test Station 'Transmitter" in a Balloon and letting it  blow away)
3. If you read the  Pointer ELT Ground Test Station Manual it specifically states that the unit can be off Frequency if the antenna is (Changed) or the battery runs low or too high)
4.) I f someone from the FCC tells you can do it  "GET IT IN WRITING" because you must follow FCC procedures (Forms and Requests) with any transmitter.

It makes common sense that you would utilize a Transmitter that has a frequency assigned for such "Games", the kind the  Ham Radio people use for 'FOX HUNTS (GAME). I too have had conversations with the FCC many times since I getting  my 1st class license in 1984 (General Radio Telephone), I have found the FCC is unforgiving if a Transmitter strays off of frequency because of someone screwing around with it and it 'Interferes with Aviation or Emergency Radio Equipment.

You can find the CFRs to be Generally written and enforcement up to the FCC. You can smooth talk someone at the FCC who is clueless of what the thing does and   allowing the use In a balloon until it screws up and it will be embarrassing to the CAP and the AFRCC. Besides the CFR defines the ELT simulator as a groung test station, so does Pointer.

maybe someone should call National HQ,  explain to the Radio guys what your doing and if they approve it go ahead, put the ELT test  transmitter in Balloons, Model Rockets, radio controlled cars whats to stop you.

I am all for what you guys are doing with the Cadets, good job.  Just pointing out some potential issues of using or missusing a radio Tranmitter.

[CadetProgramGuy]

We did this on a balloon 3 years ago, and worked flawlessly.

This time however we are stripping the practice beacon down to a board level, and integrating it into the package.

I will call the FCC again and get it in writing to be safe.  Stay tuned i will get you the horses mouth answer in a few days.

[Major Lord]

Since it is apparently not clear to some, the use of a practice beacon in CAP high altitude balloon launches allows CAP equipped DF resources ( Aircraft, Ground teams, etc.) to locate the downed payload. This introduces an element of randomness that cannot be duplicated in a SAREX. It is in fact, a search for a downed air vehicle in real life conditions. I believe that it would be best if the practice beacon ( read: ELT on 121.775) was not running in flight, and was activated by a timer or the flight computer once the payload is on the ground. From 100,000 feet, the beacon could potentially be heard by staions 1000 kM away. The use of ham radio frequencies would exclude CAP direction finding.

Use of the practice beacon ( Or aviation radio with controller) allows this to be a truly multi-mission operation, including Cadet programs, Emergency services, and Aerospace education.

I admit my qualifications in this area are weak.... I am a ground team leader, a manufacturer of radio tracking equipment, and hold a ham and commercial FCC license with Radar endorsement. I don't see any regulations that prohibit this use, the FCC and the FAA are well aware of the practice, and many such launches have taken place with no problem.

Major Lord

[♠SARKID♠]

I agree.  The best way to go about this is to have the beacon go off on touchdown.  That way you wont start any hullabaloo (    I like that word) with somebody halfway round the world thinking its a real distress situation.  Also, if you are trying to mimic a real life scenario of a downed aircraft, the ELT wouldn't be going off during the hour before the accident happened.

I do have one question though.  How far can those balloons drift?  Are you sure that you will be able to locate it after having flown so far, even after the beacon is activated?  Those beacons do have a limit to their range, especially if the antenna face-plants into the dirt upon landing.  Will you have a backup GPS system?

[Major Lord]

Sarkid,

Most, but not all, high altitude balloon launches use Automatic Position Reporting (APRS) Transmitters to track the balloon through flight, allowing the flight team to see in near real time the altitude and location of the balloon. The drift on these things can be hundreds or even thousands in some cases, of miles. There are computer programs that factor in weather, payload weight, lift capacity, flight time, and other factors that give a pretty good estimate of where a balloon will go. Many balloons allow remote control of the payload cutdown. APRS transmitters work great at altitude with very little power. One of the units I make, the Micro-Trak 300 (www.byonics.com/microtrak) has 300 milliwatts (less than one third of one Watt) and was received directly from 600 KM away at 117,000 feet. Once the transmitter falls to earth, all bets on further function are off! This could be because the APRS transmitter is no longer in range of the Nationwide network of digital repeaters, or because it is upside down in a water puddle.... This would be a great time to fire up an ELT simulator and get a little DF "stick time" in. Based on the computer program, the "flight plan" and the computer prediction, we will have a pretty good guess where to start the search. Like a "real" mission, there is a pretty good chance that everything we think we know is wrong....

It would certainly be possible to place a ham "foxhunt" transmitter into the Payload too ( although weight is very critical) allowing hams equipped with DR gear to go and play too. My guess is that if they gave the exercise a mission number, CAP would not want hams to play.

Major Lord

[wingnut]

Very Cool

I had just purchased a Pointer 6000 ELT simulator for $192.00 from Skygeeks, but I was repairing a broken unit and called Pointer to order some parts. They will sell directly to a CAP  unit (pointer 6000) for $160.00 including UPS. !! Thats a bargain.

I also asked about attaching the unit on a Balloon and they don't have a problem with it, it is rugged but not indestructable and it would not be a "Ground Test Station" any more. Any other questions should be directed to the FCC.


Pointer
1027 N. Stadem Drive
Tempe, AZ 85281, USA
PHONE:  (480) 966-1674
FAX:  (480) 968-8020

[♠SARKID♠]

Thanks for the info Major

Once the transmitter falls to earth, all bets on further function are off! This could be because the APRS transmitter is no longer in range of the Nationwide network of digital repeaters, or because it is upside down in a water puddle.... This would be a great time to fire up an ELT simulator and get a little DF "stick time" in.

This part of your info got me thinking.  What if you set it up to automatically right itself if upside down?  You could make it like the Mars rover landing pod.  I of course realize that weight is critical, and it might take some amount of possibly heavy parts to do this.  You can see what I mean in the first minute of this video

Obviously it would be on a much lighter and less advanced rig, and would require the pod to be tetrahedral or pyramid in shape.  Do you think that it would be possible?

Edit: URL -TA

[Major Lord]

Sarkid,

If you can find a way to make that work and still be within the payload weight limits, you should let Cadetprogramguy and the CAPnSpace people in on it.  I designed a quarter wave antenna that unfolds from a tube and falls like a lawn dart to ensure heads -up landings., but I have never tried it in real life. Something about dropping a lawn dart from 100,000 feet is strangely appealing...Can I drop one on Tehran?

Major Lord

[♠SARKID♠]

What kind of weight restrictions would the "uprighting system" have to fall into.  Specifically, what is the max weight after motor, connections, etc.

I think I have an idea that may work.

************************************

Okay, now I have an idea.

The sides of the module fold out just like on the mars rover platform, except rather than using motors as the primary moving force, it uses high tension torsion springs like those found in mousetraps.  Infact, the mousetrap is a perfect example.

The fold outs are attached to a hinge on the base of the platform.  At the bottom near the hinge is the torsion spring keeping constant pressure on the fold out, trying to make the sides fold out and lay flat.  To keep the sides closed during flight, a line of paracord is attached to the fold outs.  The other end is attached to a winch motor in the center of the pod.

To close, the winch winds the cord, pulling the sides up into place.  Upon landing, the motor is programed to slowly unwind the paracord, allowing the torsion springs to fold the wings out and upright the pod, just like the mars rover.

With the pod upright, signal transmission can be optimal and tracking can be a success.

I've attached a very very very very very very crude picture of my idea (just made it in paint in like, 45 sec.)

[Hoser]

May I suggest you contact LtCOl Troy Campbell, MOWG CV. He knows the answers to all these questions. CAP Near Space is his baby

[CadetProgramGuy]

To get under the FAA's regs, 6lbs total.

To get into the FAA regs see FAR 101.  Beware though, its alot like reading CAP regs....

[JCW0312]

If you guys really want to know the legality of just about anything to do with FCC regulations, the person to contact is Riley Hollingsworth, Special Counsel to the FCC Enforcement Division.  You can reach him c/o the FCC at:

   445 12th Street, SW
   Washington, DC 20554
   202 418 1160 Voice
   202 418 7290 Fax

Sorry, I don't have an email address for him.  But he's the go-to guy for this sort of info.  He's also a real stand-up guy, always willing to help people avoid problems with the FCC -- as well as enforce the rules when someone does go astray....

//Steve//

I thought Hollingsworth was assigned to enforcement of FCC laws regarding amateur radio operators and the amateur frequencies.

[♠SARKID♠]

^Bump

How goes the building process?  Is it still an ongoing project?  I'd love to see some pics of what you have so far.

[♠SARKID♠]

Been a while, I'll ask again

Any progress on the system?

[CadetProgramGuy]

http://tinyurl.com/6qggo8