Watch Cap Clarification

[Shuman 14]

Well there is many ways to crack this egg.

In the Army Reserve, all field equipment is issued from a centralized depot to the individual Soldier. Reserve units no longer keep large amounts on hand, maybe a half a dozen sets to use for new Soldiers before they get their issue from the depot.

You don't go to the depot, the depots ships the gear to you. When you get out, you turn your gear in to the local unit, they generate a receipt for what you turn in and they ship the gear back to the depot. What you don't turn in, you get a bill for.

We could set something like this for CAP, using the USAF supply system. You join as a cadet, you get a Curry Voucher but other than send the Money to Vanguard, the CAP Squadron takes the Voucher and fills out a requisition to a USAF depot and the cadet gets shipped to them a short sleeve shirt, trousers, a flight cap, a belt, a tie or neck tab and a set of low quarters, which gets shipped to the cadet from the depot.

Tee-shirt, black socks, underwear and nametag are on the parents.

Hat badge, cadet rank and awards are on the local Squadron's dime.

Everything else is on a one for one exchange. Get promoted, surrender you old rank, and here is new rank.

Out grow trousers, bring in the old, we'll order new ones. Everything goes back to the depot for re-issue or destruction if unserviceable.

Leave CAP, turn everything back in or get a bill from the USAF depot. Turn in at the local unit, with receipt issued and the squadron will ship all the gear back to the depot.

At a certain rank or activity, a Service Coat gets issued and the same with OCPs, boots and other field gear.

As long as everyone understands this is property of the USAF, you are borrowing it, if you lose it, you just bought it. Legally binding paperwork to be signed at time of issue.

If you complete the Cadet program, and become a senior, you can purchase your used cadet uniform at a depreciated cost, payable over time, if needed.

Seniors can purchase direct from the depot, once the system is up and running.

This will also force CAP to update uniforms when the USAF does as the depot will only issue USAF uniform items.

It would be a workable system.

[Eclipse]

It would be a workable system.

The system you propose sounds reasonable, workable, and would cost
millions to ramp up.

This is a world where CAP members can't even purchase uniform items
from the USAF's official supplier because the call center doesn't
want to track people who aren't in the system as service members.

[Ned]

So...math.

According to this document:  https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Curry_Uniform_Program_EC13F6BF7528E.pdf
Maj Hallihan asserts that the expectation is 12k new cadets annually (if that's actually the case, the churn is
a lot higher), with a 20% non-redeem rate, which would mean that the program is underfunded by at about $360k.

Well, I guess it is a perspective thing.  For the first 50 years of our program, we had no external funding for cadet uniforms.  (Beyond the occasional DRMO dump.). And as others have pointed out, our cadet numbers were actually higher with no uniform money than now.

So to talk about "underfunding" is interesting.  Clearly, if the AF wanted to increase the funding, we would be grateful and could clearly get more uniforms for our deserving cadets.  OTOH, even if they reduced the funding, we would still be grateful for any assistance they provide.
So there's that.

The other question is what happens to the overage of funding in years where CAP doesn't get 6000 new cadets?
Or is that bundled into CEAP?

We have always used 100% of the allocation, and have had to decline requests after we have hit the limit for each FY.  That was one of the reasons the Curry Voucher program was adjusted to ensure that more cadets are provided the opportunity.

And FWIW, CEAP and uniform funds come from different "pots" of federal money and could not be mixed.  In the unlikely event we did not disperse all the uniform funds, we would be obligated to return the unexpended funds to Uncle Sam.

[Ned]

And when thinking about any system where USAF property (such as uniforms) comes into the possession of CAP, Inc or individual members, carefully consider the considerable requirements for receiving, safeguarding, and accounting for government property. 

Signatures, personal accountability, periodic inventories, and a lot of record-keeping.  I spent my fair share of time as an Army company commander, and can assure you that Uncle Sam is fairly persnickety about such things.  Like unit commanders "signing" for unit property.  Reports of Survey and Statements of Charges in the event that 100% accountability is not maintained.

The unit commander before me was held responsible for property losses in the unit and had to personally pay over $1k back to Uncle Sam.

So be careful what you wish for . . .

[PHall]

Kinda easy here to tell who has and who has not dealt with the military supply system and all the fun it entails.

[SarDragon]

Kinda easy here to tell who has and who has not dealt with the military supply system and all the fun it entails.

          

[TheSkyHornet]

There's also the issue that a non-trivial number (seemingly more each year) of units meet somewhere
that has zero storage space.

*raises hand*...that one's me.

I had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

[Okayish Aviator]

Even in the ideal world, we're also dealing with another looming logistical nightmare with uniforms. I'm down in FLWG, and despite several bases and some surplus that got snatched up by local units, most of those were odd sizes, unserviceable items or the old Gen 1 ABU (read as heavy-weight) which sucks immensely for hot summers in the sunshine state.

An example, I've been looking for an APECS parka for about 3 months after mine got torn during a downed aircraft search (sharp aluminum really do be like that). Additionally all the major manufactures of ABU's are starting to dry up.

I'm sure the NUB is aware of it and working toward something, but who knows when we'll see changes given how soon we are since the last change.

[Capt Thompson]

There's also the issue that a non-trivial number (seemingly more each year) of units meet somewhere
that has zero storage space.

*raises hand*...that one's me.

I had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

Interesting article, but out of the scope of what most Squadrons will be able to accomplish. The Wing might be able to get a few million for a training facility, as in this article, but a local Squadron isn't going to get that kind of grant for their weekly meetings.

[N6RVT]

I had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

Who gets to live in the "Caretaker Cottage"?

[TheSkyHornet]

I had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

Who gets to live in the "Caretaker Cottage"?

Not sure, but it doesn't look like the original $3.5 really made an impact to the unit's meeting space in the doublewide: https://www.facebook.com/HutchCAP/photos/1200490596825801

[Spam]

I had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

Who gets to live in the "Caretaker Cottage"?

Not sure, but it doesn't look like the original $3.5 really made an impact to the unit's meeting space in the doublewide: https://www.facebook.com/HutchCAP/photos/1200490596825801

Those pics look like they're all prior to the original grant. Nice doublewide facility though; better than some. Looks like a good unit. Good on them for seeking and securing funding in the first place!

(As an aside, posting pics with political signs and rebel flags in USAF style uniform is generally not recommended, but I digress).

R/s
Spam

[Shuman 14]

It would be a workable system.

The system you propose sounds reasonable, workable, and would cost
millions to ramp up.

This is a world where CAP members can't even purchase uniform items
from the USAF's official supplier because the call center doesn't
want to track people who aren't in the system as service members.

No not millions, I would suspect a similar system is in place already for the USAFR, much like the USAR system is.

The trick will getting CAP access to the system already in place.

Since the military is moving away from the SSN to the DOD ID number, it might be workable to convert CAPID to a DOD ID number. If we could get that into the supply system or even the Exchange System, it would make purchasing uniforms simpler.

[Shuman 14]

And when thinking about any system where USAF property (such as uniforms) comes into the possession of CAP, Inc or individual members, carefully consider the considerable requirements for receiving, safeguarding, and accounting for government property. 

Signatures, personal accountability, periodic inventories, and a lot of record-keeping.  I spent my fair share of time as an Army company commander, and can assure you that Uncle Sam is fairly persnickety about such things.  Like unit commanders "signing" for unit property.  Reports of Survey and Statements of Charges in the event that 100% accountability is not maintained.

The unit commander before me was held responsible for property losses in the unit and had to personally pay over $1k back to Uncle Sam.

So be careful what you wish for . . .

I remember my last change of command inventory when I picked up Major after my company command. Pain in the butt to say the least.

Most of my vehicles were at a different post then where the unit was located. BDE would fund me to go TDY for the inspection, had to settle for a hand receipt saying the vehicles were accounted for.

The goal of my system is not to put a burden on a Squadron Commander but to the individual CAP member and/or cadet parents.

The member is responsible for the uniform/s and gear they are issued, not the unit. The only time a unit should be touching them is when a member leaves CAP and turns the gear and uniform/s in.

Document only what was turned in, give the departing member a receipt, and put it in a box and ship to a USAF depot.

If the member is short, the member gets the bill, not the Squadron or the Squadron commander.

We're not reinventing the wheel here. As someone has already pointed out, JROTCs do this already, of course they use the extra club of no transcript/no diploma until the bill for unreturned equipment is paid but there are other ways for the USAF to get it's money back.

[Imouttahere]

This is thread is pretty off track at the moment, but if it helps, I got this today regarding the black watch cap with ABU. I had a ticket in prior to this thread asking the same question.





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[Eclipse]

That's great, except that person has zero authority to make that call.

[PHall]

That's great, except that person has zero authority to make that call.

How do you know they were the one who made the call?
They could just be the person handling the help tickets.

[Eclipse]

How do you know they were the one who made the call?
They could just be the person handling the help tickets.

That's the point, unless they are quoting an approved regulation or published
policy, it just a wive's tale. This is literally the thing we rail against all
the time, including the ubiquitous "double-secret supplement waiting for approval."

CAP's regulations are very specific about their procedure for updates and changes,
especially in regards to uniform wear.

The knowledgebase, nor someone answering the phone at NHQ, is not part of that process.

Even if it's HEADCAP who answers.

[Imouttahere]

That's great, except that person has zero authority to make that call.

I mean, that's the mechanism we have to request clarification. Quite frankly it makes no difference to me. But it's an answer from HQ. They took an unusually long amount of time to respond so I can only assuming they were doing due diligence to the question.


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[TheSkyHornet]

I'm at a total loss of understanding how an article is authorized for wear via support ticket (whether NHQ or whomever) while the black-and-white text of the published regulation says completely otherwise.

The black watch cap is NOT authorized for wear with the ABU; BDU only.

Don't do it just because someone at NHQ said you could. Literally read the source document.