Watch Cap Clarification

[Capt Thompson]

I'm at a total loss of understanding how an article is authorized for wear via support ticket (whether NHQ or whomever) while the black-and-white text of the published regulation says completely otherwise.

The black watch cap is NOT authorized for wear with the ABU; BDU only.

Don't do it just because someone at NHQ said you could. Literally read the source document.

Me: Cadet, why are you wearing that black watch cap with ABU, 39-1 forbids it?

C/Amn Snuffy: I have authorization from NHQ, in writing, to wear this.

Pretty much shuts down the conversation right there, whether it's right or not. I'm very surprised the help desk would contradict a reg like that, but if NHQ sent that to a member and they used that as justification, I'm not overruling NHQ, especially if it keeps the Cadet's head warm and his/her uniform is otherwise in good order.

[Eclipse]

Those of us with a few RSRs have had to deal with more then a few issues where someone
at NHQ made an off-handed determination or statement about a reg or policy in conflict with
published directives or local command policy, outside any actual authority to do
so, and resulting in things just being more difficult to deal with after.

Members want to play Army when they hear things they like or agree with, but will
seek out agreement from any corner they can find it when they don't like something.

The KB is supposed to quote published regulation and policy for members who can't
find it on their own, not make it.

[Eclipse]

C/Amn Snuffy: I have authorization from NHQ, in writing, to wear this.

Sorry cadet, that person exceeded their authority.

Also, why did you contact NHQ when I could have clarified things for you?

The example you cite is literally the problem, because again, cadets
especially will seek out the answer they want, not the answer.

"Keeps your head warm" is irrelevant at the macro policy level when it's already
handled at the micro "for today" level by published regulation.

This smacks of the time we had two experienced cadets who showed up to a bivouac
with Desert Storm era battle helmets instead of patrol caps. "Well these are safer".

Edit: Quote system wonky

[Okayish Aviator]

I'm at a total loss of understanding how an article is authorized for wear via support ticket (whether NHQ or whomever) while the black-and-white text of the published regulation says completely otherwise.

The black watch cap is NOT authorized for wear with the ABU; BDU only.

Don't do it just because someone at NHQ said you could. Literally read the source document.

I had a similar problem with the helpdesk when I asked a question about the "CAP Ballcap". They essentially quoted a regulation from another section that applies to a different uniform combination and not the one that was specifically in the section for the flight duty uniform. (They were quoting for the BDU at the time).

Bottom line, we're all human and the folks answering these tickets may not actually know how to read a reg. They may go from an interpretation from someone else.

No matter, I think it goes back to how clunky the reg is written.

[Imouttahere]

I'm at a total loss of understanding how an article is authorized for wear via support ticket (whether NHQ or whomever) while the black-and-white text of the published regulation says completely otherwise.

The black watch cap is NOT authorized for wear with the ABU; BDU only.

Don't do it just because someone at NHQ said you could. Literally read the source document.

I'm not doing anything. I left that god awful uniform when I left active duty.   I'm just passing on what was provided to me. So let's take it down a notch and calm down.

My guidance to the members of my squadron was foliage green for  ABU's and no black per the reg.


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[NovemberWhiskey]

Referring way back to the first page of the thread, this is also inconsistent with advice previously received from the help desk:

I opened a ticket last summer - The reply from HQ was:

"Only a green watch cap can be worn with the ABU uniform (paragraph 6.2.5 of CAPR 39-2)."

It's like the standard advice given if you hear something you don't like from customer service: hang up and call back again.

[Eclipse]

Referring way back to the first page of the thread, this is also inconsistent with advice previously received from the help desk:

I opened a ticket last summer - The reply from HQ was:

"Only a green watch cap can be worn with the ABU uniform (paragraph 6.2.5 of CAPR 39-2)."

It's like the standard advice given if you hear something you don't like from customer service: hang up and call back again.

OK, that's hilarious right there.

[Shuman 14]

Seriously, this thread is a bunch of old men, old enough to be my father old men, arguing over a black versus foliage green fleece watch cap instead of worrying about a cadet getting frostbite on their ears!!!!

Guess what, in the real USAF, USSF and US Army you can wear black or coyote brown fleece watch caps with OCPs.

Guess what, in the National Guard and Reserve, Gortex parkas, fleece liners and watch caps are organizational issue clothing (i.e. field gear) wear of ACU and/or ABU pattern parkas and foliage green liners are still authorized for wear with OCPs. Why? The supply system to replace all the organizational clothing with OCP pattern and coyote brown hasn't caught up with the Guard and Reserve.

Use some gosh darn COMMON SENSE. National has spoken, maybe not in the manner that certain curmudgeon old complainers would prefer but they have issued an answer... black watch caps are authorized... accept it and move on.

End of rant.

[Eclipse]

Seriously, this thread is a bunch of old men, old enough to be my father old men, arguing over a black versus foliage green fleece watch cap instead of worrying about a cadet getting frostbite on their ears!!!!

This is demonstrably untrue by just reading the actual thread.

The only properly authorized cap is green.  There is no ambiguity to this.

No cadets ears should be cold because those "on the spot" allowances are accommodated
through properly published regulations.

What some other service allows is completely irrelevant to what CAP allows.

[Shuman 14]

Seriously, this thread is a bunch of old men, old enough to be my father old men, arguing over a black versus foliage green fleece watch cap instead of worrying about a cadet getting frostbite on their ears!!!!

This is demonstrably untrue by just reading the actual thread.

The only properly authorized cap is green.  There is no ambiguity to this.

No cadets ears should be cold because those "on the spot" allowances are accommodated
through properly published regulations.

What some other service allows is completely irrelevant to what CAP allows.

And a statement just came down from National, through an approved communication channel, that states otherwise.

I suggest you follow that communication channel directive and address your questions and/or concerns up it instead of increasing the warm Co2 content of this thread.

[Eclipse]

An a statement just came down from National, through an approved communication channel, that states otherwise.

This channel has been proven to be unreliable at best, including in this very
thread about this very topic.

Insisting otherwise simply shows a level of inexperience with both this channel and CAP generally,
and makes the point that members will seek out and accept the answer they want, regardless of
the source, as long as they can put a "I heard" in front of it.

[Shuman 14]

I'm my Squadron's Safety Officer, I'll put my cadet's un-frostbitten ears ahead of some silly uniform regulation any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

BTW, the "you have no experience" response you throw out all the time when you thump your chest and stir the gorilla dust is wearing thin. Very thin. Just saying.

[Eclipse]

I'm my Squadron's Safety Officer, I'll put my cadet's un-frostbitten ears ahead of some silly uniform regulation any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Which is what the regs and this thread have been saying the whole time.

39-1 is the oracle when people agree with it and a "silly uniform reg" when they don't.

[heliodoc]

Wow

When it comes to winter WX and cadets and availability or not of uniform items.....

NUB might want to look at the realities of the world outside of the wire at NHQ/Maxwell

Inner city and tribal squadrons may or may not have that traditional "Guard and AF AD Base" sponsorship

CAPR 39-1 (approx 154 pages) versus CAPR 60-3(34 pages) tells me quite a bit about 80 yrs and the mission and what's really important in CAP

[PHall]

Wow

When it comes to winter WX and cadets and availability or not of uniform items.....

NUB might want to look at the realities of the world outside of the wire at NHQ/Maxwell

Inner city and tribal squadrons may or may not have that traditional "Guard and AF AD Base" sponsorship

CAPR 39-1 (approx 154 pages) versus CAPR 60-3(34 pages) tells me quite a bit about 80 yrs and the mission and what's really important in CAP

What "Guard and AF AD Base" sponsorship?  Even units that actually meet on a base don't get any "sponsorship" from the base.

[heliodoc]

Alright

Wrong terminology "sponsorship"  My mistake. Ever make one?

Maybe Congress need to re-charter us like JROTC with some real goodies and expectations like everyone discussing the proverbial CIF issues...that would put a whole new onus on CAP.

Again, my mistake.  We get noticed on our base and  2 crates of ABUs were "sponsored" to us before the trip to DRMO and the rag bin....LOLOLOL

[heliodoc]

BTW' that photo is that of a Squadron of a very famous former Region Commander who ought know better than the rest of us about proper uniform wear and the "ability to get uniform supplies" when many of us already knew how

[TheSkyHornet]

BTW' that photo is that of a Squadron of a very famous former Region Commander who ought know better than the rest of us about proper uniform wear and the "ability to get uniform supplies" when many of us already knew how

Not tracking...

[etodd]

image credit to: https://fremonttribune.com/news/local/watch-now-civil-air-patrol-honors-fremont-military-graves-with-wreaths-across-america/article_ba133e1d-775f-5a2b-8dbe-1a8b4aff2f2c.html

From a fashion viewpoint, the caps and the gloves and boots all match nicely.

[SarDragon]

BTW' that photo is that of a Squadron of a very famous former Region Commander who ought know better than the rest of us about proper uniform wear and the "ability to get uniform supplies" when many of us already knew how

If it's the picture I'm thinking of, from Middle Atlantic Region, it was taken during the test wear period prior to formal adoption. There were several combinations worn that were not subsequently adopted.

That said, we're done here. Once again, civility has gone down the drain.

Click.