Watch Cap Clarification

[Eclipse]

Not even "technically" - it's not a unit's problem, and the idea that it is causes
a lot of misunderstanding (at a minimum).

39-1 is essentially a 163-page unfunded mandate that focus' on affectation
over mission execution or inclusion.

Why would the USAF fund uniforms (beyond what is already appropriated?), as the
organization is regularly reminded, CAP is not a part of the USAF, and cadets
are never "Total Force" by design.

JROTC is a DOD program, funded to the tune of ~$428mm a year (for all the branches)
of which the AFJROTC gets about $100MM Source: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/natsec/IF11313.pdf
(Which makes it even more laughable when the USAF wants to use already strained and limited
CAP resources for AFJROTC and ROTC o-rides and flight training)

As to Wing managing uniform issue - considering the logistics of getting a uniform
6-7+ hours away, the units near HQ will have all the stuff, and the edge will still be
on their own.

[PHall]

Some of the issue here is that this goes back to uniforms being a squadron matter.

Technically, its an individual member matter.  If a squadron or a wing wants to try to accumulate a uniform supply, they can, but are under no obligation to do so. 

That being said, why can't the Air Force directly supply uniforms to CAP?  Maybe someone that has been buying stuff more recently can do the math, but the in the scheme of the AF budget, it should be do-able.  Either for cadets, seniors, or both.  Out of curiosity, do JROTC cadets buy their own uniforms? 

Say they did, I know that many squadrons wouldn't have the space to store adequate uniforms, but it should be something that most Wings could probably manage. 

Sure, I understand that if the AF can get people to volunteer their time and outfit themselves that would be preferable, but it sure does introduce a lot of issues. 

JROTC cadets are issued their uniforms, but have to turn them in at the end of the school year or if they leave the program. The uniforms remain government property.

[N6RVT]

That being said, why can't the Air Force directly supply uniforms to CAP?  Maybe someone that has been buying stuff more recently can do the math, but the in the scheme of the AF budget, it should be do-able.  Either for cadets, seniors, or both.  Out of curiosity, do JROTC cadets buy their own uniforms?

Such a program would have to be linked to some achievement that indicated the member is staying.  I can tell you from extensive experience that the percentage of members renewing after the first year doesn't support that expense.

JROTC is issued equipment, however they are accountable for it and do turn it back in later, at least the items that are recoverable (socks & underwear are not returned).

[TheSkyHornet]

Army JROTC is wearing OCP uniforms.
Sea Cadets are now wearing NWU Type IIIs.
Marine Corps JROTC are in MARPAT.
AFJROTC is wearing ABU with sage or coyote boots.

Let's bear in mind here that the majority of the members (above) are meeting during the school year, which is why items are distributed, collected, and redistributed based on the school calendar cycle.

That said, CAP does not receive funding to provide cadets with uniforms. With that being the case, I don't know why we wouldn't be using the most current, most available uniform supply to have reasonable, affordable access to uniform materials. By resorting to outdated, inactive uniforms, we're looking for handouts and donations amid an ever-shrinking supply cache which is going to become rarer and more impossible to locate items. You can't even get short-size ABU pants from distributors anymore (I looked just yesterday, and I'll soon be SOL just the same as the cadets...yes, there are still a few shorter than I am...).

The fix to me here is to bite the bullet every few years when the military changes its uniforms, for CAP to change with them and start asking members to go purchase new items.

This isn't a matter of how expensive it is on the member; although, it always seems to be portrayed that way. The problem isn't the cost: it's the availability.

Inventories are going to be used up. Items are going to be worn out. You aren't going to find any ABUs anyway after the next several years, if not sooner. Units aren't sharing what they have, and to tell a member "It's not my problem; go find a uniform supply" is going to continue to result in increased attrition.

Whether it's idolizing the uniform or not, most cadets join CAP because they like the military appeal, which includes the wear of a military-style uniform. How does that work when we're telling members that we don't have uniforms for them, and there's no where to go and get them anymore?

eBay is not a uniform supply. That's a panic resort.

[Capt Thompson]

Some of the issue here is that this goes back to uniforms being a squadron matter.

Technically, its an individual member matter.  If a squadron or a wing wants to try to accumulate a uniform supply, they can, but are under no obligation to do so. 

That being said, why can't the Air Force directly supply uniforms to CAP?  Maybe someone that has been buying stuff more recently can do the math, but the in the scheme of the AF budget, it should be do-able.  Either for cadets, seniors, or both.  Out of curiosity, do JROTC cadets buy their own uniforms? 

Say they did, I know that many squadrons wouldn't have the space to store adequate uniforms, but it should be something that most Wings could probably manage. 

Sure, I understand that if the AF can get people to volunteer their time and outfit themselves that would be preferable, but it sure does introduce a lot of issues. 

JROTC cadets are issued their uniforms, but have to turn them in at the end of the school year or if they leave the program. The uniforms remain government property.

This^^

When I was in JROTC, the Supply NCO maintained supply sheets for every Cadet in the program. When we left the program, either by graduating or just dropping the class, they sent a letter of all of the items they needed back. If they weren't turned in, they sent the bill to the school to add to your account, and you couldn't graduate without turning the items in. Aside from shoes and boots, covers, and my 4 year old field worn BDU's, and then ribbons and badges, everything else was turned back in and reissued several times over until it became unserviceable.

[Shuman 14]

So excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

[TheSkyHornet]

So excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

The Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

And the voucher only applies to Blues, not utilities. In fact, National needs to update the website, as it continues to point to BDUs as a uniform option.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/newcadet/curryblues

[Shuman 14]

So excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

The Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

And the voucher only applies to Blues, not utilities. In fact, National needs to update the website, as it continues to point to BDUs as a uniform option.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/newcadet/curryblues

Okay, so CAP is paying for it and Vanguard gives us a discount.

Perhaps we should approach the USAF and ask them to come up with a similar voucher program for OCPs that they pay for. That way we can start getting Cadets into field uniforms before encampments.

While I'd welcome free uniforms for seniors, I think we should concentrate on cadets first. The USAF is more likely to play ball there first.

[TheSkyHornet]

So excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

The Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

And the voucher only applies to Blues, not utilities. In fact, National needs to update the website, as it continues to point to BDUs as a uniform option.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/newcadet/curryblues

Okay, so CAP is paying for it and Vanguard gives us a discount.

Perhaps we should approach the USAF and ask them to come up with a similar voucher program for OCPs that they pay for. That way we can start getting Cadets into field uniforms before encampments.

While I'd welcome free uniforms for seniors, I think we should concentrate on cadets first. The USAF is more likely to play ball there first.

I'm not sure that it's a matter that we need free uniforms. We have those now.

The problem is the availability of the supply. We won't have any ABUs available in the soon future. That's what happens when you go with a uniform that nobody else on the planet is continuing to wear and while it was already extremely difficult to find equipment in the matching pattern.

Might as well start wearing chocolate chip camo.

[Eclipse]

The Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

But where is the funding coming from ultimately?

The Curry Voucher program was the replacement for the "Free Cadet Uniform" program
which predated Vanguard (and often didn't provide anything due to funding issues).

http://web.archive.org/web/20150312180151/http://capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/
Warning - shield your eyes, the goggle do nothing!

When the Curry Voucher and CEAP (which provides field uniforms) programs were spun up, respectively, they
were marketed as being "funded by the USAF", but I've never been able to pin down the actual
source.  Are they part of the managed appropriation?  A USAF line item?

If they are just Vanguard give-backs, that points further to both VG prices being too high
and members subsidizing other members uniforms, which to me is not cricket.

Also, FWIW, there is / was a proposal to make Curry Voucher needs based:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Curry_Uniform_Program_EC13F6BF7528E.pdf
Though there doesn't appear to be a funding source indicated for that, either (or I missed it).

[Eclipse]

I'm not sure that it's a matter that we need free uniforms. We have those now.

To be fair, CAP provides a partial uniform. There's about $100 additional cost for the
blues alone.

The problem is the availability of the supply.

Did VG stop manufacturing the pink knock-offs?  If not, then supply is less of an issue,
though adults who don't shop at VG, or prefer their ABUs less pink might have issues.

There's an easy dark-blue fix for this whole conversation.

[NovemberWhiskey]

A full "blues" uniform costs about $150

... according to the NHQ site. By my reckoning, delivered to an address in NY, a full Class B USAF-style uniform for a cadet airman including all the distinctive items (i.e. not the white undershirt or the black socks) is a minimum of $246.06 at this point.

• Civil Air Patrol Cap Device: Cadet Enlisted - Flight
• Civil Air Patrol Uniform: Flight Cap: Airman
• Civil Air Patrol Name Plate: Cadet
• Civil Air Patrol Cadet Grade Insignia: Airman - chevron
• Air Force Belt: Blue Elastic with Mirror Finish Buckle and Tip - Standard
• Patent Leather Dress Shoes
• Civil Air Patrol Uniform: Short Sleeve Dress Shirt
• Civil Air Patrol Uniform: Trouser

[TheSkyHornet]

Also, FWIW, there is / was a proposal to make Curry Voucher needs based:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Curry_Uniform_Program_EC13F6BF7528E.pdf
Though there doesn't appear to be a funding source indicated for that, either (or I missed it).

Which implies that we may not see any substantial uniform changes in 2022, or, if so, that they're not being communicated with the other directorates at the National level.

Vanguard being the only supplier of "new" ABUs is a real problem, particularly in how the ABUs are manufactured and sized for sale category. Uniforms are not coming in standard sizes anymore, and they're being cut to a "general size" rather than to individual sizing needs (e.g., pant inseam is now aligned with the waist rather than independent). They're also available only in single-gender cut (male).

A full set of OCPs, at a "low" cost, namely due to the high price of "cheap" boots, is about $260.

[Spam]

Ah, yes, the "Free Cadet Uniform" program.

Soon to be followed by the "Uniform Free Cadet" program (as I'm afraid I'm suggesting with respects to cold weather gear).

Eventually followed by the "Cadet Free Cadet Program"?


<sarc mode off>
Spam

[Eclipse]

Which implies that we may not see any substantial uniform changes in 2022

With the majority of the organization back on lock down for at least 1/2 the year, it's probably
even money or better that NHQ actually will spend time and effort re-hashing the multiform.

Clearly that's where the focus should be, amirite?

[RiverAux]

I would be perfectly happy with uniforms being provided free to members from the AF through CAP and with CAP retaining ownership.  Yeah, not all the uniforms would get back when a cadet or senior leaves, but most probably would. 

[Ned]

So excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

The Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

And the voucher only applies to Blues, not utilities. In fact, National needs to update the website, as it continues to point to BDUs as a uniform option.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/newcadet/curryblues

Sorry to be late to another classic CAPTalk uniform discussion, but the facts are that the USAF funds the Curry Voucher Program, normally at a little over $600,000 a year.  It is not corporate (dues) money, but money specifically provided and fenced by our AF colleagues specifically for cadet uniforms.

Just as the AF funded the Free Cadet Uniform program for years.

We are grateful for their support, as we believe that their support allows young men and women to participate in our program who might not otherwise have been able to do so.

And I was just briefed that the allocation for next year will be larger than the $600k baseline.

So, join me in thanking the taxpayers and the USAF for funding the uniforms for thousands of cadets.

DM me with questions, if you'd like.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

[NIN]

I would be perfectly happy with uniforms being provided free to members from the AF through CAP and with CAP retaining ownership.  Yeah, not all the uniforms would get back when a cadet or senior leaves, but most probably would. 

The sad fact is, what you'll hear from units is "We don't want to keep track of uniforms."

Dunno about you, but BITD (which was, in my instance, a Tuesday) we had unit supplies and nobody complained about having to keep track of them because it was *awesome* that we had stuff we could hand out to cadets (and seniors).  Just give it back when you're done.

Now did all of it come back? No. But we got the majority of them back. (I have an squadron-issue OD-green field jacket from my cadet days hanging up downstairs... shhhhh, don't tell my old squadron supply officer, he may come after me for it!)

This past year we received a huge influx of ABUs from our Air Guard partners. Every unit got 60 sets of ABUs and were instructed to donate their old BDUs.  There was some "we don't want them" push back. Not much, but some.

[Eclipse]

The sad fact is, what you'll hear from units is "We don't want to keep track of uniforms."

Historically CAP (and by association the USAF) has been somewhat excited zealous adamant meh, what the heck, a HUGE PITA about missing items despite having zero book value.

The amount of my life I'll never get back doing ROS' for broken copiers (NEVER, EVER, indicate "found on base" for anything), $6 power adapters, and typewriters is actually somewhat flabbergasting. (while at the same time
allowing radio equipment to be unrecovered from former members because "reasons").

So unless there would be a check box for "Johnny kept it, and his mom won't answer the phone", I'd be reluctant to
accept anything that had to be kept on the books.

There's also the issue that a non-trivial number (seemingly more each year) of units meet somewhere
that has zero storage space.

[Eclipse]

the USAF funds the Curry Voucher Program, normally at a little over $600,000

So...math.

According to this document:  https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Curry_Uniform_Program_EC13F6BF7528E.pdf
Maj Hallihan asserts that the expectation is 12k new cadets annually (if that's actually the case, the churn is
a lot higher), with a 20% non-redeem rate, which would mean that the program is underfunded by at about $360k.

So there's that.

The other question is what happens to the overage of funding in years where CAP doesn't get 6000 new cadets?
Or is that bundled into CEAP?