Crisis Service Ribbon

[Capt Thompson]

New Crisis Service Ribbon approved today by Gen Phelka, change letter at:

https://presspage-production-content.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/1913/finalinterimchangeletter39-3crisisserviceawarddec2021corrected.pdf?86212&fbclid=IwAR2FiiPCtbn_g5fQx8fLSxCx_ct4Fs881Kn_Hk9_dl988TxuVWmfWSducbo

[Eclipse]

Battle streamers to follow.

[rdmcii]

Before this gets locked, I have a question:

Paragraph 2 states: "This award ranks immediately before the Red Service Ribbon in the order of precedence.", yet it is shown as immediately ABOVE the RSR on attachment 2. Which is it?

[Capt Thompson]

Props to the folks that take care of the McChord Rack Builder for already having this, I wonder if they get advanced notice of these changes?

[Capt Thompson]

Before this gets locked, I have a question:

Paragraph 2 states: "This award ranks immediately before the Red Service Ribbon in the order of precedence.", yet it is shown as immediately ABOVE the RSR on attachment 2. Which is it?

Correct, above the RSR would be before it in order of precedence, as you would count top down.

[Eclipse]

Paragraph 2 states: "This award ranks immediately before the Red Service Ribbon in the order of precedence.", yet it is shown as immediately ABOVE the RSR on attachment 2. Which is it?

I'm missing the confusion.

Before it and above it are the same thing in this context.

[Eclipse]

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/civil-air-patrol-ribbon-national-crisis-senior-and-cadet

[Capt Thompson]

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/civil-air-patrol-ribbon-national-crisis-senior-and-cadet

Would have been nice if they still had the 15% off going today, I have about 40 I will need to order for the Squadron.

[PHall]

It's the CAP version of the National Defense Service Medal. The award criteria is almost the same as the NDSM.

[rdmcii]

"I'm missing the confusion.

Before it and above it are the same thing in this context."

I see where you are coming from; I'm thinking bottom up, you're thinking top down.

[TheSkyHornet]

"I'm missing the confusion.

Before it and above it are the same thing in this context."

I see where you are coming from; I'm thinking bottom up, you're thinking top down.

In order of precedence, before means next higher

[TheSkyHornet]

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/civil-air-patrol-ribbon-national-crisis-senior-and-cadet

Would have been nice if they still had the 15% off going today, I have about 40 I will need to order for the Squadron.

You can still get 10% off with the promo code: FBDEC2021

[baronet68]

Before this gets locked, I have a question:

Paragraph 2 states: "This award ranks immediately before the Red Service Ribbon in the order of precedence.", yet it is shown as immediately ABOVE the RSR on attachment 2. Which is it?

The McChord Rack Builder shows the proper precedence.

[Fubar]

Would have been nice if they still had the 15% off going today, I have about 40 I will need to order for the Squadron.

I doubt the timing was a coincidence.

[Shuman 14]

It's the CAP version of the National Defense Service Medal. The award criteria is almost the same as the NDSM.

Yes and no. If this "crisis" period ends, and they stop awarding it, and then a new "crisis" occurs, and they start awarding it again... then I would agree, it's the CAP version of the NDSM.

If they award it for just this "crisis", and it never gets awarded again, then it is the COVID Campaign Medal.

It does kinda look like a NDSM... with the middle colors reserved. Just saying.

[N6RVT]

It's the CAP version of the National Defense Service Medal. The award criteria is almost the same as the NDSM.

Yes and no. If this "crisis" period ends, and they stop awarding it, and then a new "crisis" occurs, and they start awarding it again... then I would agree, it's the CAP version of the NDSM.If they award it for just this "crisis", and it never gets awarded again, then it is the COVID Campaign Medal.It does kinda look like a NDSM... with the middle colors reserved. Just saying.

Here are both of them for comparison.

[Stonewall]

Would have been nice if they still had the 15% off going today, I have about 40 I will need to order for the Squadron.

There's always the monthly 10% discount. Not much, but it's something.

[LSThiker]

It's the CAP version of the National Defense Service Medal. The award criteria is almost the same as the NDSM.

It does kinda look like a NDSM... with the middle colors reserved. Just saying.

Here are both of them for comparison.

It is more appropriately similar in design to the US Public Health Crisis Response Medal, replaced above.

[SarDragon]

From a reliable source:

Scarlet, Old Glory Blue, Golden Yellow and White are in the National Defense Service Medal, and reflect the nation wide crisis, Purple from DOD Humanitarian Service Medal, and Silver for CAP (TIOH Color Palette).

[N6RVT]

It is more appropriately similar in design to the US Public Health Crisis Response Medal, replaced above.

Agreed - just the inner two colors reversed from the looks of it.  The criteria for awarding it more matches the disaster relief ribbon, whereas ours is more like the army service ribbon as you get it just for joining the organization.  This will be the first ribbon anyone gets, even before the membership ribbon for level one.

[PHall]

Yep, in theory you've earned this ribbon as soon as you show up in e-services. Just like the NDSM...

[Eclipse]

Yep, in theory you've earned this ribbon as soon as you show up in e-services. Just like the NDSM...

Same as the AW-FOUI.

[SarDragon]

Yep, in theory you've earned this ribbon as soon as you show up in e-services. Just like the NDSM...

Same as the AW-FOUI.

But not all of us are allowed to wear the AW-FOUI. "The AFOEA ribbon is authorized for wear only on the CAP Air Force style blue uniform combinations."

[etodd]

Am I reading this correctly?  Everyone who simply kept paying their dues the last couple years is entitled to a new participation ribbon called "Crisis Service Ribbon"?

[Eclipse]

But not all of us are allowed to wear the AW-FOUI. "The AFOEA ribbon is authorized for wear only on the CAP Air Force style blue uniform combinations."

Am I reading this correctly?  Everyone who simply kept paying their dues the last couple years is entitled to a new participation ribbon called "Crisis Service Ribbon"?

Both of these things are true.

[Shuman 14]

Not really the place, but I renew my objection to the denial of wearing US Armed Forces decorations on a CAP Corporate Uniform.

I know dozens of Law Enforcement, Fire Department and other Emergency Service organizations that allow the wear of Military Decorations on their uniforms.

I routinely participate in the Color Guard for my Local American Legion post and we wear military decorations on our uniforms. The same goes for the VWF, AMVETS, Catholic War Veterans, etc.

Each Branch has published regulations for wearing Military Decorations on civilian clothing.

The CAP prohibition is patently absurd.

It is also disrespectful to those Veterans within our ranks who are denied the opportunity to wear the decorations they earned in defense of our Great Nation.

End of rant. Now back to our regular programming.

[Luis R. Ramos]

 
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Bravo.

[Ned]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

It was and is the opinion and decision of our AF colleagues.  I had multiple discussions with the AF JAG responsible for the opinion, and tried to show her why her opinion was not well reasoned.

I was insufficiently persuasive.

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

[N6RVT]

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

I have only been to one activity where uniform regs were actually enforced, and I never saw that IC again.  I have seen people doing online briefings in the blue & white uniform as recently as this year.  National recruiting videos show a pilot wearing a polo shirt with blue jeans.  I have been to meetings where there were 30+ people present, everyone wearing a sage green flight jacket over a polo shirt.  I see Khaki pants worn with the polo shirt about as often as I see grey, and grey cargo pants worn with the aviator shirt more often than not.

They don't actually control it, as there are no consequences for ignoring the uniform regulations.

[Eclipse]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

The you don't present or accept an award that arguably 1/2 the adult membership is ineligible to ever wear.

I have no issue with the prohibition of military decs on corporate uniforms, frankly I'd just as soon
people only wore relevent decs and badges on any CAP uniform, but regardless, either an exception should have been granted for CAP members, or the award politely turned down. (Or simply awarded to the organization for the national flag, and not the members, which was probably the actual appropriate answer, anyway).

Nothing says "retention" better then a member in full service dress who does little to anything but write a check standing next to an A-Lister who is away from his family 8 weeks a year for CAP looking at that shiny AW-FOUI while wearing his real estate jacket.

[Capt Thompson]

It's the CAP version of the National Defense Service Medal. The award criteria is almost the same as the NDSM.

Yes and no. If this "crisis" period ends, and they stop awarding it, and then a new "crisis" occurs, and they start awarding it again... then I would agree, it's the CAP version of the NDSM.

If they award it for just this "crisis", and it never gets awarded again, then it is the COVID Campaign Medal.

It does kinda look like a NDSM... with the middle colors reserved. Just saying.

If you read the change letter, there are provisions for multiple awards, so if say 5 years from now there is another global pandemic or something else deemed a crisis, they could start awarding them again, in which case a clasp would be added for anyone who served during both periods.

Also, for new members the awards will be added monthly going forward, so a Cadet could theoretically earn their Curry before the Crisis ribbon, but it's unlikely. Someone that pays their dues but doesn't show up for a single day would still earn the ribbon.

[Shuman 14]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

It was and is the opinion and decision of our AF colleagues.  I had multiple discussions with the AF JAG responsible for the opinion, and tried to show her why her opinion was not well reasoned.

I was insufficiently persuasive.

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

Col Ned,

How long ago was this? You say you were not persuasive, in what format was the recommendation presented? Informal conversation? Formal discussion? Formal Presentation? Written Brief?

Every Branch (except maybe the USMC, they rarely change their uniforms) seems to hold a Uniform Board a least once annually.

CAP should be holding one each year as well and be taking those Board recommendations to CAP-USAF.

This is how you politely "poke the bear" and keep bringing up issues like Military Awards on Corporate Uniforms, OCPs, two-piece flightsuits, etc. so when new personnel rotate into positions at CAP-USAF we might get a new answer.

Seriously, no one but us is wearing ABUs anymore!

Will they say we have to change our whites and greys because they resemble the "proposed" Space Force Class B uniform too closely (i.e. White pilot shirt, Grey dress trousers, and USAF Blue tie)?

Sorry for the rant, but it always seems CAP is behind the power curve when it comes to uniforms.

[PHall]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

It was and is the opinion and decision of our AF colleagues.  I had multiple discussions with the AF JAG responsible for the opinion, and tried to show her why her opinion was not well reasoned.

I was insufficiently persuasive.

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

Col Ned,

How long ago was this? You say you were not persuasive, in what format was the recommendation presented? Informal conversation? Formal discussion? Formal Presentation? Written Brief?

Every Branch (except maybe the USMC, they rarely change their uniforms) seems to hold a Uniform Board a least once annually.

CAP should be holding one each year as well and be taking those Board recommendations to CAP-USAF.

This is how you politely "poke the bear" and keep bringing up issues like Military Awards on Corporate Uniforms, OCPs, two-piece flightsuits, etc. so when new personnel rotate into positions at CAP-USAF we might get a new answer.

Seriously, no one but us is wearing ABUs anymore!

Will they say we have to change our whites and greys because they resemble the "proposed" Space Force Class B uniform too closely (i.e. White pilot shirt, Grey dress trousers, and USAF Blue tie)?

Sorry for the rant, but it always seems CAP is behind the power curve when it comes to uniforms.

What part of this was not a CAP decision but a USAF decision did you not understand?
We wear the "AF Style Uniform" at the Air Force's pleasure. Their uniform, their rules.

[THRAWN]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

It was and is the opinion and decision of our AF colleagues.  I had multiple discussions with the AF JAG responsible for the opinion, and tried to show her why her opinion was not well reasoned.

I was insufficiently persuasive.

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

Col Ned,

How long ago was this? You say you were not persuasive, in what format was the recommendation presented? Informal conversation? Formal discussion? Formal Presentation? Written Brief?

Every Branch (except maybe the USMC, they rarely change their uniforms) seems to hold a Uniform Board a least once annually.

CAP should be holding one each year as well and be taking those Board recommendations to CAP-USAF.

This is how you politely "poke the bear" and keep bringing up issues like Military Awards on Corporate Uniforms, OCPs, two-piece flightsuits, etc. so when new personnel rotate into positions at CAP-USAF we might get a new answer.

Seriously, no one but us is wearing ABUs anymore!

Will they say we have to change our whites and greys because they resemble the "proposed" Space Force Class B uniform too closely (i.e. White pilot shirt, Grey dress trousers, and USAF Blue tie)?

Sorry for the rant, but it always seems CAP is behind the power curve when it comes to uniforms.

What part of this was not a CAP decision but a USAF decision did you not understand?
We wear the "AF Style Uniform" at the Air Force's pleasure. Their uniform, their rules.

The question is if that should be true for corporate unis as well. There is no debate on the AF style question.

[Shuman 14]

What part of this was not a CAP decision but a USAF decision did you not understand?
We wear the "AF Style Uniform" at the Air Force's pleasure. Their uniform, their rules.

Well, that's a very obtuse statement.

Are USAF Officers and Senior NCOs gods? THOU SHALL NOT QUESTION THE WORDS OF THE gods!

No one, least of all me, suggested changing the USAF style uniform without gaining CAP-USAF approval first.

It never hurts to ask again... and again... and again... or change never happens.

In thirty years plus in the Military I've seen this happen time and time again. Wait for a change in leadership, ask again, and sometimes you get a new result.

How do you know if their pleasure changes if you DON'T ASK. The USAF holds a Uniform Board every year, it solicits input from every Air Force organization, Active, Reserve, and National Guard. It reviews suggestions and recommendation and every year it publishes its findings.  Sometimes there are changes approved, sometimes there are not.

All I'm suggesting is, as part of the "total force", CAP should make suggestions to that Board, especially where it can effect CAP.

Following your logic, thirty years from now, CAP will still be wearing ABUs with black boots provided by the sole provider left in the world... Vanguard. I'm sure the costs will have come way down by then.

BTW, a CAP corporate uniform is NOT a Air Force Uniform. Just saying.

[baronet68]

BTW, a CAP corporate uniform is NOT a Air Force Uniform. Just saying.

There was a former national commander (his name shall not be uttered in polite company) who shared a very similar opinion... and the Air Force strongly disagreed. 

[SarDragon]

The AFOEA ribbon is a USAF ribbon, which wear is controlled by them. If they no, then so be it. Here's the current AF Uni Reg - DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2903, 7 FEBRUARY 2020
Incorporating Change 3, 3 December 2021, Certified Current 3 December 2021 .

It appears that there is NO specific prohibition on wearing awards on civilian clothing. There is guidance on proper wear and appropriate occasions.

Maybe it's time to revisit this with CAP-USAF.

[PHall]

The AFOEA ribbon is a USAF ribbon, which wear is controlled by them. If they no, then so be it. Here's the current AF Uni Reg - DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2903, 7 FEBRUARY 2020
Incorporating Change 3, 3 December 2021, Certified Current 3 December 2021 .

It appears that there is NO specific prohibition on wearing awards on civilian clothing. There is guidance on proper wear and appropriate occasions.

Maybe it's time to revisit this with CAP-USAF.

Hey, new National Commander, maybe it's time for a new conversation with CAP-USAF.

[NIN]

I do think its awful that our members who wear corporates cannot wear this ribbon. I personally do not wear ribbons on my corporates, but it really shouldn't be an issue.

I also think that Bob's suggestion to "politely decline" an award from the Air Force, while making a superb sound bite, doesn't take in to account things like reality.

As an FYI, the newly updated USAF uniform regulation still includes the prohibition on mixing military and civilian items.

1.4.9. While in civilian attire. Unless prescribed in this instruction, do not mix or wear a
combination of civilian and military clothing or unique uniform items e.g. rank insignia, cap
devices, badges, and other United States or Air Force insignia, devices, buttons, etc.
Exception: Tie tacks and lapel pins are authorized when wearing business attire.

I believe other services have similar prohibitions in their uniform manuals.  I recall that AR670-1 included such language, and I'm kind of betting the Navy and Marine Corps do as well. This is not a new thing, nor an Air Force-specific thing.

With regard to other organizations wearing military awards on their uniforms:  The VFW, the Legion, or some local police force are NOT under any sort of direction or control of the US Air Force. Its not like the AF is going to give a retired MSgt an Article 15 for hanging his AFCOMM off on his blazer at the local VFW meetings.

CAP, however, falls under the direction of the Air Force regarding this sort of thing. The Air Force allows CAP to wear its uniforms with certain modifications. While they don't specifically control the wear of our corporate uniforms, we're still under their direction, and their broad uniform policy prohibits wear of military awards (of which the AFOEA is) on "civilian clothing" (which our corporate uniforms are).

Now, should we be pursuing an exception to policy? I personally believe we should. Allowing the wear of an award presented to the organization, by ALL the members of the organization, should be a moot point. 

Is this something worth pursuing? Yes, to a point. Its likely not "the hill to die on" with our parent service.  The easiest way to get around this is a letter of exception from SECAF and we write it in to 39-3/39-1. The next easiest thing might be to get the USAF to recognize our corporate uniform as a legit "uniform." (that one seems like it would require far more hoops).

Also, it would be nice if CAP was recognized in AFI 36-2903, either in the introduction ("This publication applies to Department of the Air Force civilian and contract employees and uniformed members of the United States Space Force (USSF), the Regular Air Force (RegAF), the Air Force Reserve (ResAF), and the Air National Guard (ANG) and retired and separated personnel.") or in a way similar to how para 1.2.9 is currently worded.

BTW, the AF did not hold a uniform board for something like five or seven years.

Lastly, while folks do like to throw around "the Total Force" like some magic talisman or free pass to the movies, remember that CAP is still in that odd space where we are only operating as a member of the "Total Force" when executing Air Force-assigned missions. 

[arajca]

Regarding the AFOEA, a simple one line exemption by the AF would cover it. Something like:
Organization awards awarded to Civil Air Patrol covering the entire organization are authorized for wear on Civil Air Patrol distinctive uniforms.

Or a one-time authorization:
The Air Force Organizational Excellence Award awarded to Civil Air Patrol on order ########, is hereby authorized for wear on Civil Air Patrol distinctive uniforms. No other military ribbons or awards are authorized for wear on the Civil Air Patrol distinctive uniforms.

Would that be too much to ask?

[etodd]

It would be nice if threads about how we can look for new missions and reasons for existing, in order to attract new members and grow, would go as long and involved as uniform threads.

Surely some of the AF folks y'all fuss about, see these comments and just shake their heads, wondering about what priorities the average CAP member has.

The AF uses marketing gimmicks like the Total Force campaign, to convince Congress to keep and increase budgets. Seriously. Thats who its geared toward.

As the cell phone team takes over more and more of the saves, and other commercial ventures do more and more of photo missions for FEMA ... you know the AF has to be start wondering of the viability of such a large inventory of Cessnas. At some point Congress will start asking the hard questions. Might be time for the Charter to be rewritten. Primary emphasis on Cadets maybe.

I see tough times ahead, unless all of us members start putting our emphasis of what mission work we can do in the near future.

JMHO thoughts of the morning. Wearing my flame proof suit.

[N6RVT]

As an FYI, the newly updated USAF uniform regulation still includes the prohibition on mixing military and civilian items.

We need to specify a different tie to be worn over the aviator whites then (and stop allowing the USAF cardigan sweater).

Everyone seems to have skipped over my point: nobody is enforcing any of this.  I have seen a continuous stream of what in the actual military would be article 15 actions and literally no consequences.

[Robert Hartigan]

CAP is only an Interim Change letter away from awarding a uniform ribbon for not joining. Why not just affix a bronze mask device to the life saving ribbon?  I think I understand the reasoning for creating the award, but it is going to take more than adding another sku number to the Vangard website to help assauge the impact of COVID on the psyche of the organization. I don't believe another ribbon is going to help unless you are in the ribbon rack building business. SMH. 

[etodd]

Everyone seems to have skipped over my point: nobody is enforcing any of this.  I have seen a continuous stream of what in the actual military would be article 15 actions and literally no consequences.

You looking to whittle our membership down to a tenth of its current low levels? See my post above.  Its not the 1950s any more. Time for new directions. Less emphasis on starched shirts and more emphasis on what missions can we do in the future. I forsee CAP being less military like in the future for seniors. The Cadet program may the primary, or sole, mission in a few years. At which point they could be blended into AFROTC.

[PHall]

As an FYI, the newly updated USAF uniform regulation still includes the prohibition on mixing military and civilian items.

We need to specify a different tie to be worn over the aviator whites then (and stop allowing the USAF cardigan sweater).

Everyone seems to have skipped over my point: nobody is enforcing any of this.  I have seen a continuous stream of what in the actual military would be article 15 actions and literally no consequences.

Actually it is being enforced, but not everywhere and all the time.
I'm willing to bet that if you went to a wing level cadet programs activity you would see a high level of compliance to the uniform wear rules. By both cadets and seniors.
But at an ES activity that is all seniors attending, yeah not-so-much.
The rules are enforced only when the members running an activity make it a point to enforce all of the rules and not just the one's they like.

[NIN]

We need to specify a different tie to be worn over the aviator whites then (and stop allowing the USAF cardigan sweater).

I'm a little weirded out by the cardigan with corps. Its in the reg, but I take your point about the schism..

But a blue tie is, basically, just a blue tie.  I'm pretty sure nobody is getting NJP'd over using their uniform tie incorrectly.

[Spam]

I have to speak to the enforcement issue.

In SER we are blessed (and I am not sarcastic when I say that) with a commander who is serious about uniform enforcement. To the point that at one point as her vice commander she once seriously counseled me on wearing a crew neck undershirt. Which I laughingly replied "have you seen the manly chest hair here" but I then went and bought a 3 pack of V necks.... and redoubled my quiet insistence on adherence to her Commanders Guidance. 

Yes, I am the guy who has sent people home from an activity for insisting that they could wear a civilian coat with USAF style uniforms "for safety". It makes me an A hole, I know, in many eyes. In the past couple of years I have come to dread visiting meetings/activities in the winter time, where I will be required to tell commanders to have their members take off the warm coats, or stay inside (no drill) or go home. That to me is far more serious than discussion on not wearing a Crisis Service Ribbon for which the vast majority of our national members just sat on Zoom meetings.

As I've said many times, uniform compliance is a leading indicator of a compliance mindset. If someone can't be troubled to follow the uniform regs then that's an indicator of a lax attitude in other areas (e.g. cadet protection policy, airmanship standards, etc.). In over 30 years of active CAP service I've seen that to be true far more often than not.

The sad root of the problem though is that corporately, we have completely failed to be PROACTIVE vice REACTIVE to the DoD customers uniform trends, and we still are failing our local members in terms of access to affordable, current generation uniforms and accoutrements. When we hold true to compliance, that "prices out" a significant number of our less wealthy members. When we hold true, it creates a second class citizen effect. And that my friends is purely hell to enforce, if you have a soul.

R/s
Spam

[etodd]

Yes, I am the guy who has sent people home from an activity for insisting that they could wear a civilian coat with USAF style uniforms "for safety"    ........... When we hold true to compliance, that "prices out" a significant number of our less wealthy members. When we hold true, it creates a second class citizen effect. And that my friends is purely hell to enforce, if you have a soul.

Huh?

So was the member you sent home wealthy and could afford it, or poor and you sent him home anyway?

[Eclipse]

So was the member you sent home wealthy and could afford it, or poor and you sent him home anyway?

No they were non-compliant.  Anything else is supposed to be irrelevant.

[biomed441]

On a more related note.... is there a miniature medal that goes along with this or is it a ribbon only?

[SarDragon]

I'm guessing there will eventually be a mini medal. Keep checking the Vanguard catalog.

[SARDOC]

It is more appropriately similar in design to the US Public Health Crisis Response Medal, replaced above.

Agreed - just the inner two colors reversed from the looks of it.  The criteria for awarding it more matches the disaster relief ribbon, whereas ours is more like the army service ribbon as you get it just for joining the organization.  This will be the first ribbon anyone gets, even before the membership ribbon for level one.

The Army Service Ribbon isn't awarded for just entering the service.  To earn that award you must successfully complete and become qualified in a military occupational specialty...More like our Level 1 ribbon.

I did Three years in the National Guard...there was no money to send me to an MOS school, so at the end of my service there no Army Service Ribbon.  I did however get the Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal, for three years honorable service.

[Jester]

I'm willing to bet money on a few things:

- 36-2903's verbiage banning the mixing of civilian and military items is NOT intended to ban the wear of earned military awards on a corporate uniform.  To reach that conclusion is silly, at best.  Especially when we've already pointed to a couple of cases where we require a mixing of military & civilian items in our own regulations regarding the same uniform combination in question.  Come on now.

- The USAF DOES NOT GIVE A CRAP about us.  Most of them don't even know they exist.  I constantly see CAP pointing to the AF as the boogeyman that doesn't like something and therefore we can't do it.  I call shenanigans.  "We still wear black boots and ABUs because the AF wants us to be identifiable as different in low-light conditions!"  Excuse me but huh?  Gotta be identifiable for all those missions we do with the AF where we're garotting enemy sentries under cover of darkness.

A conversation during the Clinton administration that hasn't been revisited since doesn't count.

[Toad1168]

One thing I never have understood is the prohibition with wearing the AFOEA on the mess dress.

[Jester]

One thing I never have understood is the prohibition with wearing the AFOEA on the mess dress.

I assume it's because there's no medal equivalent in the AF and making one just for us would require a lot of effort that's not essential in the grand scheme of things.

We need to cut down mini medals to individual decorations, not every ribbon needing a mini medal equivalent.

[Shuman 14]

There was a former national commander (his name shall not be uttered in polite company) who shared a very similar opinion... and the Air Force strongly disagreed. 

HWSNBN's problem was he ignored the USAF and did many things without seeking their guidance, approval or input.

While I understand the concept of it being easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission, he took it to a whole new level; it's no wonder that his career ended in the crash that it did.

Doing that is not what I'm suggesting,

What I am suggesting is holding a CAP Uniform Board annually, producing a well drafted report of the Board's findings and their recommendation, and then submitting said report to CAP-USAF for their input/recommendations.

It is a polite, by the book, gentle poke of the bear, to hopefully guide them into a different course of action then has happened in the past.

[Shuman 14]

Also, it would be nice if CAP was recognized in AFI 36-2903, either in the introduction ("This publication applies to Department of the Air Force civilian and contract employees and uniformed members of the United States Space Force (USSF), the Regular Air Force (RegAF), the Air Force Reserve (ResAF), and the Air National Guard (ANG) and retired and separated personnel.") or in a way similar to how para 1.2.9 is currently worded.

I absolutely concur.

Simply adding after "(ANG)" ... the Civil Air Patrol (the US Air Force Auxiliary)... and before "and retired" would do wonders. If CAP uniforms need to mentioned more in depth in the Instruction, they can reference CAPR 39-1.

If anything, it might prompt a reader of the Instruction to research CAP and we might gain a new member.

[Shuman 14]

- 36-2903's verbiage banning the mixing of civilian and military items is NOT intended to ban the wear of earned military awards on a corporate uniform.  To reach that conclusion is silly, at best.  Especially when we've already pointed to a couple of cases where we require a mixing of military & civilian items in our own regulations regarding the same uniform combination in question.  Come on now.

I concur that the mixing verbiage is designed to prohibit an Airman from wearing a camouflaged field jacket, complete with name tapes and rank, over his polo shirt and blue jeans when he heads out to the club on a given Friday night...
not to deny a veteran the right to wear his or her earned military decorations on appropriate civilian attire.


Quoting from Medals of America:

"Beginning with Veterans Day 2006, the Secretary of Veteran Affairs urged Veterans to show their pride of service by wearing their medals on Veterans Day. He expressed the hope this display of military decorations, which he called the "Veterans Pride Initiative," would become a traditional part of Veterans Day, Memorial Day, the Fourth of July and other patriotic observances.

For Civilian Wear:
For more formal occasions, it is correct and encouraged by the Veterans Administration to wear miniature decorations and medals. For a black or white tie occasion, the rule is quite simple: if the lapel is wide enough you wear the miniatures on the left lapel. In the case of a shawl lapel on a tuxedo, the miniature medals are worn over the left breast pocket. The center of the holding bar of the bottom row of medals should be parallel to the ground immediately above the pocket. Do not wear a pocket-handkerchief. Miniature medals really do make a handsome statement of patriotic service at weddings and other social events. Miniature ribbons and medals can also be worn on a civilian suit at Veterans' functions, memorial events, formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature.

ARMY:
Army Regulation 670-1, paragraph 30-6, says that former members of the Army (including active duty, reserves, or Army National Guard) may wear medals on civilian clothes (that's "appropriate") on Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at "formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature." "Appropriate" civilian clothes include clothes designed for Veteran and patriotic organizations, such as VFW or American Legion uniforms. You can wear either the full-size or miniature-size medals. You should place the medals and decorations in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to medals worn on the Army uniform.

AIR FORCE:
Air Force Instruction 36-2903, paragraph 4-4 says that honorably discharged and retired Air Force members may wear full-size or miniature medals on civilian clothes on appropriate occasions such as Veterans Day, Memorial Day and Armed Forces Day. Female members may wear full-size or miniature medals on equivalent dress. As with the Army, medals should be placed in the approximate same location and in the manner they are planned on the Air Force uniform.

NAVY:
The Navy Uniform Regulations, Chapter 6, paragraph 61002; subparagraph 7 includes the requirements for wearing Navy decorations and medals on civilian clothes. The regulation authorizes the wear of miniature medals and miniature breast insignia on civilian evening dress (white tie) or civilian dinner dress (black tie) in the same manner as for dinner dress jackets. For non-dress-up-affairs, you may wear miniature replicas of ribbons made in the form of lapel buttons(written before mini-ribbon technology), or ribbons made in rosette form, on the left lapel of civilian clothes. You may also wear miniature-distinguished marksmanship and pistol shot badges as a lapel pin or as part of a tie clasp on civilian clothing.

MARINE CORPS:
The Marine Corps Uniform Regulation, MCO P1020.34G, says that decorations, medals, appropriate ribbon bars, or lapel buttons may be worn on civilian clothes at the individual's discretion. Individuals should ensure that the occasion and the manner of wearing will not reflect discredit on the award. Miniature medals may be worn with civilian evening dress. For non-evening dress, miniature replicas of ribbons made in the form of enameled lapel buttons(written before mini-ribbon technology), or ribbons made in rosette form, may be worn on the left lapel of civilian clothes."

So basically all the Services say you CAN wear military decorations on appropriate civilian clothing.

A police, fire, EMS uniform - appropriate civilian clothing

A tuxedo at a wedding or other social event - appropriate civilian attire

An AL, VFW, AMVETS, CWV or other Veterans' group uniform - appropriate civilian attire

A business suit on Veterans' Day - appropriate civilian attire

A Civil Air Patrol Corporate Uniform - FULL STOP! FORBIDDEN! THAT'S JUST CRAZY TALK!

Does anyone else see how intentionally obtuse this really is? :-(

[Shuman 14]

One thing I never have understood is the prohibition with wearing the AFOEA on the mess dress.

In the Military, awards come in two formats Medals or Ribbons. Medals are worn three ways: Full-sized Medal, Mini-Medal or ribbon only.

Ribbons, generally considered a lesser decoration come solely as a ribbon only and can only be worn one way... as a ribbon.

Now based on the type of uniform being worn dictates how an award in worn.

Work/Combat Uniform - no awards are worn

Service Uniform - ribbons only

Dress Uniform - Full-sized Medals only (In the Naval Services, Ribbon only awards are moved to above the right pocket and Full-sized Medals are worn over the left pocket. In the Army, Unit Awards are ribbon only awards and are always worn on the right side in Service and Dress Uniforms)

Mess Uniform - Mini-medals only

As the AFOEA is a ribbon only award, it is a unit award, it cannot be worn on a Mess Uniform.

Just my opinion, CAP's two unit awards, the National Commander's Unit Citation Award and the Unit Citation Award should never have been made into mini-medals and followed the USAF precedence/tradition and stayed as ribbon only awards.

[PHall]

It is more appropriately similar in design to the US Public Health Crisis Response Medal, replaced above.

Agreed - just the inner two colors reversed from the looks of it.  The criteria for awarding it more matches the disaster relief ribbon, whereas ours is more like the army service ribbon as you get it just for joining the organization.  This will be the first ribbon anyone gets, even before the membership ribbon for level one.

The Army Service Ribbon isn't awarded for just entering the service.  To earn that award you must successfully complete and become qualified in a military occupational specialty...More like our Level 1 ribbon.

I did Three years in the National Guard...there was no money to send me to an MOS school, so at the end of my service there no Army Service Ribbon.  I did however get the Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal, for three years honorable service.

You didn't get a National Defense Service Medal?

[N6RVT]

Everyone seems to have skipped over my point: nobody is enforcing any of this.  I have seen a continuous stream of what in the actual military would be article 15 actions and literally no consequences.

You looking to whittle our membership down to a tenth of its current low levels? See my post above.  Its not the 1950s any more. Time for new directions. Less emphasis on starched shirts and more emphasis on what missions can we do in the future. I forsee CAP being less military like in the future for seniors. The Cadet program may the primary, or sole, mission in a few years. At which point they could be blended into AFROTC.

No.  My point is if the regulations are that universally ignored, it is an embarrassment to the organization to even have them.  It is a very visible way of saying nobody cares and nobody is in control.  And saying 90% of the members would quit is we enforced anything is basically saying the same thing.

[N6RVT]

Just my opinion, CAP's two unit awards, the National Commander's Unit Citation Award and the Unit Citation Award should never have been made into mini-medals and followed the USAF precedence/tradition and stayed as ribbon only awards.

Consider the Jaeger Yeager award - a medal for an online test that takes about 20 minutes.

We do not wear full size medals on anything, and miniature medals are only worn by the 1% of the membership that actually has mess dress, or is wearing them on black tie, which I have not yet seen anyone do.

When I went on Ultrathin I discovered my miniature medal set would cost about $200 - so I do not have those.....

[ed. FTFY]

[Eclipse]

miniature medals are only worn by the 1% of the membership that actually has mess dress

With mini medals now authorized on business suits, one could suppose that this will change somewhat.

[Shuman 14]

Consider the Jaeger award - a medal for an online test that takes about 20 minutes.

We do not wear full size medals on anything, and miniature medals are only worn by the 1% of the membership that actually has mess dress, or is wearing them on black tie, which I have not yet seen anyone do.

When I went on Ultrathin I discovered my miniature medal set would cost about $200 - so I do not have those.....

The German Hunter Award? What's that? :-P

Seriously, I suspect the Yeager Award was a much different endeavor when it was first conceived with a Hard copy textbook and a paper and pencil exam. Even with it being open book, you still needed to know the topic and where in the book to find the specifics.

Today, with a PDF and the "search" function in reader, far easier to pass even by the most aeronautically challenged individual.

Truth be told, I had taken and completed my Yeager before my Level 1. In fact I think the second day I had access to e-Services.

That doesn't change the fact that Unit Awards should be ribbon only awards. The only other unit award I know of that is presented in a both a ribbon and medal format is the USCGAux's Flotilla Meritorious Achievement Award.

Every other Services' Unit Awards are ribbon only and most have a Gold Frame around them.

As to full-size medals, only the the CAP Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor are presented full-size. I've seen a full-size CAP Distinguished Service Medal on the internet (here in fact) but I don't know if they actually present it full-size or not.

Most of the Military never wears full-size either. Honor Guards is wear I see them worn most commonly... that and Marine Corps Birthday Balls.

I had to buy my full-sized rack for a formal event I went to earlier this year. First time in thirty one years wearing full-sized. A mounted set of anodized full-sized medals cost me over $200.00 plus shipping and handling (and they weren't from Vanguard either); so I feel your pain. 

My CAP stack plus my Military is about 21 ribbons plus badges. I'm holding off buying the Mini-medals until after I complete Level 2. I suspect I'll need them for the Dinning Out events at the Conferences for Level 3.

[RiverAux]

A CAP uniform board?  Sure, it couldn't hurt, but every year is not necessary (Do we really want to see changes that often anyway?). 

I'd probably rather see an annual CAP ES Mission Review and Evaluation Board that would take a look at major missions of the years and try to figure out what lessons were learned and spread them throughout the organization.  Also, they could pick out some of the boutique missions that pop up all over the place and evaluate whether they are something that we should try to develop elsewhere. 

[flyboy53]

Just a couple of comments from this thread. First, yes a CAP unique uniform board might be interesting but I have fears of the corporate uniform mess, which is really no different from the uniform Merle McPeak tried to thrust on the Air Force four decades ago.

Second, never compare the new Crisis Service Ribbon to a NDSM. Two different things. The NDSM was created by President Eisenhower as a universal campaign medal because of the glut of medals that resulted from WWII -- there are six if you count the period beginning in 1940 and ending with the Occupation Medal. The NDSM, for active duty, has been awarded four times since the Korean War, and remains the longest continually issued medal in our nation's history for time of war. The Crisis Service Ribbon is, of course, related to the pandemic but the language in the guidance seems to indicate that it will be awarded again in the future. But where is the active-duty comparison to the NDSM?

That leads to the whole discussion of the AFOEA. The Air Force calls the shots on this one, and one point of clarification, IT CAN be worn on the corporate uniform -- as a lapel pin on the blazer combination. In the Air Force, DAFCs or Department of the Air Force Civilians wear the ribbon as a lapel pin with their civilian clothes. CAP members can also wear the lapel pin on their civilian clothes. So, you want to wear the ribbon, then conform to the uniform standard of the Air Force Uniform. Proposing to adapt the ribbon for a CAP unique uniform would be like throwing gas on a fire. Remember wearing the Air Force "styled" uniform complete with the U.S. collar devices is a privilege. Some of us (me) were "flies on the wall" when the Air Force pushed for the end of the CAP NCO program back in the 70s. We all know how that went, and how long it took to create a meaningful program leading to its re-institution -- similar gas on a fire situation.

Over the years on this forum, there have been several individuals who promoted the idea of CAP members being nominated for DAF civilian decorations. Perhaps the time has come to examine this again. In the meantime, we seem to come up with another new ribbon frequently and then that leads to another miniature medal for sale.

Instead, we as an organization may want to re-evaluate our awards and decorations. What really needs to occur here is concrete guidance about "all or some," and some truly meaningful and heraldry-correct decoration designs. Don't harass people like myself who opt to only wear three CAP ribbons because the other option means too many to wear on a uniform.

Then, if you want to do something meaningful for membership, let's opt for more full-sized meritorious service-related decorations instead of the ribbons and miniature medals. Sure, they may only be used for presentation. Have Vanguard offer them for sale -- if nothing more -- and wait and see if the sets are popular -- means a profit for Vanguard and the organization.

How's that for a uniform board item?

[heliodoc]

Air Force Gen. Mike Minihan, the brand-new commander of Air Mobility Command, took nearly all of his 32 ribbons off his uniform for his most recent official service photo. Of those 32 ribbons, Minihan left only three on his chest, all of which were unit-based, rather than individual awards. One of Minihan's public affairs officials said the general's intent was to signal his commitment to team accomplishments over individual glory.

CAP REAAALY needs to think about emulating this young man!!  Mission first! Fruit Salad, later!!

[James Shaw]

As to full-size medals, only the the CAP Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor are presented full-size. I've seen a full-size CAP Distinguished Service Medal on the internet (here in fact) but I don't know if they actually present it full-size or not.

The full-size DSM is generally only presented to outgoing Wing Commanders, Region Commanders. You rarely see them presented to anyone that is not a Colonel.

Generally after they have been presented they go in a drawer, box, or storage as they aren't worn on any other uniform after presentation.

[N6RVT]

Air Force Gen. Mike Minihan, the brand-new commander of Air Mobility Command, took nearly all of his 32 ribbons off his uniform for his most recent official service photo. Of those 32 ribbons, Minihan left only three on his chest, all of which were unit-based, rather than individual awards. One of Minihan's public affairs officials said the general's intent was to signal his commitment to team accomplishments over individual glory.

It is safe to assume a general would have a lot of ribbons so wearing them would be superfluous.  I you look at most 40's and 50's general pictures they have one or two rows on and thats it.

Wearing only one row of ribbons not only makes those three ribbons stand out, but which ones you choose to wear can say a lot more than a kaleidoscope of colors you have to stare at from 3 feet away to decipher what they mean.

[Fubar]

A CAP uniform board?  Sure, it couldn't hurt, but every year is not necessary (Do we really want to see changes that often anyway?).

We already have a uniform board that makes suggestions to the CAP/CC a few times a year.

[Jester]

Meh, I wear all my stuff and I don't really do it for anybody but myself.  I have what I have.  If someone's butt gets hurt because they have have less, then I don't know what to tell you.  We make the choices we make and get what we get. 

When I look at my unit awards, campaign/service ribbons, etc. I think about the people I was with and the experiences I got.  When I look at my individual decorations I think about the experiences, lessons learned, and the people I shared it with.  I wear my function badge because I still have pride in my old career field and acknowledge how it made me who I am in some regards. 

It's a visual reminder for me.  If the secondary effect is that cadets want to ask questions about them and give me an avenue to positively impact them, then all the better.

[Jester]

A CAP uniform board?  Sure, it couldn't hurt, but every year is not necessary (Do we really want to see changes that often anyway?).

We already have a uniform board that makes suggestions to the CAP/CC a few times a year.

Then that should be published information, including everything that was recommended, where it came from (if it's not 90% member-submitted they're messing up) and whether it was a go/no go and WHY.


I always enjoy reading the AF uniform board results and seeing what got shot down, what made it through, etc.  This is relevant information that should be open-source.

[TheSkyHornet]

Whelp, I see that we managed to invoke the Coast Guard Aux again...

[PHall]

Air Force Gen. Mike Minihan, the brand-new commander of Air Mobility Command, took nearly all of his 32 ribbons off his uniform for his most recent official service photo. Of those 32 ribbons, Minihan left only three on his chest, all of which were unit-based, rather than individual awards. One of Minihan's public affairs officials said the general's intent was to signal his commitment to team accomplishments over individual glory.

It is safe to assume a general would have a lot of ribbons so wearing them would be superfluous.  I you look at most 40's and 50's general pictures they have one or two rows on and thats it.

Wearing only one row of ribbons not only makes those three ribbons stand out, but which ones you choose to wear can say a lot more than a kaleidoscope of colors you have to stare at from 3 feet away to decipher what they mean.

The General did what ANY MEMBER OF THE USAF AND CAP can do. Per DAFI 36-2903 for USAF and CAPR 39-1 for CAP on the Service Dress uniform you can wear all or some ribbons.
No regulation changes required.

[AirDX]

Another long uniform thread over ribbons and uniforms most of our declining membership will never wear. There are 600 seniors in my wing and I'll bet 80% not only never wear anything but polos or aviator shirts but don't own anything else. Polos are fine for most of what we do, and the white shirt for awards ceremonies or whatever you might want to look a little nicer for. Even on the white aviator shirt, I wear the minimum required "bling" anymore. Three ribbons only when I do put them on. And I certainly don't get butt hurt because I can't wear my military ribbons on corporate garb. Someday when this is all over with I'll put the whole stack together and hang it on the wall in a shadowbox, that's about it.

It's about service, not uniforms. Of course the opportunity for that is declining just like membership, but that's for another topic.

[baronet68]

As to full-size medals, only the the CAP Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor are presented full-size. I've seen a full-size CAP Distinguished Service Medal on the internet (here in fact) but I don't know if they actually present it full-size or not.

The full-size DSM is generally only presented to outgoing Wing Commanders, Region Commanders. You rarely see them presented to anyone that is not a Colonel.

Generally after they have been presented they go in a drawer, box, or storage as they aren't worn on any other uniform after presentation.

ALL of Civil Air Patrol's medals are presented in a full-sized format...
However, the trick is that CAP only awards three medals:

Silver Medal of Valor
Bronze Medal of Valor
Distinguished Service Medal

Everything else (while they might be available as a mini-medal for wear with certain uniform combinations) is actually a citation, award, or ribbon.

[THRAWN]

Air Force Gen. Mike Minihan, the brand-new commander of Air Mobility Command, took nearly all of his 32 ribbons off his uniform for his most recent official service photo. Of those 32 ribbons, Minihan left only three on his chest, all of which were unit-based, rather than individual awards. One of Minihan's public affairs officials said the general's intent was to signal his commitment to team accomplishments over individual glory.

CAP REAAALY needs to think about emulating this young man!!  Mission first! Fruit Salad, later!!

Guess the deputy and command chief didn't get the memo.

[N6RVT]

As to full-size medals, only the the CAP Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor are presented full-size. I've seen a full-size CAP Distinguished Service Medal on the internet (here in fact) but I don't know if they actually present it full-size or not.

The full-size DSM is generally only presented to outgoing Wing Commanders, Region Commanders. You rarely see them presented to anyone that is not a Colonel.

Generally after they have been presented they go in a drawer, box, or storage as they aren't worn on any other uniform after presentation.

ALL of Civil Air Patrol's medals are presented in a full-sized format...
However, the trick is that CAP only awards three medals:

Silver Medal of Valor
Bronze Medal of Valor
Distinguished Service Medal

Everything else (while they might be available as a mini-medal for wear with certain uniform combinations) is actually a citation, award, or ribbon.

Sounds like the DSM is actually the CAP version of the Legion of Merit.

[N6RVT]

As to full-size medals, only the the CAP Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor are presented full-size. I've seen a full-size CAP Distinguished Service Medal on the internet (here in fact) but I don't know if they actually present it full-size or not.

The full-size DSM is generally only presented to outgoing Wing Commanders, Region Commanders. You rarely see them presented to anyone that is not a Colonel.

Generally after they have been presented they go in a drawer, box, or storage as they aren't worn on any other uniform after presentation.

While it sounds like something I would in fact actually say, that quote is not from me.

And my own comments came out as a quote.   Something strange is going on here...

[James Shaw]

As to full-size medals, only the the CAP Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor are presented full-size. I've seen a full-size CAP Distinguished Service Medal on the internet (here in fact) but I don't know if they actually present it full-size or not.

The full-size DSM is generally only presented to outgoing Wing Commanders, Region Commanders. You rarely see them presented to anyone that is not a Colonel.

Generally after they have been presented they go in a drawer, box, or storage as they aren't worn on any other uniform after presentation.

While it sounds like something I would in fact actually say, that quote is not from me.

And my own comments came out as a quote.   Something strange is going on here...

It was likely the way I copied the info. Sorry about that if so.

[N6RVT]

In 20+ years of US Army service, I wore full size medals three times, each time for "Survivor Assistance" as in escorting a soldiers remains back to their family and then remaining for the actual funeral.

This was 30+ years ago, I rather doubt they do this anymore.

Every Civil Air Patrol event I have been to where miniature medals have come into play have just been uniform disasters (surprise).  40 people come to an event and it is supposed to be mess dress:

3 people have that, about a dozen show up in service dress, maybe a dozen more wearing the shirt & tie, a dozen more wearing the blazer, and the rest wearing aviator whites, the short sleeve blues or civilian clothing because they have nothing beyond the polo.  Everyone dutifully shows up in the most formal outfit they have, and the results are its all over the place.

Fact is you don't need mess dress unless you are at a level in CAP where you get invited to actual USAF dining events.  Serious overkill for anything we do internally except maybe the commander's reception at the national convention

You don't need the service coat unless you are going to events seen by people outside of CAP, such as a parade or possibly some formal training conference where multiple agencies are present, and they are wearing the equivalent.  But most CAP members do not have this either.

But please do not go to the other extreme, like having your Squadron awards dinner in civilian T-shirts & jeans at a bar somewhere.  I've seen that too (well not really, I didn't go)

[Shuman 14]

The full-size DSM is generally only presented to outgoing Wing Commanders, Region Commanders. You rarely see them presented to anyone that is not a Colonel.

Generally after they have been presented they go in a drawer, box, or storage as they aren't worn on any other uniform after presentation.

Or a shadowbox, like 95% of the military does with their full-size medals.

[Shuman 14]

Sounds like the DSM is actually the CAP version of the Legion of Merit.

I disagree.

Approximately putting equivalent award to equivalent award will be impossible based on the different nature of military vs CAP service... that being said, the closest USAF equivalency is:

Silver Medal of Valor = Medal of Honor

Bronze Medal of Valor = Air Force Cross

Distinguished Service Medal = Air Force Distinguished Service Medal

Exceptional Service Award = Legion of Merit

Meritorious Service Award = Meritorious Service Medal

Commander's Commendation Award = Air Force Commendation Medal

Achievement Award = Air Force Achievement Medal

Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving = Airman's Medal

National Commander's Unit Citation Award = Air Force Meritorious Unit Award

Unit Citation Award = Air Force Outstanding Unit Award

Professional Development and Aerospace Education Awards = Air Force NCO PME Graduate Ribbon

Membership Award = Air Force Training Ribbon

Red Service Ribbon = Air Force Longevity Service Award

All other CAP Awards = various Service/Training Medals/Ribbons and/or Campaign Medals
 

[Eclipse]

1 - Wear only CAP awards on CAP uniforms.

2 - Never, ever try to equate a military award with a CAP award.
It doesn't work in either direction.

3 - Done.


Next issue.

[Shuman 14]

1 - Wear only CAP awards on CAP uniforms.

2 - Never, ever try to equate a military award with a CAP award.
It doesn't work in either direction.

3 - Done.


Next issue.

1. Well THAT'S never going to happen.

2. General tend to agree but there are exceptions to the rule.

3. BLAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, you were serious? Sorry about that.

[N6RVT]

Sounds like the DSM is actually the CAP version of the Legion of Merit.

I disagree.

Approximately putting equivalent award to equivalent award will be impossible based on the different nature of military vs CAP service... that being said, the closest USAF equivalency is:

Silver Medal of Valor = Medal of Honor

Bronze Medal of Valor = Air Force Cross

Distinguished Service Medal = Air Force Distinguished Service Medal

Exceptional Service Award = Legion of Merit

Meritorious Service Award = Meritorious Service Medal

Commander's Commendation Award = Air Force Commendation Medal

Achievement Award = Air Force Achievement Medal

Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving = Airman's Medal

National Commander's Unit Citation Award = Air Force Meritorious Unit Award

Unit Citation Award = Air Force Outstanding Unit Award

Professional Development and Aerospace Education Awards = Air Force NCO PME Graduate Ribbon

Membership Award = Air Force Training Ribbon

Red Service Ribbon = Air Force Longevity Service Award

All other CAP Awards = various Service/Training Medals/Ribbons and/or Campaign Medals
 

The Legion of Merit is an award I *always* saw given when someone was retiring.  It was always the last thing to happen in their career.  The more I think about it the more I'm convinced there actually IS no CAP equivalent to it.

[Shuman 14]

The Legion of Merit is an award I *always* saw given when someone was retiring.  It was always the last thing to happen in their career.  The more I think about it the more I'm convinced there actually IS no CAP equivalent to it.

Were you an Officer or NCO?

I normally have seen the LOM as a retirement award for Senior NCOs (E-8 and above) with retiring E-7s and below getting MSMs instead.

I also have seen LOMs as retirement awards for any Officer Captain and above.

BUT

I have also seen the LOM as an end of tour award for Majors and LTCs in Brigade, Division and Army Headquarters that did stellar jobs with the MSM standard for everyone else and ARCOMS for the junior Enlisted. I never served on a Corps staff (yet) so I can't speak there.

I went to an awards ceremony for a Division Holiday Party and saw six LOMs awarded, one for merit and PCS for the Chief of Staff and five for retiring Sergeant Majors and Master Sergeants.

Maybe I spend too much time on staffs.

[baronet68]

... and five for retiring Sergeant Majors ....

Minor technical edit here...

Because they are "Sergeants" and not "Majors", the appropriate plural for a group of them is "Sergeants Major"

Similarly with Inspectors General, Attorneys General, Judge Advocates General as they are not Generals but are Inspectors, Attorneys, and Advocates respectively.

[CAP9907]

OK everyone,

Topic is about the Interim Change Letter 3 to CAPR 39-3. Let's keep it focused there. Thanks.

~9907

[SARDOC]

It is more appropriately similar in design to the US Public Health Crisis Response Medal, replaced above.

Agreed - just the inner two colors reversed from the looks of it.  The criteria for awarding it more matches the disaster relief ribbon, whereas ours is more like the army service ribbon as you get it just for joining the organization.  This will be the first ribbon anyone gets, even before the membership ribbon for level one.

The Army Service Ribbon isn't awarded for just entering the service.  To earn that award you must successfully complete and become qualified in a military occupational specialty...More like our Level 1 ribbon.

I did Three years in the National Guard...there was no money to send me to an MOS school, so at the end of my service there no Army Service Ribbon.  I did however get the Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal, for three years honorable service.

You didn't get a National Defense Service Medal?

I already had one from my Navy Service during the same conflict period. So I was not given another.