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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Air Force doing away with weight standards?
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Author Topic: Air Force doing away with weight standards?  (Read 6039 times)
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,530

« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2017, 01:30:07 PM »

Quote
From Eclipse
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package


This is where we have a problem. CAP is not a formal military organization...

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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,530

« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2017, 02:15:24 PM »

Quote
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package...


This is the same attitude that generates on some members the "I cannot wear the military uniform, therefore I am a second-class member" and is used by them to state there are two different types of members.

"Some members wear the Blues. It is a formal military uniform. I cannot wear it, and have to wear the Corporates. But the CU does not have a hat. Therefore the Greys/Corporates =/= Blues! Therefore I am =/= to other members."

It is also the same reason why some refuse to wear Corporates, even when buttons are popping off their uniforms.

"I want to be seen as = to other members. Therefore I will wear AF Blues always, no matter what the regs say."

We need to stop saying "To make Corporates = AF Blues, we need to wear hats and bling."

Then maybe, those fatties will start saying "Yes, AF Blues are = to corporates, therefore I will not wear AF Blues."
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:36:43 PM by SarDragon » Logged

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NIN
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« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2017, 02:24:30 PM »

This is where we have a problem. CAP is not a formal military organization...

No?

Why? Explain.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
PA Guy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 709

« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2017, 02:38:13 PM »

Quote
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package...


This is the same attitude that generates on some members the "I cannot wear the military uniform, therefore I am a second-class member" and is used by them to state there are two different types of members.

"Some members wear the Blues. It is a formal military uniform. I cannot wear it, and have to wear the Corporates. But the CU does not have a hat. Therefore the Greys/Corporates =/= Blues! Therefore I am =/= to other members."

It is also the same reason why some refuse to wear Corporates, even when buttons are popping off their uniforms.

"I want to be seen as = to other members. Therefore I will wear AF Blues always, no matter what the regs say."

We need to stop saying "To make Corporates = AF Blues, we need to wear hats and bling."

Then maybe, those fatties will start saying "Yes, AF Blues are = to corporates, therefore I will not wear AF Blues."

Maybe if members would restrain themselves and cease using the term "fatty/fatties" the conversation could be more productive. I am overweight and I don't need to be reminded of it by anyone on this board. Goes to Core Values and Respect.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:38:21 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 752

« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2017, 03:08:12 PM »

Quote
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package...


This is the same attitude that generates on some members the "I cannot wear the military uniform, therefore I am a second-class member" and is used by them to state there are two different types of members.

"Some members wear the Blues. It is a formal military uniform. I cannot wear it, and have to wear the Corporates. But the CU does not have a hat. Therefore the Greys/Corporates =/= Blues! Therefore I am =/= to other members."

It is also the same reason why some refuse to wear Corporates, even when buttons are popping off their uniforms.

"I want to be seen as = to other members. Therefore I will wear AF Blues always, no matter what the regs say."

We need to stop saying "To make Corporates = AF Blues, we need to wear hats and bling."

Then maybe, those fatties will start saying "Yes, AF Blues are = to corporates, therefore I will not wear AF Blues."

Maybe if members would restrain themselves and cease using the term "fatty/fatties" the conversation could be more productive. I am overweight and I don't need to be reminded of it by anyone on this board. Goes to Core Values and Respect.

As a member of the corporate uniform brigade myself I have no problem with the term fatty, its the truth.  I am both fat and fuzzy
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:39:01 PM by SarDragon » Logged
NIN
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« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2017, 03:10:15 PM »

As a member of the corporate uniform brigade myself I have no problem with the term fatty, its the truth.  I am both fat and fuzzy

"I can use that word, but you [darn] sure can't."
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 752

« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2017, 03:28:32 PM »

As a member of the corporate uniform brigade myself I have no problem with the term fatty, its the truth.  I am both fat and fuzzy

"I can use that word, but you [darn] sure can't."

Don't care who uses the word
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Spam
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Posts: 959
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2017, 05:10:41 PM »

This isn't just specific to you.  Members "decide" all the time, and many just "do their own thing".

Are they turned around at the door and sent home to change or not come back? If not, the problem is on a higher level.

etodd, I have indeed turned away members at the door of activities when they've attempted to wear USAF style and haven't been compliant with ht/weight, grooming, or both, or if they've shown up in USAF style without adequate approved outerwear for the weather. I have never once done so for members who wear corporates of any sort, nor for members who show up in civilian clothing, although it might restrict their participation roles. Compliance with the USAF style requirements is the key element, not USAF style/corporates.

The higher level issue is that we are entrusted to self-police in adhering to 39-1 and we often fail to do so, risking the trust placed in us to allow the wear of USAF-style by a federally chartered nonprofit civilian organization.  All assertions to the contrary, we are a civilian organization outside of the DoD (i.e. legally non military) which performs taskings defined in a Cooperative Agreement for the USAF customer as provided by law.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title10/subtitleD/part3/chapter909&edition=prelim
9441. Status as federally chartered corporation; purposes
(a) Status.—(1) The Civil Air Patrol is a nonprofit corporation that is federally chartered under section 40301 of title 36.
(2) Except as provided in section 9442(b)(2) of this title, the Civil Air Patrol is not an instrumentality of the Federal Government for any purpose.

and:
http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3_5/publication/afpd10-27/afpd10-27.pdf

So, these fantasies that corporate uniforms require headgear, that CAP is a military organization, etc. are without basis, and are themselves part of the problem, especially when their proponents abandon consistency and insist that we allow civilian gear to be mixed with USAF style.

R/s
Spam


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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,530

« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2017, 05:16:48 PM »

Military-like.

We are not subject to the UCMJ.

We are not subject to the same punishment that USAF members are.

Our grades are not "made by the President..."

And I hope that no one feels they are second-class!

Nor does anyone starts such a debate like the uniform!!!

Edited to add: See SPAM reply before this one!
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Eclipse
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« Reply #69 on: October 11, 2017, 05:21:54 PM »

Quote
From Eclipse
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package


This is where we have a problem. CAP is not a formal military organization...

CAP is a formal paramilitary organization.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 959
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #70 on: October 11, 2017, 05:46:00 PM »

Quote
From Eclipse
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package


This is where we have a problem. CAP is not a formal military organization...

CAP is a formal paramilitary organization.

That's an assertion not backed by US Code or chartering documentation, and meaningless in this context. "Formal paramilitary"???

Wishing don't make it so.

"9442. Status as volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force
(a) Volunteer Civilian Auxiliary.—The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government"


Civilian. Term "paramilitary" not found anywhere therein.


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Eclipse
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« Reply #71 on: October 11, 2017, 06:11:23 PM »

Wishing don't make it so.

Nor does it change the definition of the word.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/paramilitary?s=t
"adjective
1. noting or pertaining to an organization operating as, in place of, or as a supplement to a regular military force:
"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramilitary
"A paramilitary is a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, but which is not included as part of a state's formal armed forces.[1]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paramilitary
"of, relating to, being, or characteristic of a force formed on a military pattern especially as a potential auxiliary military force a paramilitary border patrol paramilitary training"

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/paramilitary
"Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops."

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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,120

« Reply #72 on: October 11, 2017, 06:18:28 PM »

Interesting.

As others have pointed out, dictionaries make a pretty good case for applying the terms "military" and "paramilitary" to CAP.

But dictionaries aside, why do you think that CAP can't be both "civilian" and "paramilitary" or even "military'?

I don't think either term excludes the other.  And depending on the context, all may be correct both practically and legally.

The one thing we can probably agree on is that CAP is not part of the United States Armed Forces, which is probably what you consider "the military."

But in some contexts, CAP can certainly be "military," because relatively few purely civilian organizations have uniforms, military-style ranks, a chain of command, military customs and courtesies, and rules about insubordination and the like.

But I do kinda enjoy our civilian aspects as well, as in no UCMJ and a lot of freedoms not available to me before I retired from the Army.

I submit that it just depends on the context of the discussion.
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CAPLTC
Member

Posts: 65
Unit: MER

« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2017, 09:45:35 PM »

So what?
30% of the uniformed DoD is obese in 2017.
Why are we calling this one cadet out by name? Eyeballing someone about his size, I'd put them at ~18-22% bodyfat - I have been taping and testing people for 20 years... I am usually correct.
Is he in the Civil Air Patrol? None of anyone's business.
I tape-out @ 21% bodyfat, 3% under my allowance. I do have a gut.
If the military sets a particular standard, what is it to anyone here? Standards are standards...
Who here can bench press or even squat their bodyweight or do a double bodyweight deadlift? Who can ruck 10 miles @ a 12 min/mile pace? Who can run a 7 minute mile? Etc etc etc etc.

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AlphaSigOU
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,151
Unit: PCR-NV-069

The Kwaj Drafter!
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2017, 10:13:35 AM »

This is a note I am publishing to my profile on Facebook. But before I pull the trigger, I'd like to give this a review with my fellow CAPTalkers:


Quote
With the highly polarized political climate that has emerged since the 2016 presidential election some have mistakenly thought I am a serving active duty officer in our Armed Forces. Allow me to thoroughly explain what my status is as a member of Civil Air Patrol:
 
I am a civilian, volunteer, dues-paying member of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP). Including my service as a cadet, I have been a member, not counting several breaks in membership, for over 15 years. DON’T call me a ‘poseur’, a ‘wannabe’, or an ‘impostor’. I did serve on active duty in the enlisted ranks of the U.S. Air Force over thirty years ago, and this is my way to give back to the community as a veteran. My social media profiles do identify me as a member of Civil Air Patrol. And certain social media photo albums show me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform.
 
We are the U.S. Air Force’s volunteer civilian auxiliary only when activated and operating on authorized missions issued by the U.S. Air Force. The rest of the time, Civil Air Patrol is a private, non-profit corporation chartered by Congress. We were founded in 1941, well before the U.S. Air Force separated from the U.S. Army and became its own military service in 1947. The Secretary of the Air Force (SECAF) may use the services of CAP to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Air Force.
 
We wear the U.S. Air Force uniform with distinctive Civil Air Patrol insignia to distinguish ourselves from our Air Force counterparts ‘at low light and at a distance’. If we do not meet CAP weight and grooming standards for wear of the Air Force-style uniform, we are restricted to wearing a distinctive corporate-style uniform. Our uniform regulations prohibit the wear of the CAP Air Force-style and corporate uniforms in the following situations (reference CAP Manual 39-1):
 
·         While engaged in private employment. (Implies official sponsorship.)
·         Under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach upon the uniform.
·         More than one hour after conclusion of CAP meetings or activities. (Travel time to and from activities excepted.)
·         When participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not approved by the U.S. Air Force. (Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.)
·         At any meeting of any prohibited groups. (Fascist, totalitarian, communist, subversive, etc. as determined by the U.S. Attorney General.)
·         In a foreign country, unless specifically authorized.
 
Our officer and enlisted rank structure is similar to that of the U.S. military and we wear the same grade insignia, though our officer grades top off at Major General. Many members – including myself – already hold the highest rank an ordinary member can attain: lieutenant colonel. Promotion to the exalted ranks of colonel, brigadier or major general is upon appointment to wing commander, region commander, national vice commander and national commander, respectively. Certain national staff officers are also appointed as colonels. Upon successful completion of one’s term of office and approval by the CAP Command Council (for colonels) and the CAP Board of Governors (for brigadier and major generals) does the grade become permanent, otherwise they revert to the last permanent grade attained (for most of us, it’s lieutenant colonel).
 
I am NOT a commissioned military officer; we are appointed to the rank according to internal CAP regulations. In fact, our rank insignia actually denotes the level of CAP professional development completed. Completion of professional development requirements and time-in-grade is what makes us eligible for promotion to the next higher rank, up to lieutenant colonel.
 
Civil Air Patrol members are NOT subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). We are subject to our own internal regulations. Only if we accompanied the Air Force into a combat zone and declared a cobelligerent (and that hasn’t happened since World War II) would we be subject to military justice. I have ZERO military authority over other members of our Armed Forces. In fact, service members are not required to salute us, though we give and return salutes as a matter of military courtesy. Referencing Air Force Instruction (AFI) 10-2701:
 
“CAP is not a military service, its members are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired. Although CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized, but Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.”
 
Some have implied or outright accused me of ‘violating military law’ by ‘badmouthing the Commander-in-Chief’. Ahem… WHAT PART OF ‘NOT SUBJECT TO THE UCMJ’ DID YOU NOT READ ABOVE? Article 88 of the UCMJ (Contempt Towards Officials) does NOT apply to me. The President of the United States has NO military authority over me nor is he in the Civil Air Patrol chain of command. My constitutional rights as a private citizen of the United States of America protect my right to free speech and expression; conversely, I am aware that the expression of these rights carry responsibilities and may be opposed by others.
 
You will NOT see me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform participating in a political demonstration. You will NOT see me using my rank to usurp military authority or troll military members to make them salute me. And you will NOT see me wearing the CAP uniform while expressing my personal political beliefs, which may be contrary to others.
 
Civil Air Patrol’s core values are ‘Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence and Respect’, reflecting the U.S. Air Force’s core values of ‘Integrity First, Service before Self and Excellence in All We Do’ to our status as the volunteer civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force.
 
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings you may have heard about my status as an officer in the Civil Air Patrol.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2017, 11:21:34 AM »

Is that necessary?

Why would you care about anyone's opinion that knows so
little about you they need an FAQ?
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2017, 11:22:22 AM »

This is a note I am publishing to my profile on Facebook. But before I pull the trigger, I'd like to give this a review with my fellow CAPTalkers:


Quote
With the highly polarized political climate that has emerged since the 2016 presidential election some have mistakenly thought I am a serving active duty officer in our Armed Forces. Allow me to thoroughly explain what my status is as a member of Civil Air Patrol:
 
I am a civilian, volunteer, dues-paying member of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP). Including my service as a cadet, I have been a member, not counting several breaks in membership, for over 15 years. DON’T call me a ‘poseur’, a ‘wannabe’, or an ‘impostor’. I did serve on active duty in the enlisted ranks of the U.S. Air Force over thirty years ago, and this is my way to give back to the community as a veteran. My social media profiles do identify me as a member of Civil Air Patrol. And certain social media photo albums show me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform.
 
We are the U.S. Air Force’s volunteer civilian auxiliary only when activated and operating on authorized missions issued by the U.S. Air Force. The rest of the time, Civil Air Patrol is a private, non-profit corporation chartered by Congress. We were founded in 1941, well before the U.S. Air Force separated from the U.S. Army and became its own military service in 1947. The Secretary of the Air Force (SECAF) may use the services of CAP to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Air Force.
 
We wear the U.S. Air Force uniform with distinctive Civil Air Patrol insignia to distinguish ourselves from our Air Force counterparts ‘at low light and at a distance’. If we do not meet CAP weight and grooming standards for wear of the Air Force-style uniform, we are restricted to wearing a distinctive corporate-style uniform. Our uniform regulations prohibit the wear of the CAP Air Force-style and corporate uniforms in the following situations (reference CAP Manual 39-1):
 
·         While engaged in private employment. (Implies official sponsorship.)
·         Under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach upon the uniform.
·         More than one hour after conclusion of CAP meetings or activities. (Travel time to and from activities excepted.)
·         When participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not approved by the U.S. Air Force. (Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.)
·         At any meeting of any prohibited groups. (Fascist, totalitarian, communist, subversive, etc. as determined by the U.S. Attorney General.)
·         In a foreign country, unless specifically authorized.
 
Our officer and enlisted rank structure is similar to that of the U.S. military and we wear the same grade insignia, though our officer grades top off at Major General. Many members – including myself – already hold the highest rank an ordinary member can attain: lieutenant colonel. Promotion to the exalted ranks of colonel, brigadier or major general is upon appointment to wing commander, region commander, national vice commander and national commander, respectively. Certain national staff officers are also appointed as colonels. Upon successful completion of one’s term of office and approval by the CAP Command Council (for colonels) and the CAP Board of Governors (for brigadier and major generals) does the grade become permanent, otherwise they revert to the last permanent grade attained (for most of us, it’s lieutenant colonel).
 
I am NOT a commissioned military officer; we are appointed to the rank according to internal CAP regulations. In fact, our rank insignia actually denotes the level of CAP professional development completed. Completion of professional development requirements and time-in-grade is what makes us eligible for promotion to the next higher rank, up to lieutenant colonel.
 
Civil Air Patrol members are NOT subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). We are subject to our own internal regulations. Only if we accompanied the Air Force into a combat zone and declared a cobelligerent (and that hasn’t happened since World War II) would we be subject to military justice. I have ZERO military authority over other members of our Armed Forces. In fact, service members are not required to salute us, though we give and return salutes as a matter of military courtesy. Referencing Air Force Instruction (AFI) 10-2701:
 
“CAP is not a military service, its members are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired. Although CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized, but Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.”
 
Some have implied or outright accused me of ‘violating military law’ by ‘badmouthing the Commander-in-Chief’. Ahem… WHAT PART OF ‘NOT SUBJECT TO THE UCMJ’ DID YOU NOT READ ABOVE? Article 88 of the UCMJ (Contempt Towards Officials) does NOT apply to me. The President of the United States has NO military authority over me nor is he in the Civil Air Patrol chain of command. My constitutional rights as a private citizen of the United States of America protect my right to free speech and expression; conversely, I am aware that the expression of these rights carry responsibilities and may be opposed by others.
 
You will NOT see me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform participating in a political demonstration. You will NOT see me using my rank to usurp military authority or troll military members to make them salute me. And you will NOT see me wearing the CAP uniform while expressing my personal political beliefs, which may be contrary to others.
 
Civil Air Patrol’s core values are ‘Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence and Respect’, reflecting the U.S. Air Force’s core values of ‘Integrity First, Service before Self and Excellence in All We Do’ to our status as the volunteer civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force.
 
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings you may have heard about my status as an officer in the Civil Air Patrol.

Don't see any connection between "With the highly polarized political climate that has emerged since the 2016 presidential election" and "some have mistakenly thought I am a serving active duty officer in our Armed Forces." That's been happening for like ever-- people see a military uniform and think we're in the military.

Anyway this is really something you need to clear up with your FB friends??
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AlphaSigOU
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,151
Unit: PCR-NV-069

The Kwaj Drafter!
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2017, 11:25:55 AM »

Believe me, some of my so-called friends on FB are absolutely ignorant of the military. It was not until recently that the matter has come up.
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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
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Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,877

« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2017, 11:44:56 AM »

Ignore, unfollow or even unfriend them if they're that much trouble. It's only Face Book.
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AlphaSigOU
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,151
Unit: PCR-NV-069

The Kwaj Drafter!
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2017, 11:49:16 AM »

Ignore, unfollow or even unfriend them if they're that much trouble. It's only Face Book.


And that's exactly what I do... Ignore them often, unfollow when necessary and unfriend them rarely. No skin off my back if someone unfriends or unfollows me.
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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040
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