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AirAux
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Posts: 743

« on: October 07, 2017, 04:56:05 PM »

Is the Air Force doing away with weight standard requirements?  If so, does that mean CAP fatties can wear the Air Force Blues?  It seems that the Air Force Academy football defensive lineman Mosese Fifita weighs in at over 300 pounds and yet wears Air Force Academy Uniforms.  I thought the weight standards were in place to prevent embarrassment to the Air Force of fat members in uniform.  I guess not all fat members are fat members?  I see a certain amount of hypocrisy and discrimination in this???  We have members that freely give of their time and talents and put their lives in danger who are not allowed to wear Air Force Blues, but an overweight athlete getting a free education can.  Something is very, very wrong here.  I am ashamed of the Air Force.  They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.
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BKhun
Newbie

Posts: 3

« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 05:04:55 PM »

Glad you're enjoying the game.

I would not plan on looking at USAFA as a reflection of AF health/wellness requirements.
-In order to be a USAFA cadet, cadets must meet USAFA-specific weight standards
-If they exceed the standards, they will receive body-fat taping.
-If they fail that, they'll be placed on "weight management", a form of probation which requires them to lose (or gain, in some cases) weight
-Certain sports teams sort of get an exception from this process in season-but must pass an AF fitness test before commissioning, to include the waist measurement. Is it "fair"? Not sure, but USAFA football players are not the Air Force.

Practically speaking, once you've enlisted or graduated from your commissioning source, you're not going to be weighed regularly. The AF mostly uses the waist measurement and the fitness test to determine your fitness. Obviously, certain career fields (aircrew, spec ops, etc) are a little different.

Happy to provide any other insight as requested.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2017, 05:20:57 PM »

The AF has H/W standards for entry only.  Once you are in then its the standard set by the PT test.  If you fail the waist you do BMI if you fail BMI then there is an issue.  And looking at the individual the OP I bet you most of his 300lbs is muscle.  Huge difference between being 300lbs muscle and well 300lbs fat. 

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stillamarine
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2017, 05:39:39 PM »

Is the Air Force doing away with weight standard requirements?  If so, does that mean CAP fatties can wear the Air Force Blues?  It seems that the Air Force Academy football defensive lineman Mosese Fifita weighs in at over 300 pounds and yet wears Air Force Academy Uniforms.  I thought the weight standards were in place to prevent embarrassment to the Air Force of fat members in uniform.  I guess not all fat members are fat members?  I see a certain amount of hypocrisy and discrimination in this???  We have members that freely give of their time and talents and put their lives in danger who are not allowed to wear Air Force Blues, but an overweight athlete getting a free education can.  Something is very, very wrong here.  I am ashamed of the Air Force.  They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.

Wow. Disrespectful much? I bet you wouldn't say that with Mr. Fifita in the room. Service Academy athletes are allowed to weigh over but must make weight or tape by the time of their commissioning. In no way is this any reflection on the AF's feelings towards CAP. Personally I think it's great and hope it remains a thing as my son is hoping to go to USAFA when he graduates HS. He's a 6'3 230 14 year old defensive lineman now.

I'm ashamed of your attitude.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2017, 05:42:52 PM »

I am ashamed of the Air Force.  They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.

It's not the Air Force's doing, that's a CAP thing in their obsession with affectation over mission-focused uniform choices.
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AirAux
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 743

« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2017, 10:32:24 PM »

I have to respectfully disagree with most posts on here.  The individual is not all myscle.  He has a gut, very visible in uniform.  Mt son graduated from USAFA in 91.  Tax dollars are being spent to create an officer out of any cadet attending the Academy.  This one will not meet regulations now or ever.  It is ridiculous for him to being taking the slot of someone that would meet regulations.  The Academy is not there to play football.  This is a wastep of our tax dollars and it is wrong for the Air Force and Academy to do this.  So much for honor...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 09:30:08 AM by AirAux » Logged
abdsp51
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2017, 10:51:26 PM »

Then go complain to your congress person.  And it is very judgemental of you to say he's fat.  Every pic I have seen says muscle not fat.  At the end of the day if he can't meet standards he will be out. 

Different rules for AF members and CAP members at the end of the day its not on you to determine if he is fit for service or whether or not he will ever meet standards. 
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AirAux
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2017, 12:44:29 AM »

Judgmental you say?  How about the thousands that were less than honorably discharged due to the fat boy program in the Air Force?  There is hypocrisy in this situation.  Explain it to the fatties not allowed to wear the Air Force blues.  Or better yet, get a uniform that everyone in CAP can wear so all will be uniform.
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BKhun
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Posts: 3

« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2017, 01:29:20 AM »

I have to respectfully disagree with most posts on here.  The individual is not all myscle.  He has a gut, very visible in uniform.  Mt son graduated from USAA in 91.  Tax dollars are being spent to create an officer out of any cadet attending the Academy.  This one will not meet regulations now or ever.  It is ridiculous for him to being taking the slot of someone that would meet regulations.  The Academy is not there to play football.  This is a wastep of our tax dollars and it is wrong for the Air Force and Academy to do this.  So much for honor...

If your son really did graduate from USAA (although I'm not entirely sure how you graduate from a bank), I'm not sure how you're surprised that AF football players are usually a little bigger than the rest of the cadet wing. I'm also not sure how you're so sure he will NEVER meet weight standards, but, surprisingly, someone else is in charge of making that judgment.
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Spam
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2017, 02:53:55 AM »

... I guess not all fat members are fat members?  ...

I would slightly correct your question to read "not all OVERWEIGHT members are fat members".

There are many DoD members who are over the anthropometric height/weight tables. It isn't an unusual thing for members to be assessed against allowable body fat and fitness standards in such instances. I participated in a mishap investigation once where the pilot (a former academy wrestler) inadvertently knocked the gear handle with his (massive!) knee during ACM, causing damage. Huge? Heck yes. Fat? Probably a very low percentage (I forget honestly, but the guy was very fit). In my career I've measured many very large and small pilots and maintainers (working with ASC/EN, AFRL, NAWC-AD, and AMRDEC) and I have to tell you, the determination of fitness and suitability for job assignments takes a heck of a lot more than looking at some pics/TV footage.

Disclosure: I earned my "Spam" call sign one early morning because I was told by an instructor that I fit the forward cockpit like "Spam in a can - meat wall to wall". Sigh... I've had the fun of having to do the tape test (passed , or I used to at least).   :P


... They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.


"They" (the Air Force) continue to graciously allow CAP members to wear their USAF style uniforms, given that we (CAP) restrict their wear to members meeting the first tier review (height/weight tables, plus an allowance). CAP doesn't have the resources to do individual assessments/body fat tests - but don't put that on USAF. If CAP members want to wear military style, nothing other than their own height/weight is preventing that.

AirAux, you should know that you're not considered a second class member, for wearing a corporate uniform. If you feel butt hurt or triggered over this, that's on you (not USAF). I hung up the USAF style myself a while back, until I get in shape and lose the weight. If I don't, no big deal - its CLOTHING - and I have many other options.

Its only the members who continue to wear USAF style in defiance of the regs that I consider not second class, but "at risk" members, whom I will continue to counsel IAW the regs. The inability to comply with (or the flouting of) CAP uniform regs is to my mind a leading indicator of risk in other areas of CAP. So, if anyone gets extra scrutiny and perhaps remedial attention, its them. (See the "five hazardous attitudes" FAA briefs).

V/r
Spam


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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2017, 08:59:55 AM »

I’m just curious about what his 1.5 mile time is. 
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abdsp51
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2017, 09:03:08 AM »

Quote
How about the thousands that were less than honorably discharged due to the fat boy program in the Air Force?   

Got proof of that?  Did you talk to all of them?  If you so desperately want to wear the AF style then do the work to wear it.  Or maybe you are alresdy (potentially against regs) and tjis is just a way for you to try and justify it.
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AirAux
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Posts: 743

« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2017, 09:37:22 AM »

Yes, my brother for one after 12 years of active service.  Further, I have health conditions that prevent me from meeting weight standards and yes, there are such things.  Further, I have 37 years of service with the Civil Air Patrol.  My Dad served 23 years in the Air Force and my son served after graduation from USAFA.  I served in the Army.  I believe we needed a unifying uniform for all to wear in CAP.  You have no right to deny the feelings of someone not allowed to wear the uniform of our Parent service.  If you saw the 300+ pound lineman on TV, you would know it is not all muscle...  unless he has really strong gluteal muscles...
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AirAux
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2017, 09:42:40 AM »

here ya go:
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/health/us-soldiers-turn-to-diet-pills-liposuction-to-meet-weight-standards-ncxdc-120810


US soldiers are going to extremes -- taking diet pills and laxatives, even starving themselves and getting liposuction -- in order to meet the military’s weight standards, the Army Times reported Monday.

“Liposuction saved my career -- laxatives and starvation before an [Army Physical Fitness Test] sustains my career,” an anonymous soldier told the weekly paper. “I for one can attest that soldiers are using liposuction, laxatives and starvation to meet height and weight standards. I did, do and still do.”

More than a third of uniformed men and women do not meet the Army’s weight standards, according to a 2009 military fitness report, and those officers are subjected to dreaded tape measurements to determine body fat percentage.

If soldiers exceed the body fat limits, they cannot earn leadership roles or promotions, the paper said. Officers can even lose their jobs if they do not shed a significant amount weight in two months -- a very real threat, considering about 24,000 soldiers were discharged between 1992 and 2007 for failure to meet weight standards, according to a report published in Military Medicine.

“I have been on a roller coaster of gains and losses for half my military career,” one lieutenant colonel told the Army Times. “I have considered lipo, and I have certainly starved myself, dieted on only bread and water, or other similar extreme diets to make weight or tape ... And it is no secret to any leader in the military what some soldiers will do to conform to standards that have been set.”

Another soldier based at Fort Riley in Kansas told the paper she recently saw an advertisement for liposuction at the post gym. The Army Times also found ads for the cosmetic procedure in base newspapers at Fort Hood, Tex., Fort Benning, Ga., and Fort Campbell, Ky.

Meanwhile, military leaders and doctors continued to warn against the risks of unhealthy weight loss methods.

“I don’t think we have a clear understanding how widespread this problem is,” Col. George Dilly, Medical Command’s chief dietitian, told the paper, bemoaning the lack of empirical data about extreme dieting and cosmetic surgery among soldiers.

“Soldiers are hiding the fact they are doing this because they don’t want the problem exposed,” he added.

“We want soldiers to look right,” Dr. Thomas Williams, a retired colonel who leads the Army Physical Fitness Research Institute, told the Army Times. “But they also need to feel right and perform right, and you can’t get that from a pill or a procedure.”
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foo
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Posts: 146

« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2017, 10:14:02 AM »

... does that mean CAP fatties can wear the Air Force Blues? 
... allowed to wear Air Force Blues...

There seems to be a widespread myth that the weight standards apply only to USAF-style dress uniforms (i.e., Blues). In fact the standards apply to all USAF-style uniforms, including BDUs, ABUs and flight suits.

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abdsp51
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2017, 10:30:20 AM »

Aux first off.  I have not denied your feelings one iota.  Second a handful that you can claim is not thousands.  Third if you're that tender of a snowflake maybe CAP is no longer for you.. And there is a uniform all CAP SMs can wear it's the corp. 

And the Army Times is hardly a credible or news worthy reference. 

And I don't question whether a 300lb lineman is muscle or fat because there is np relevance.  In this case the AFA took him and are keeping so he is meeting the standard otherwise he wouldn't be there.  Grow up and get over yourself...
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stillamarine
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2017, 12:47:26 PM »

Aux first off.  I have not denied your feelings one iota.  Second a handful that you can claim is not thousands.  Third if you're that tender of a snowflake maybe CAP is no longer for you.. And there is a uniform all CAP SMs can wear it's the corp. 

And the Army Times is hardly a credible or news worthy reference. 

And I don't question whether a 300lb lineman is muscle or fat because there is np relevance.  In this case the AFA took him and are keeping so he is meeting the standard otherwise he wouldn't be there.  Grow up and get over yourself...

Reading some articles on the young man he passed all the PFA requirements that every other cadet had to pass. The kid's a beast and I wish him the best.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2017, 04:50:56 PM »

Odd, I'm still questioning where OP's issue is...

See, I did a quick count: 37 players on the AF team clock in at over 250 lbs.

Are they unfit?  Are they rotund?  Doubtful.

Most are of the 6' 4" and higher variety. They're houses.

I'm guessing, but I could be wrong, that a football player can pass the PT test to remain in the AF.

And anybody who has been in the military more than about 4 minutes knows there is a waiver for everything.  I suspect that a height/weight waiver is a pre-filled out form for the football team at USAFA.

Otherwise, they'd be totally noncompetitive in their division.

And at that point, why have a football team?

Its not like their standards have *anything* to do with ours, or even the Air Force's.  Example: Have to you seen the USAFA cadet uniforms?  They're still wearing the old four-pocket service coats, in a shade that's not even the same as the rest of the Air Force.

So I guess, my point is: if you have a beef with the Air Force Academy football team's height and weight standards, why don't you take it up with the Air Force Academy?   And let us know what they say.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Spam
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 05:03:25 PM »

Yes, my brother for one after 12 years of active service.

Then that's a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions - usually terms are "failure to meet standards" and he could reenlist/reactivate should he meet conditions and reenlist/petition successfully. That's a world of difference from a Dishonorable/Bad Conduct Discharge. Lets not mix terms here or catastrophize.


Further, I have health conditions that prevent me from meeting weight standards and yes, there are such things. 

Me too, brother, me too. In my case, I had surgery and have been under doctors orders to NOT work out, which bugs me. I had one of our subordinate Group/CCs tell me he was surprised to hear I was >300 lbs as I divulged during our recent Commanders Call (where I publicly weighed-in, stated my weight, I urged our unit/CCs to hold their people to this reg, as well as all the others). Thing is - we need to stop using excuses, and comply. When we go down the "excuses" road, we end up with people using that mind set in ways that compromise other regs, bend aircraft and break people, eventually.


You have no right to deny the feelings of someone not allowed to wear the uniform of our Parent service.

Actually, we as Americans do have the First Amendment right to free speech to make statements about your feelings, just as you have the right to express them.

As CAP officers, we are required to enforce the existing CAP regs, as written and amended. You are invited to go through channels to try to change them if you wish.

As CAP members, we need to employ the core value of respect. That goes both ways: we can express our feelings about each other but should refrain from the suppressive statements (e.g. "you have no right") and the targeted insults. Some of your barbs are aimed at CAP, some at CAP members, etc. where none of us have any bearing on USAFA standards. I think you might want to calm down and revisit some of your statements.

R/s,
Spam
(6 foot 4 inches and built not like a house any more - more like an office block)  :-\



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AirAux
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Posts: 743

« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2017, 05:23:06 PM »

So if an fat and or fuzzy is not a second class citizen in the corporate uniform, why doesn't everyone wear the corporate uniform so we would all be uniform?  If there is not disdain for the corporate uniform by those fit and firm, why don't they embrace the corporate uniform to be inclusive and uniform with all members?

Oh, and since when is 24,000 discharged a handful?  That is almost half of what we lost in Nam.  I am sure the Army Times would differ with your opinion of their reporting.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 05:31:21 PM by AirAux » Logged
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