Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 20, 2017, 04:52:03 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Will Cap ever buy c152's?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2  All Print
Author Topic: Will Cap ever buy c152's?  (Read 4019 times)
jfkspotting
Member

Posts: 89
Unit: NER-NY-328

Instagram Acct:
« on: October 02, 2017, 10:05:44 PM »

Maybe second hand ones for soloing cadets?
Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 789

« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 10:10:05 PM »

Maybe second hand ones for soloing cadets?

I sure don't see that happening. We have C-172s that do not get flown enough. Plenty of time on the schedules for Cadet training. No need for 'singular use' airplanes, that might not could be used even then, due to W&B issues.
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,835

« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 11:06:51 PM »

We used to have a few C-150's a long time ago. Sold because they became worthless for ES missions.
Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.
Logged
coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,113

« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 11:54:20 PM »

Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.

Perhaps it should be.
Logged
Nick
Seasoned Member

Posts: 468
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2017, 07:52:32 AM »

With respect to the 152s... you put 2 200 pound guys in the plane, youíre almost at max gross weight. It truly would be limited to being a trainer for a 100 pound cadet and an instructor.

And cadet flight training may not necessarily be a primary mission of CAP, but sure as hell is one of those that strongly threads between all three of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 277
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2017, 09:29:04 AM »

Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.

Perhaps it should be.

No, it really shouldnít.

1. You donít have nearly the number of Instructor Pilots required to support it being a primary mission.  Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets?  Thatís saying that CAP needs to provide cadets with a MINIMUM of 200,000 flight hours.  I donít have the stat of how many Instructor Pilots we have at my fingertips, but youíre talking being able to keep that pilot Flying and instructing as a full time job thatís busier than a pilot mill full of Chinese student pilots, and expect them to do it for free.

2. Itís been my experience in multiple wings and multiple squadrons that the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

3. You have O-rides that give the cadets a taste of powered flight and glider flight.

4. People here gripe and complain how we expect cadets to pay for a $4 patch for their uniform and how itís a financial burden this or that on the cadets.  Now you want to put the financial burden of flight training on cadets as a primary mission of CAP?

5. There is not a thing that you can teach in a 152 that you canít teach in a 172.  You donít buy a bulk number of aircraft in CAP to support a singular task.  The ARCHER program should be a good reminder of that.  The 172 is much more versatile for such things than the 152 could ever be.
Logged
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,835

« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 09:53:00 AM »

Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.

Perhaps it should be.

No, it really shouldnít.

1. You donít have nearly the number of Instructor Pilots required to support it being a primary mission.  Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets?  Thatís saying that CAP needs to provide cadets with a MINIMUM of 200,000 flight hours.  I donít have the stat of how many Instructor Pilots we have at my fingertips, but youíre talking being able to keep that pilot Flying and instructing as a full time job thatís busier than a pilot mill full of Chinese student pilots, and expect them to do it for free.

2. Itís been my experience in multiple wings and multiple squadrons that the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

3. You have O-rides that give the cadets a taste of powered flight and glider flight.

4. People here gripe and complain how we expect cadets to pay for a $4 patch for their uniform and how itís a financial burden this or that on the cadets.  Now you want to put the financial burden of flight training on cadets as a primary mission of CAP?

5. There is not a thing that you can teach in a 152 that you canít teach in a 172.  You donít buy a bulk number of aircraft in CAP to support a singular task.  The ARCHER program should be a good reminder of that.  The 172 is much more versatile for such things than the 152 could ever be.


C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.
Logged
Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 277
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2017, 10:41:36 AM »

C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.

All aircraft have limitations.  This is why thereís always pleading to put the turbo charged stuff in the fleet out west in the mountains instead of on the east coast where itís not quite so crucial.  But the 172 is still more versatile than a 152.  Not their forte does not necessarily equate to incapable.

If youíre talking about cadet solos and flight training, are you really going to put a cadet in a 182 for their first solo?  You canít. 60-1 requires you to have 100 hours total time to fly a high performance airplane.  A cadet doing their first solo has between 10-20.
Logged
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout
FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,136

« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 11:22:19 AM »

There is a reason Cessna no longer manufactures the C-152 (or C-162).  There is no longer a market for them.  The cost differential for manufacturing them is minimal, and the C-172 makes for an excellent training platform; plus, as said above, the C-172 is more versatile. 
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,835

« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 11:58:38 AM »

C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.

All aircraft have limitations.  This is why thereís always pleading to put the turbo charged stuff in the fleet out west in the mountains instead of on the east coast where itís not quite so crucial.  But the 172 is still more versatile than a 152.  Not their forte does not necessarily equate to incapable.

If youíre talking about cadet solos and flight training, are you really going to put a cadet in a 182 for their first solo?  You canít. 60-1 requires you to have 100 hours total time to fly a high performance airplane.  A cadet doing their first solo has between 10-20.

Have seen people get their Private in a C-182, not a big deal. And a cadet soloing in a C-182? Well if all of their training has been in a C-182 should be no problem.
It's what they're used to.
Logged
Blanding
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: MER-VA-102

« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 12:05:11 PM »

Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).
Logged
FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,136

« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 01:08:26 PM »

Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).

It would be in CAP's interest to fly the aircraft they already have.  The only "restrictions" for cadet flight training is availability of IPs willing to train cadets.  We have ample aircraft; not the personnel.  Flight training is a adjunct to the cadet program. No one willingly discourages it.
Logged
Blanding
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: MER-VA-102

« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 01:19:37 PM »

It would be in CAP's interest to fly the aircraft they already have...Flight training is a adjunct to the cadet program. No one willingly discourages it.

I don't think we're arguing that flight training is an opportunity; my opinion is that it should be given higher priority than "it exists" - especially considering reported pilot shortages, etc.

The discouragement I was responding to was:

Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.

Perhaps it should be.

No, it really shouldnít.

Logged
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,110

« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 02:18:12 PM »


I don't think we're arguing that flight training is an opportunity; my opinion is that it should be given higher priority than "it exists" - especially considering reported pilot shortages, etc.



Well then, we have some exciting news coming out from NHQ shortly concerning flight training and cadets.  You will be pleased.

Stand by for news!

[/teaser]


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager
Logged
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 740

« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 02:33:22 PM »

Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).

As usual though, Senior Members are out of luck since we are seen by the organization as mainly here to support the cadet program.
Logged
Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 277
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 03:11:25 PM »

Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).

Whoops on the 25,000, I concede that.  I also did my math wrong on the flight hours.  Weíre talking 1,000,000 flight hours minimum to take 25,000 cadets to their Private certificates.  No one said stop cadets from flight training.  The program is already set up to allow that.  Iíve taken two all the way to their Private certificates, though after they soloed and outside of CAP.  Oneís certificate was completely taken care of financially from a CAP flight academy scholarship.  The other wanted it on his own accord.  But to strongly encourage that CAP give flight training to cadets the same way we Ďstrongly encourageí to get cadets Flying their first O-flight within 60 days of joining.  Itís rough enough to fit in those 125,000 flight hours for O-Flights.

I donít argue that flight training should be available to cadets.  I just argue that it shouldnít be a primary mission of CAP.
Logged
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout
Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 277
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 03:14:13 PM »

C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.

All aircraft have limitations.  This is why thereís always pleading to put the turbo charged stuff in the fleet out west in the mountains instead of on the east coast where itís not quite so crucial.  But the 172 is still more versatile than a 152.  Not their forte does not necessarily equate to incapable.

If youíre talking about cadet solos and flight training, are you really going to put a cadet in a 182 for their first solo?  You canít. 60-1 requires you to have 100 hours total time to fly a high performance airplane.  A cadet doing their first solo has between 10-20.

Have seen people get their Private in a C-182, not a big deal. And a cadet soloing in a C-182? Well if all of their training has been in a C-182 should be no problem.
It's what they're used to.

Sure.....if they have 100 hours of total time by the time they actually solo the 182.  But are you really going to accumulate 100 hours of total time pre-solo Just so you can do primary flight training in a CAP 182?
Logged
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout
Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 277
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 03:25:21 PM »

Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).

As usual though, Senior Members are out of luck since we are seen by the organization as mainly here to support the cadet program.

I think it has more to do with investing the time and resources to a Senior Member who is looking for cheap flight instruction and training, then cancelling their membership.  Mission Pilots can pursue any advanced rating they want to in CAP aircraft, and non-Mission Pilots can do it with Wing CC approval.
Logged
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 740

« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 03:36:49 PM »

Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).

As usual though, Senior Members are out of luck since we are seen by the organization as mainly here to support the cadet program.

I think it has more to do with investing the time and resources to a Senior Member who is looking for cheap flight instruction and training, then cancelling their membership.  Mission Pilots can pursue any advanced rating they want to in CAP aircraft, and non-Mission Pilots can do it with Wing CC approval.

I disagree, that problem could easily be solved with an agreement much as employers have that do tuition reimbursement.  It is ludicrous that we are happy to train a 16 year old to be a pilot, but a 22 year old who never had the opportunity to join CAP, sorry buddy you'll have to do it on your own time and dime.  Like I said by and large whenever opportunities come out from National its about the cadets, Seniors are seen as support and wallets
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,835

« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 03:44:16 PM »

C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.

All aircraft have limitations.  This is why thereís always pleading to put the turbo charged stuff in the fleet out west in the mountains instead of on the east coast where itís not quite so crucial.  But the 172 is still more versatile than a 152.  Not their forte does not necessarily equate to incapable.

If youíre talking about cadet solos and flight training, are you really going to put a cadet in a 182 for their first solo?  You canít. 60-1 requires you to have 100 hours total time to fly a high performance airplane.  A cadet doing their first solo has between 10-20.

Have seen people get their Private in a C-182, not a big deal. And a cadet soloing in a C-182? Well if all of their training has been in a C-182 should be no problem.
It's what they're used to.

Sure.....if they have 100 hours of total time by the time they actually solo the 182.  But are you really going to accumulate 100 hours of total time pre-solo Just so you can do primary flight training in a CAP 182?

Who said anything about a CAP C-182? I know I didn't.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Will Cap ever buy c152's?
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.459 seconds with 20 queries.