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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: CAC Group Recorder
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diegoochoaaa
Recruit

Posts: 28

« on: September 28, 2017, 09:01:22 PM »

I was just recently appointed the Groups CAC recorder. I have been informed that I do not wear the red cord and bronze star on the CAC ribbon. I looked up CAPR 39-3 and it only lists "primary Representstives". Could someone please let me know?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,084

« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 09:26:34 PM »

Are you the primary representative from your squadron to the Group CAC?

If so, you would wear a green cord.  If not, no cord.

Red cords are for Wing CACs, blue for Region, Gold for National.

In all cases you need to be the primary.

You also don't get the decoration or the star until after you successfully complete a term.

See CAPR 52-16, Page 30, and CAPM 39-1 Page 102.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,886

« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2017, 09:28:37 PM »

Are you also your squadron's CAC Rep? If you are you're entitled to the cord and the ribbon.
If you're just the Group CAC Recorder then you were told the truth because you're not your squadron's Primary Rep.
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diegoochoaaa
Recruit

Posts: 28

« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2017, 09:51:51 PM »

Are you the primary representative from your squadron to the Group CAC?

If so, you would wear a green cord.  If not, no cord.

Red cords are for Wing CACs, blue for Region, Gold for National.

In all cases you need to be the primary.

You also don't get the decoration or the star until after you successfully complete a term.

See CAPR 52-16, Page 30, and CAPM 39-1 Page 102.
I was my squadrons prime rep., just appointed my Groups Recorder, what I'm understanding is that I am not a "primary representative" of the wing, so I would still wear my green cord correct?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,084

« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2017, 10:40:12 PM »

So let's back up a bit.

Leave being the recorder on the table for a moment.
If you are your unit's Primary CAC rep to a Group CAC, then you wear a green cord,
as should all the other primary reps appointed on a Group CAC, and can earn a plain CAC ribbon.

Being the recorder is just a staff role within the CAC, and doesn't change that you are the primary rep,
nor lesson or remove any votes you might get.  It just means you are keeping the minutes.

Now you could certainly be a unit alternate, or even an adhoc member, and be appointed as Recorder, in which case
you would not wear a cord.

If you are the primary you would earn a ribbon without any star.  Only the primary reps earn a ribbon.

I am not a "primary representative" of the wing, so I would still wear my green cord correct?

Was another cadet from your unit appointed the primary?

Either way, this should be on a Personnel Authorization so there are no misunderstandings.
A lot of CAC chairs and senior facilitators let this stuff fall by the wayside and then there are hurt feelings
at the end of the term.


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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 972
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2017, 11:55:39 PM »

Hi Cadet,


Some Squadron Commanders, Deputy Commanders, and even the seniors in charge of Group activities don't understand how CAC is supposed to work. (Tough, but that is real life). This is your chance to study up, do it "by the numbers", and impress them with your ability!


First up, may I suggest that you ask your Squadron CO to do more than say, "Hey You. You're the unit rep to Group/CAC". Even better than a Personnel Authorization (as Eclipse correctly recommends) is to ask him to go into eServices, and enter you as Primary or Alternate rep to Group/CAC. The path is:

eServices
"Personnel" menu link
"Duty Assignment" link
"Assign Cadet Duties" link
- pick your unit,
- pick your name,
- pick "GCAC Primary" or "GCAC Alternate" (GCAC is "Group").

Next, you can go forward with wearing the cord (if you are the Primary for either Group or Wing) and wear the Ribbon next fall after the completion of your term, if you attend and participate actively (its not an automatic gimme - I have denied the credit to CAC reps who signed up and did NOTHING). So, go do good things.


Since you are in CAC, you are (you should be, to be there, by the program) a C/2LT or above (or C/senior NCO at a minimum). Now is your time to shine as a rep for your unit!  Best of luck to you.

V/r
Spam

PS absolutely, as your units appointed Group/CAC primary rep, wear that green turtle with elan.  ;D


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Vegas1972
Recruit

Posts: 27
Unit: PCR-NV

« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 12:55:52 PM »


Since you are in CAC, you are (you should be, to be there, by the program) a C/2LT or above (or C/senior NCO at a minimum). Now is your time to shine as a rep for your unit!  Best of luck to you.

V/r
Spam


Mr Spam,

I'm a CDC working on appointing a CAC rep to Wing CAC (no group level in our wing).   Do you happen to have a source for the above statement?   I was under the impression that your statement was true...but all I could find in regs or pamphlets was:

from CAPR52-16
7-2. Composition.
a. Allotment of Seats. Commanders may appoint one primary representative and one assistant to
serve on the CAC at the next higher echelon.
(1) Region commanders appoint two Phase IV or Spaatz cadets, one primary representative and
one assistant.
(2) Wing commanders appoint two cadet officers, one primary representative and one assistant.
(3) Composite and cadet squadron commanders appoint two cadet NCOs or officers, a wing (or
group) representative and assistant.  If the unit does not have cadet NCOs or officers available, the unit may
leave the position vacant.


Which reads to me that there is no regulatory requirement for a senior C/ NCO...any NCO or officer is acceptable.   Any other links I missed?   I didn't see anything in CAPP 52-19.
I know the longer in the program and more experienced the better.

Thanks,
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"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.", Sgt. John M. Stryker.
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 972
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 02:15:46 PM »

Sure thing. Great point - trust but VERIFY!  ;)


First, the barracks lawyer junk: not everything can fit (or should be made to) fit into a reg. Regs are the promulgating documents for a number of subordinate documents and job aids, etc. The CAC page has the links to the guidance promulgated by 52-16:
https://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/library/cadet_advisory_councils/
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_019_1584425C1735C.pdf
Your Wing or Group may not know or care and may seat any designated cadet, but Wings following the program will look carefully at appointees on a case by case basis (we do).


Next, the program intent: the clear intent of CAC is to provide a venue to train and exercise indirect leadership via learning to work within a committee structure. Where we all know from R52-16, direct leadership training is the focus of the CAP Phase II (C/NCO) program, indirect leadership is clearly the proper focus of Phase III and above (cadet officers), right? The argument can be made, then, that well intentioned leaders and cadets who want to get junior cadet and cadet NCOs jumped into a CAC role are in fact diverting them from time that could usually be better spent learning to be the best direct leaders possible, at their current level, and are interjecting cadets who are not yet at that level of performance into a CAC system that will be held back trying to deal with them.


Here's what the guidance clearly states:
CAPP 52-19 2 October 2003
  • Part I, item 1: "cadets are introduced to the strategic arena of leadership, and develop long-term goal-setting and indirect leadership skills" and item 3: "As an advisory body, the CAC affords cadet officers [emphasis added] opportunities to assist the echelon commander in leading the Cadet Corps".
  • Part V (Senior Member Leadership): "Unit commanders select qualified cadet officers [emphasis added] for CAC service. An appointment to the council may be used to reward outstanding cadet officers. It recognizes they have progressed as leaders and are capable of applying their indirect leadership skills to the challenges encountered at a higher echelon".
    Note: that's OUTSTANDING cadet officers, not just "hey you're a C/2LT so you're it".
  • and the real meat to answer your question, also from Part V:
    "Why is important to appoint a cadet officer as a CAC representative, versus a Phase I or II cadet? Having completed a curriculum emphasizing followership and small group leadership, cadet officers are ready to lead indirectly and tackle problems that are long-term in nature. Their length of CAP service also enables them to view cadet-related issues against that experience; CAP is not still new to them. It is for these reasons that CAPR 52-16 suggests that commanders appoint only cadet officers to the CAC".


Personal observations. In practical terms I've seen this many times over the past 30 years or so in command and DCP positions and as a CAC advisor, with units trying to send two stripers and mid grade NCOs to a Wing CAC (with a resulting mix of maturity issues, focus issues, and "wait wot?" impediments to getting real work done). I've even had officers argue that they needed to have their three striper seated as their rep to "vote for their unit" (no, it doesn't work that way Ma'am) because he was their top ranking cadet (perhaps you should focus on unit fundamentals, rebuilding and NCO development if a C/SRA is your top rank) and "cadet commander" (inappropriate for a 3 striper also - in which case they really need to focus on taking TLC and on re-reading the program, because there's so many things wrong with those statements...). I have however enjoyed the honest laughter of a Wing Commander at hearing a 13 year old Airman with a whopping six months in CAP pontificate with terms such as "in my experience".


In closing - in real terms - I've accepted and seated senior C/NCO CAC appointments on a case by case basis. That means, I've challenged/questioned the appointment of a couple who (by their records and by their officers comments) had frozen at their Armstrong Achievement and were digging being the First Shirt (direct leader) rather than advancing into being the most junior nugget of a C/LT. Appointment should be in line with the developmental intent of the program, which, as I read the above, does not include the training type mismatch of putting junior cadets and junior NCOs into indirect leadership slots.

 
Sincerely,
Spam


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Vegas1972
Recruit

Posts: 27
Unit: PCR-NV

« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 03:04:04 PM »

Thanks!

The Part V was the portion I was looking for...but overlooked when I went through CAPP 52-19.   It looks like in 2003 it was solely intended for CAC reps to be Phase III/IV but at some point an update of 52-16 "relaxed" to include phase II cadets. 

Based on my earlier quote from 52-16 we had put out a request to all the Cadet NCO's and Officers requesting anyone interested in being the CAC rep for the squadron send in a  resume/cover letter.   Mainly to get them into the process of doing such and learning how to do a resume...I might rethink who actually gets appointed based on the newly discovered (to me)info from P 52-19. 

Thanks again for the well reasoned response and help!
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"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.", Sgt. John M. Stryker.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: CAC Group Recorder
 


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