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October 21, 2017, 04:33:41 AM
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Time in Grade for Quals
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NineteenTen
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: NER-NJ

« on: September 24, 2017, 09:10:49 AM »

The other day I asked my Squadron ES officer if they could approve my prerequisites for GBD but they said they wouldn't because I have only been a GTL for a limited amount of time and have never been on a real mission. Is this valid?
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,509

« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 09:28:09 AM »

There is no such requirement on the regulations. You achieve everything on the SQTR, you should be signed off.

On the other hand, your wing may have added the experience requirement. But if they did, they should have posted that in a written supplement. Lacking such supplement, they may have interpreted the regulations in a different way.

Just like some trainers in my wing. They see in the SQTR "Commander approval for Requisites" at the bottom, not at the top, and they say "Ohh, your commander must sign to give authorization for you to take requisites." When it is not at the beginning of the section but at the end! In other words, the commander is not supposed to give authorization for you to take requisites but is supposed to certify that you did so.

Ask your ESO nicely where it is written. Read the appropriate regulations, ask him where it is written on those regs. CAPR 60-3.
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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Nick
Seasoned Member

Posts: 468
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2017, 09:49:18 AM »

Yeah I donít know how to get those people to understand that the sections flow in order. The commanderís approval is a gate from one section to the next (commander sign-off to go from prereqs to fam/prep, and fam/prep to advanced). If they just went sequentially through the sections of the SQTR, there wouldnít be an issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,811

« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2017, 03:16:43 PM »

I would think that the percentage of GBDs that have been on actual missions as GTLs is pretty low.
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 64
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2017, 03:48:52 PM »

It doesn't make sense to me to not approve your Prerequisites for that reason, but if a commander does not feel that your mission participation as a trainee would be safe for any reason, they would be well within their rights to deny you approval for your Familiarization & Preparatory tasks. CAPR 60-3 has little guidance regarding any valid reason to not approve someone's Prereqs, however it does state that:
Quote from: CAPR 62-3 2-3b.
[Fam & Preps] represent those skills that will keep the member safe and allow the member to function under supervision without jeopardizing the mission.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright © 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
NineteenTen
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: NER-NJ

« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2017, 03:57:48 PM »

It doesn't make sense to me to not approve your Prerequisites for that reason, but if a commander does not feel that your mission participation as a trainee would be safe for any reason, they would be well within their rights to deny you approval for your Familiarization & Preparatory tasks. CAPR 60-3 has little guidance regarding any valid reason to not approve someone's Prereqs, however it does state that:
Quote from: CAPR 62-3 2-3b.
[Fam & Preps] represent those skills that will keep the member safe and allow the member to function under supervision without jeopardizing the mission.
Reason it was Not Approved: Member has only been GTL qualified for 4 days and has never been on a real mission. This is not about how many qualifications you can earn in one
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2017, 04:03:04 PM »

1910: concur with the above posts - the standard flow is GTL to GBD without any added time in qual. There is NO REQUIREMENT FOR A "REAL" MISSION anywhere in the regs.


That's good advice to research your Wings supplements.
APPROVED Supps are listed by NHQ at: https://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/approved-supps-and-ois---northeast-region/ If you are NJWG, it does not appear that your Wing has any Supplement to 60-3, hence, no such time in rating or number of "actual" missions requirement exists to progress. Wing Supplements can't just be locally approved and put in place - they must be submitted through Region to NHQ for review and approval, so unapproved Supplements (or expired ones from years gone past) should be ignored as invalid. So, armed with that, you can go (politely but FIRMLY) back to your DOS, cite the regs, and ask that he click submit and send it along, as there is no current requirement to hold you back from furthering your training.


Should he/she buck it further, claiming something like, "well, this is a local unit requirement", then cite the following and (I would recommend) involve the unit Commander in the discussion to ensure that your CO is aware of this:
CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012
"1-1. Scope. c. When the regulation states that wing commanders can approve various qualifications, it means wing commander or higher."


There are lots of people who'd like to improve our processes and make them more hard core, which is great, but they need to follow the process.


Good luck!
Spam

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NineteenTen
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: NER-NJ

« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2017, 04:08:14 PM »

Thanks for the advice everyone.
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 64
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2017, 04:09:00 PM »

It doesn't make sense to me to not approve your Prerequisites for that reason, but if a commander does not feel that your mission participation as a trainee would be safe for any reason, they would be well within their rights to deny you approval for your Familiarization & Preparatory tasks. CAPR 60-3 has little guidance regarding any valid reason to not approve someone's Prereqs, however it does state that:
Quote from: CAPR 62-3 2-3b.
[Fam & Preps] represent those skills that will keep the member safe and allow the member to function under supervision without jeopardizing the mission.
Reason it was Not Approved: Member has only been GTL qualified for 4 days and has never been on a real mission. This is not about how many qualifications you can earn in one

Sounds a little surly.

Just explain to whoever disapproved it that you just want to have the prereqs done and taken care of so that it doesn't become a snag when training opportunities arise.

And ask which side of the bed they woke up on this morning. [kidding, that wouldn't help anything]
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright © 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
husker
Forum Regular

Posts: 144
Unit: NHQ-007

« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 02:00:27 PM »

I hear about issues like this too often. Though I rarely know the specifics, I'm always reminded of one of my fellow NESA staff members - his signature on this forum states:

"The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job."

Good advice from Spam and others here.  I only suggest that you politely inquire as to the viability of the denial, and be mindful that CAP is dependent on relationships.  No reason to burn one when issues can normally be amicably worked through.
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Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
Deputy Director, National Emergency Services Academy
nesa.cap.gov
mlong (at) nesa.cap.gov
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