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Author Topic: Running low on space...  (Read 1969 times)
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,089
Unit: SI

« on: September 22, 2017, 10:45:49 AM »

So I have a problem. Since bringing on competent RR and PA people, our squadron is growing.

No seriously, this has become a problem. "If these trends continue" by next year about this time we're going to need a bigger building.

Who here has run into this problem and how have you tackled it? We are exploring options but I'd love to hear how people have handled it before.

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Bayareaflyer 44
Member

Posts: 69
Unit: PCR-CA-096

« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 11:12:15 AM »

Where do you meet?  If you are on an airport, or have access to one – you may be able to work with the administration in finding you more space. 

FAA Order 5190.6B has all kinds of provisions listed in it that allows an airport charge CAP reduce rents; and specifically calls out CAP as one of the aviation related organizations that airports can support.  If the airport has low use/un-rented space, you may be able to score some of that much needed space.
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Earhart #2546
GRW     #3418
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 11:12:42 AM »

We moved. Went from a local community center to a National Guard armory. I know of another unit that went to a local fire department and used some of their open facilities. Another unit I know of had "split" meeting nights. They were a composite and divided into blue and silver teams and met on different nights. They had unit activities on the weekends for flying and ES.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,089
Unit: SI

« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 11:43:06 AM »

Where do you meet?  If you are on an airport, or have access to one – you may be able to work with the administration in finding you more space. 

FAA Order 5190.6B has all kinds of provisions listed in it that allows an airport charge CAP reduce rents; and specifically calls out CAP as one of the aviation related organizations that airports can support.  If the airport has low use/un-rented space, you may be able to score some of that much needed space.

Thank you for the FAA Order. I have reading material now.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 11:54:23 AM »

Where do you meet?  If you are on an airport, or have access to one – you may be able to work with the administration in finding you more space. 

FAA Order 5190.6B has all kinds of provisions listed in it that allows an airport charge CAP reduce rents; and specifically calls out CAP as one of the aviation related organizations that airports can support.  If the airport has low use/un-rented space, you may be able to score some of that much needed space.

From the order: "A sponsor may also charge reduced rental rates to Civil Air Patrol units operating aircraft at the airport." It would not be compliant with the order if they're not operating a plane from there.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,089
Unit: SI

« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2017, 12:18:29 PM »

Where do you meet?  If you are on an airport, or have access to one – you may be able to work with the administration in finding you more space. 

FAA Order 5190.6B has all kinds of provisions listed in it that allows an airport charge CAP reduce rents; and specifically calls out CAP as one of the aviation related organizations that airports can support.  If the airport has low use/un-rented space, you may be able to score some of that much needed space.

From the order: "A sponsor may also charge reduced rental rates to Civil Air Patrol units operating aircraft at the airport." It would not be compliant with the order if they're not operating a plane from there.

We have a plane. We had 2 for a short period and 3 for an even shorter one. But now back to just one again.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 921

« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2017, 01:19:10 PM »

Keep in mind any arising issues if you need to move to a different airport.

Our unit doesn't have an aircraft, but we meet on an airfield. We've considered moving to another larger airport down the road. Without the bird, it wouldn't really cause us any problems. But if we had one, you'd have to make sure all necessary measures and communications are made with moving to a new site.

If you're looking to see what's available on your current field, go to Airport Ops and see what they can find out for you. If they can take you around and show you some spaces, by all means. If there are other tenants that can help, get in touch. But also be prepared to have little to no assistance. They don't know what your specific needs are.

There are units that have a plane based at an airfield but the unit meetings are held at a local community center. So consider that as well.
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Matthew Congrove
Recruit

Posts: 23

« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2017, 04:33:24 PM »

From the order: "A sponsor may also charge reduced rental rates to Civil Air Patrol units operating aircraft at the airport." It would not be compliant with the order if they're not operating a plane from there.

Reading a bit further...

17.19. Exception for Military Aeronautical Units. The FAA acknowledges that many airports
provide facilities to military units with aeronautical missions at nominal lease rates. The FAA
does not consider this practice inconsistent with the requirement for a self-sustaining airport rate
structure. Military units with aeronautical missions may include the Air National Guard,
aviation units of the Army National Guard, the U.S. Air Force Reserve, U.S. Coast Guard, Civil
Air Patrol (CAP) and Naval Reserve air units operating aircraft at the airport. The search and
rescue (SAR) and disaster relief roles played by Coast Guard, the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary, and
the Civil Air Patrol are also recognized as a prime aeronautical role. These units generally
provide services that directly benefit airport operators and safety.

So they see the intrinsic value CAP brings to aviation, regardless of whether we have a plane at the airport or not. We can shut off ELTs, give safety seminars to pilots (e.g. "how to get found"), etc. Not having a plane shouldn't matter when it comes to getting a nominal lease rate.
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Maj. Matthew Congrove, CAP

Eclipse
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Posts: 28,063

« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2017, 04:58:18 PM »

It's the self-sustaining part of the reg that is somewhat subjective and probably in the eyes of an auditor.

I read that as being one justification for providing CAP with free, or cheaper space, but not the only, nor necessarily
tied to having an aircraft there.

More of a
Q:"Why aren't you getting $$$ from Hangar 4?"
A:"CAP"
Or when Hangar 1-3 complain their rent is too high and CAP pays nothing

There are also a lot of other reasons that a given airport can provide space, up to and including "because we felt like it".

My unit meets on a municipal airport, and our meeting space, which would normally be rented, is provided
based on a city airport authority policy about youth and aviation groups.

This is a good problem to have, but thorny when you're in it.  One thing that might loo attractive but
usually fails is splitting the group in to senior and cadet meetings - that tends to create two separate units,
stresses the staff resources, and can wreck unit cohesion.  I tried to for a while and the results were
not worth the hassle.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,677
Unit: of issue

« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2017, 07:09:35 AM »

we have a sort of similar problem that has been sneaking up on us for 10+years.

My unit meets in a National Guard armory. We used to have an office, 3 classrooms and the drill hall to work with.

Subsequently, with remodeling of the armory in the 2005 time frame (turned the indoor rifle range into a DFAC dining room, scabbed a kitchen on the back of the building, eliminated the office we used to add showers and locker rooms to the male & female latrines)  and the reshuffling of units at the armory turning the classrooms into offices, we've been relegated to just the Drill Hall and the DFAC (and our file cabinets are in a tiny, tiny closet off the DFAC with the Sea Cadets).

We have 60+cadets on a nightly basis. Now that is fall and getting colder and darker, we're not outside drilling and such, so inside in the big cavernous drill hall gets... chaotic.  Last night, I'm trying to inprocess 20 new cadets while the squadron is conducting PT tests and "other PT activities". So Inprocessing is going on here,  BCT is still training cadets over there, and in the middle are 40 screaming teenagers.

Madness. We'd have issues really if we were 25 cadets strong, not 60+.  The MOU with the Guard gets more restrictive each year. Now we can't access the drinking fountains in the front foyer because we scuff up the floor after the custodian has mopped/buffed (we also did promotion boards in the foyer because it was adjacent to the drill hall and quiet), so we're out of luck there.  I joke that we're likely to lose the use of the latrines next.

So I have been quietly looking for a new home for the unit for some time.

The adjacent airport has a terminal building that is not fully used. We could offer to the city to spruce it up.  But we'd just get admin and some classroom space there.  No place for the squadron to hold a formation (ours are BIG..70+ people) or drill.

The city converted a former grade school into a community center about a half mile away, but then they knocked half of it down to make it a legit community center, meaning its 18 months from being a possibility now. 

The local tech college is a possibility, but they want $$ for meetings, so thats probably a no-go without a lot of negotiation.

There is a Baptist church in town with a school, and they'd love to  have us (its a half mile from my house), but their facility has other issues, including access restrictions...

We've actually thought about splitting the unit into two separate operating flights that meet elsewhere two or three nights a month and then meet "as a squadron" at the armory 1 or 2 nights a month.  Its still in the "Good Idea Fairy" stage,  because nobody gets what that looks like, exactly. Including me. Its pretty radical.

Having this issue is actually a good thing: it means you're becoming a growing, thriving unit.  Too many CAP squadrons continue their existence within the confines of their facility (church basement,  community center, etc) and its like the "goldfish syndrome": They only grow as big as their environment will support.  And a lot of units don't want to move/change venues (I get that, natural) when it would clearly help them, so they are stuck at approximiately the same size all the time.

It is a problem that requires creative problem solving. A new meeting location won't just sail out of the sky and land in your lap, right?
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
stillamarine
400,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 810
Unit: SER-AL-134

« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 12:20:52 PM »

Does the airport not have a parking lot? Or could you do opening formations on the tarmac in front of the terminal? How busy is the airport during your meeting times? My squadron meets at an airport and utilizes the tarmac for drill and one of the taxiways for pt testing. But it's not very busy during meeting hours.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Robert Hartigan
Forum Regular

Posts: 182
Unit: each

« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 02:36:23 PM »

Does the airport not have a parking lot? Or could you do opening formations on the tarmac in front of the terminal? How busy is the airport during your meeting times? My squadron meets at an airport and utilizes the tarmac for drill and one of the taxiways for pt testing. But it's not very busy during meeting hours.


A brief break from the original topic for an aerospace lesson. The word tarmac is cringeworthy to aviation professionals. See this link for more information. http://aerosavvy.com/aviation-terminology/
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stillamarine
400,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 810
Unit: SER-AL-134

« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 02:45:58 PM »

Does the airport not have a parking lot? Or could you do opening formations on the tarmac in front of the terminal? How busy is the airport during your meeting times? My squadron meets at an airport and utilizes the tarmac for drill and one of the taxiways for pt testing. But it's not very busy during meeting hours.


A brief break from the original topic for an aerospace lesson. The word tarmac is cringeworthy to aviation professionals. See this link for more information. http://aerosavvy.com/aviation-terminology/

Word that was taught to me in the Marine Corps and the one we used talking with the AF regularly and yet no one corrected it then.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,530

« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 02:47:17 PM »

Very strange...

Clicking on the Tarmac link gave me an error message, that it had malware in it.
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Squadron Administrative Officer
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jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,010

« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2017, 03:22:33 PM »

A brief break from the original topic for an aerospace lesson. The word tarmac is cringeworthy to aviation professionals. See this link for more information. http://aerosavvy.com/aviation-terminology/

A) No it's not
B) Depending on what the taxiways, runways, and ramps are made of, tarmac may very well be the most correct word to use.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,677
Unit: of issue

« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2017, 03:48:01 PM »

And

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarmac
Quote
The term is also often used to describe airport aprons (also referred to as "ramps"), taxiways, and runways regardless of the surface.

Oxford Dictionary
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/tarmac
Quote
1.1the tarmac A runway or other area surfaced with tarmac or a similar material.

Cambridge Dictionary
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/tarmac
Quote
an area of ground covered with a hard surface, esp. the areas of an airport where aircraft park, land, and take off

Dictionary.com
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/tarmac
Quote
(lowercase) a road, airport runway, parking area, etc., paved with Tarmac, tarmacadam, or a layer of tar.
(Dictionary.com actually suggests its ONLY the area paved with tarmacadam, vice concrete)


It would seem that AeroSavvy ain't EnglishSavvy.

If you need me, I'll be out on the tarmac.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,076
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2017, 03:59:19 PM »

Tarmac, as originally made, is no longer in use anywhere in the aviation arena, because of its lack of strength and durability. On the other side of the pond, the term migrated to refer to what we call asphalt (properly bituminous concrete). I got educated about tarmac by some Brits years ago.

Brits and Americans - two similar cultures separated by a common language.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 691
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2017, 08:05:47 PM »

For what it’s worth, from my time working for the agency that runs LAX, I only heard “tarmac“ being used by staff members who did not have an aviation background and who did not actually work airside. For example, accountants, PR staff, administrative assistants etc.

Everybody else, the ones who actually knew the difference between blue lights and green lights on the airside, called each component by what it was, not by the archaic term formerly used to described the surface material. Runway, taxiway, ramp, service road, apron...all were included as part of the “AOA” or air operations area. Airline personnel, FAA and service companies did the same. Nary a one ever called it “tarmac” in the 26 years that I was there. The term was also never used in any manuals or policies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

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CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,877

« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2017, 08:30:22 PM »

Tarmac, as originally made, is no longer in use anywhere in the aviation arena, because of its lack of strength and durability. On the other side of the pond, the term migrated to refer to what we call asphalt (properly bituminous concrete). I got educated about tarmac by some Brits years ago.

Brits and Americans - two similar cultures separated by a common language.

And then there's the Australians and whatever they're speaking. And it sure isn't the Queen's English!
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Brit_in_CAP
Seasoned Member

Posts: 362
Unit: MER-VA-002

« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2017, 10:05:18 AM »

Tarmac, as originally made, is no longer in use anywhere in the aviation arena, because of its lack of strength and durability. On the other side of the pond, the term migrated to refer to what we call asphalt (properly bituminous concrete). I got educated about tarmac by some Brits years ago.

Brits and Americans - two similar cultures separated by a common language.

And then there's the Australians and whatever they're speaking. And it sure isn't the Queen's English!

...came here for just this...!  Thanks for brightening my day!

SarDragon is, of course, correct.  The term Tarmac did migrate, and the two countries have long been separated by their language!  I think it was Winston Churchill who coined the phrase.  As for the Aussies..... >:D
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