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Author Topic: AFCENTI 36-2903, OCP = ACU, Ball caps and patches are back.  (Read 4460 times)
Eclipse
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« on: August 31, 2017, 11:37:19 PM »

With reference to this, http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=22315.0

Enjoy.

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/01/afcenti-36-2903/

Major Revisions to AFCENTI 36-2903:
– Expanded wear guidance of the Airman Combat Uniform (ACU), all variations, which were previously referred to as OCPs, Multicam, or Scorpion Pattern
– Clarified guidance for ACU wear of patches, badges and insignias
– Clarification on the prohibition to mix and match camouflage patterns
– Clarification of the wear of rings
– Standard Uniform Postures have been removed but may be addressed in local guidance
– Authorized AEW or AEG/CCs to dictate wear of Airman Combat Shirt (ACS) for those who work outdoors
– Authorized ball caps with ACUs
– Mandated wear of Commanders Insignia Pin

AFCENT will mandate AOR-wide wear of the ACU (non Fire Resistant version) in 2018 with further implementation timeline to follow.







Yes, this currently applies only to AF Central, but that's just likely a matter of time. 
More evidence the USAF will be out of the ABU before CAP is done getting in it.



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PHall
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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 11:53:36 PM »

No, does not mean that at all. The ONLY authorized "combat" uniform in the CENTCOM AOR for Army and Air Force personnel is the OCP.
And it has been since the OCP came about. Before that it was the ACU.
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Jester
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 11:54:06 PM »

I'm sure we'll see someone post pics of an OCP top with CAP tapes and patches soon.

Cue the next decade-long cry for a uniform switch.

I wonder how they'll look with black boots.
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LATORRECA
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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2017, 01:19:44 AM »

Yep

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abdsp51
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 02:49:20 AM »

No, does not mean that at all. The ONLY authorized "combat" uniform in the CENTCOM AOR for Army and Air Force personnel is the OCP.
And it has been since the OCP came about. Before that it was the ACU.

Yes and no.  It's all been location specific.  Deployed to CENTCOM since ACUs came out and never wore them.  And its only been within the last few years that OCPs have been required..
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NIN
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2017, 09:44:46 AM »

Please explain how an AFCENT instruction applies to CAP?

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2017, 12:10:08 PM »

Please explain how an AFCENT instruction applies to CAP?

It doesn't, however it's another indicator that the USAF is working to shape the OCPs into its own image
and is clearly working to move the entire force in that direction, and historically CAP has been
somewhat distracted by what it's older cousin wears.

If CAP adopted it's own uniform, these conversations would be purely anecdotally interesting,
however as it stands, CAP is being set up for all it's "affinity" work to be for naught before the process is
even complete.
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Brit_in_CAP
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« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 01:51:43 PM »


If CAP adopted it's own uniform, these conversations would be purely anecdotally interesting,
however as it stands, CAP is being set up for all it's "affinity" work to be for naught before the process is
even complete.
+1.  Having our own uniform was an opportunity missed. 
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NIN
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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 02:10:55 PM »



+1.  Having our own uniform was an opportunity missed.

Missed in what way?

I'm genuinely curious how further divorcing ourselves from the organization we're the auxiliary of is a missed opportunity.

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JoeTomasone
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 02:14:26 PM »

CAP has been
somewhat distracted by what its older younger cousin wears.


FTFY.   >:D
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 02:22:56 PM »



+1.  Having our own uniform was an opportunity missed.

Missed in what way?

I'm genuinely curious how further divorcing ourselves from the organization we're the auxiliary of is a missed opportunity.

Honestly, it would probably improve our standing in the eyes of the actual members of our parent organization if we -- at least senior members -- looked less like they do.

Many, if not most, of us are middle aged or older and simply do not (in some instances, cannot) meet USAF height/weight standards).

Air Force personnel that know what we do appreciate our contributions, but are uneasy about appearance.

Air Force personnel that are not familiar with us, in my experience, harbor some level of disdain or resent,ent.

If CAP showed some respect for the USAF uniform, by getting all senior mebers out of it, our relationship with the rest of the "Total Force" would, in my opinion, improve considerably.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 02:29:10 PM »

I'm genuinely curious how further divorcing ourselves from the organization we're the auxiliary of is a missed opportunity.

The assumption that having a CAP-specific uniform somehow separates or divorces CAP from the USAF is the fallacy
that allows the uniform carousel to continue, especially in light of the fact that arguably more then 1/2 the adult membership
isn't allowed to wear the USAF variants.

So those in whites and CFUs are divorced from CAP?

A single uniform, which would enhance professionalism and appearance, without the temptation to "fudge 5 50lbs"
would go alot further towards the relationship the the current situation of far too many members, even many in
positions of national leadership, ignore the regs and "do what they will".

If CAP showed some respect for the USAF uniform, by getting all senior mebers out of it, our relationship with the rest of the "Total Force" would, in my opinion, improve considerably.

This.
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Mordecai
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 02:29:39 PM »


If CAP showed some respect for the USAF uniform, by getting all senior mebers out of it, our relationship with the rest of the "Total Force" would, in my opinion, improve considerably.

That's not how you show respect for the uniform. Respect would be working with your members to make sure they are compliant when wearing the uniform.
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Mordecai
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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2017, 02:31:26 PM »

As for enforcement, that is easy. Require every member wearing the AF uniform to be put in the sky once a year. Pilots will take weight/balance notes at that point and by doing so also verify that the member is compliant weight wise.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2017, 02:32:11 PM »


If CAP showed some respect for the USAF uniform, by getting all senior mebers out of it, our relationship with the rest of the "Total Force" would, in my opinion, improve considerably.

That's not how you show respect for the uniform. Respect would be working with your members to make sure they are compliant when wearing the uniform.

If the standards were universally enforced, there's be a lot less blues and ABUs and a lot more white and CFU at every function and meeting.
Absent the will to enforce, your only two other options are abandonment of the option, or hypocrisy.
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stillamarine
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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2017, 02:35:48 PM »

As for enforcement, that is easy. Require every member wearing the AF uniform to be put in the sky once a year. Pilots will take weight/balance notes at that point and by doing so also verify that the member is compliant weight wise.

Do many people carry scales in their planes for people? People tell the drivers license place, that places a number on an official document and they are always honest [/sarcasm]
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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2017, 02:49:20 PM »

I've argued for years there should be an annual weigh-in, the response is generally that it's
unworkable, which is ridiculous.

If you want to wear USAF combos, you get weighed-in at join or renewal by the CC, and some symbol or another
goes on your ID.  Don't want to weigh-in, no issue. 

Also no symbol and no USAFs.

Easy-peasy.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2017, 03:26:56 PM »



+1.  Having our own uniform was an opportunity missed.

Missed in what way?

I'm genuinely curious how further divorcing ourselves from the organization we're the auxiliary of is a missed opportunity.

Air Force civilian employees and contractors are part of the Total Force, yet they don't wear an Air Force uniform. Most civilian security guards at Air Force bases wear uniforms that do not resemble Air Force uniforms at all, yet they're also part of the Total Force.

We are part of the Air Force Total Force because of what we do in support of the Air Force and our Nation, not because of what we wear. If that was the case, then many of our members would not be part of the Total Force, yet they are.

The Air Force is not pushing for us to wear their uniforms; we are pushing to continue wearing Air Force-style uniforms even though we know many of our members are unable to do so, yet their contributions to CAP and the Air Force are significant.

Wanting a single uniform that all our members can wear is not "divorcing ourselves" from the Air Force; it's actually acknowledging that we are a single organization and that, while we are the Air Force Auxiliary, we're not service members, but volunteer civilians performing a non-combat role for the Air Force.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2017, 03:30:31 PM »

As for enforcement, that is easy. Require every member wearing the AF uniform to be put in the sky once a year. Pilots will take weight/balance notes at that point and by doing so also verify that the member is compliant weight wise.

Good luck with that.  I have no desire to be in a light aircraft and I sure as heck would fight any idea to put me in one just to find out if I am within H/W.
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Mordecai
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2017, 05:20:44 PM »

As for enforcement, that is easy. Require every member wearing the AF uniform to be put in the sky once a year. Pilots will take weight/balance notes at that point and by doing so also verify that the member is compliant weight wise.

Good luck with that.  I have no desire to be in a light aircraft and I sure as heck would fight any idea to put me in one just to find out if I am within H/W.

You're part of the exempt classified unit, so you're good.
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DocJekyll
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2017, 06:30:36 PM »

As for enforcement, that is easy. Require every member wearing the AF uniform to be put in the sky once a year. Pilots will take weight/balance notes at that point and by doing so also verify that the member is compliant weight wise.

Good luck with that.  I have no desire to be in a light aircraft and I sure as heck would fight any idea to put me in one just to find out if I am within H/W.

You're part of the exempt classified unit, so you're good.

Don't know what you're talking about, and neither do you. *random guys in black suits come from nowhere and carry you off into the distance*
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Spam
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« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2017, 06:56:41 PM »

At last weekends Commanders Call, I brought a digital floor scale down in front of the assembled Group and Squadron Commanders, and the boss and my brother CV and I self-weighed in front of them, read the hard copy of the applicable 39-1 page, and announced our results.  We then told the assembled commanders that we expected them to expect ALL of their people who want to wear USAF style to do the same.

I cautioned the commanders against lecturing members on their weight; their weight per se is not our business, but members desiring to wear the USAF style uniform should expect to be able to demonstrate compliance with 39-1. We want people of all talents and abilities in CAP - but are required by regulations to put a fence around the optional wear of USAF style.

Continued integrity issues with simple compliance on this issue are leading indicators of unsafe attitudes towards far more serious compliance with operational issues. (I think Patton probably would have phrased that more succinctly, but I'm not Patton).

V/r
Spam

PS, for the record, I am 6'4" and 310. My eServices record matches that. Noncompliant, which is why I have a closet of dusty USAF style. If a member is self delusional enough to try to sneak an extra 20 lbs in on top of the added CAP weight margin, you will find me unsympathetic... enough so to initiate an adverse member action, as we cant afford to lose base access, etc.

PPS now why are we wasting time talking about AFCENT directives.  :-\

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etodd
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« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2017, 08:06:37 PM »

While sitting around awhile at the last Eval, waiting for my flight release, I sat in a corner, watching the dozens of folks milling around, in and out getting their work done. When it comes to uniforms, my general observation that day was the folks in polos seemed more casual, at ease, and happy. The others just seemed so tense. I dunno. Just something I've noticed.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2017, 11:29:05 AM »

While sitting around awhile at the last Eval, waiting for my flight release, I sat in a corner, watching the dozens of folks milling around, in and out getting their work done. When it comes to uniforms, my general observation that day was the folks in polos seemed more casual, at ease, and happy. The others just seemed so tense. I dunno. Just something I've noticed.


Well sure, confirmation bias is a thing.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2017, 11:44:23 AM »

+1 Perhaps they were taking their role and situation in a more serious, business like fashion.

One thing that makes me crazy is people who treat ICPs like a gardening club, both in manner of dress and behavior.
People are there to work.  When you're done. GO HOME.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2017, 02:33:45 AM »



+1.  Having our own uniform was an opportunity missed.

Missed in what way?

I'm genuinely curious how further divorcing ourselves from the organization we're the auxiliary of is a missed opportunity.


For all the talk about "parent organization," the reality is that more CAP members work with and relate to other CAP members than they do to USAF members. That is especially true when it comes time to climb into utility type uniforms. Getting them into one WAS a lost opportunity.


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jjmalott
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« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2017, 12:38:48 PM »

Good thing I'm just here for the food...........
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Jeff Malott, Lt Col, CAP
Eclipse
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« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2017, 12:49:53 PM »

For all the talk about "parent organization," the reality is that more CAP members work with and relate to other CAP members than they do to USAF members. That is especially true when it comes time to climb into utility type uniforms. Getting them into one WAS a lost opportunity.

Very true - the days of the regular CAP-RAP visits are long gone, so for the average member who doesn't staff an encampment,
get involved in ES, or participate in NCSAs, they may literally never see or meet anyone in the USAF, or any other service for that matter.
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CAPLTC
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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2017, 09:10:44 PM »

I wonder how they'll look with black boots.
They will look VASTLY better than this bizarro tiger stripe pattern currently approved.

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TX CAP Mom
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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2017, 01:23:27 AM »

So in your honest opinion, should I not purchase my cadet a set of ABUs? He has BDUs and Blues as provided by his Squadron. But he needs another set apparently for encampment and they don’t have anything in his size. But more importantly he WANTS the ABUs as he perceives them as more important. Most of his staff wears them so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Gotta have ‘em.

I can invest ~$50 and get him his ABUs but I do hate to do that if another switch is imminent. What say you? Don’t worry about more changes for a 13 year old that will outgrow what he has now anyways? Seems like to me if he got a year out of them I’d be fine with that. Think we have that long before more changes trickle down?
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Spam
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2017, 01:49:24 AM »

Hi, Mom (*grins)

No, don't worry.

I would urge you to go ahead and purchase the ABUs, and kit him out accordingly. This thread is interesting but entirely speculative, based on local uniform changes for personnel on the other side of the world, not your guy. Stick with the ABUs, and be sure to get them nice and big and baggy for him to grow into. It will be the 2020s or later before CAP ever goes this route and even then we'll have a two to three year phase in period (as we do now with ABUs).

V/r
Spam

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Jester
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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2017, 02:03:11 AM »

So in your honest opinion, should I not purchase my cadet a set of ABUs? He has BDUs and Blues as provided by his Squadron. But he needs another set apparently for encampment and they don’t have anything in his size. But more importantly he WANTS the ABUs as he perceives them as more important. Most of his staff wears them so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Gotta have ‘em.

I can invest ~$50 and get him his ABUs but I do hate to do that if another switch is imminent. What say you? Don’t worry about more changes for a 13 year old that will outgrow what he has now anyways? Seems like to me if he got a year out of them I’d be fine with that. Think we have that long before more changes trickle down?

Concur with Spam.  If it happens at all, late 2020s is the absolute earliest I could ever envision it with CAP (ABUs aren't even phased in completely until 2021), and I would probably say 2030s is the more reasonable estimate.

But, as said earlier, this is all speculation and a whole lot of dominoes have to fall for this to even be a possibility for CAP.

But I swear, if in 2030 or whenever we get OCPs, we're still stuck with black boots, I'm burning my membership card.  :D
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BuckeyeDEJ
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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2017, 11:39:07 PM »

The Air Force is not pushing for us to wear their uniforms; we are pushing to continue wearing Air Force-style uniforms even though we know many of our members are unable to do so, yet their contributions to CAP and the Air Force are significant.

Wanting a single uniform that all our members can wear is not "divorcing ourselves" from the Air Force; it's actually acknowledging that we are a single organization and that, while we are the Air Force Auxiliary, we're not service members, but volunteer civilians performing a non-combat role for the Air Force.

Funny, but the Air Force side of the house — and I don't mean CAP-USAF, but further up the food chain — has been asking why CAP has dissed the "auxiliary" status and nomenclature. Seems Ma Blue wants to draw us closer. I have no problem with that.

And yet another uniform thread. For the love of Pete, is that all CAP people can do — complain about uniforms?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2017, 11:47:33 PM »

So in your honest opinion, should I not purchase my cadet a set of ABUs? He has BDUs and Blues as provided by his Squadron. But he needs another set apparently for encampment and they don’t have anything in his size. But more importantly he WANTS the ABUs as he perceives them as more important. Most of his staff wears them so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Gotta have ‘em.

If he has BDUs, why waste the money until he actually needs another uniform - if he goes to encampment, and they require more then one
set, that's a good "excuse", but beyond that, neither is more "important" then the other.

Quote
I can invest ~$50 and get him his ABUs but I do hate to do that if another switch is imminent. What say you? Don’t worry about more changes for a 13 year old that will outgrow what he has now anyways? Seems like to me if he got a year out of them I’d be fine with that. Think we have that long before more changes trickle down?

You're more likely looking at closer to $100+.  That's assuming you do your own sewing.
Remember you in addition to the shirt and pants, you need new t-shirts, belt, hat, and all new insignia / tapes.

He can wear woodland outerwear until June, but after that will need that as well.

[fixed quotes]
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 02:08:09 AM by SarDragon » Logged

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TX CAP Mom
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2017, 12:02:34 AM »

So in your honest opinion, should I not purchase my cadet a set of ABUs? He has BDUs and Blues as provided by his Squadron. But he needs another set apparently for encampment and they don’t have anything in his size. But more importantly he WANTS the ABUs as he perceives them as more important. Most of his staff wears them so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Gotta have ‘em.

I can invest ~$50 and get him his ABUs but I do hate to do that if another switch is imminent. What say you? Don’t worry about more changes for a 13 year old that will outgrow what he has now anyways? Seems like to me if he got a year out of them I’d be fine with that. Think we have that long before more changes trickle down?

Concur with Spam.  If it happens at all, late 2020s is the absolute earliest I could ever envision it with CAP (ABUs aren't even phased in completely until 2021), and I would probably say 2030s is the more reasonable estimate.

But, as said earlier, this is all speculation and a whole lot of dominoes have to fall for this to even be a possibility for CAP.

But I swear, if in 2030 or whenever we get OCPs, we're still stuck with black boots, I'm burning my membership card.  :D
So in your honest opinion, should I not purchase my cadet a set of ABUs? He has BDUs and Blues as provided by his Squadron. But he needs another set apparently for encampment and they don’t have anything in his size. But more importantly he WANTS the ABUs as he perceives them as more important. Most of his staff wears them so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Gotta have ‘em.

Quote
If he has BDUs, why waste the money until he actually needs another uniform - if he goes to encampment, and they require more then one
set, that's a good "excuse", but beyond that, neither is more "important" then the other.

I can invest ~$50 and get him his ABUs but I do hate to do that if another switch is imminent. What say you? Don’t worry about more changes for a 13 year old that will outgrow what he has now anyways? Seems like to me if he got a year out of them I’d be fine with that. Think we have that long before more changes trickle down?

You're more likely looking at closer to $100+.  That's assuming you do your own sewing.
Remember you in addition to the shirt and pants, you need new t-shirts, belt, hat, and all new insignia / tapes.

He can wear woodland outerwear until June, but after that will need that as well.
Hi, Mom (*grins)

No, don't worry.

I would urge you to go ahead and purchase the ABUs, and kit him out accordingly. This thread is interesting but entirely speculative, based on local uniform changes for personnel on the other side of the world, not your guy. Stick with the ABUs, and be sure to get them nice and big and baggy for him to grow into. It will be the 2020s or later before CAP ever goes this route and even then we'll have a two to three year phase in period (as we do now with ABUs).

V/r
Spam
Thanks for the replies. I found pants, blouse, and cover for <$50 at local military surplus so that's good. I did forget that he'll need a new belt and he's got the right t-shirts already. So it's all good. I also was given extra tapes when I ordered them, and had the foresight to already have an extra Wing patch on hand too. Eclipse, he needs this second set for Encampment in a couple of months, not next summer. He'll go to the Winter one.

Interesting that you mention the outerwear. I have NO idea what to get him for colder weather. Is this a good place to ask? I don't understand the sections in 39-1 about this, so please don't point me there. We are in TX so we don't need much for colder weather, perhaps warm long sleeve shirts suffice, but it does sometimes get pretty cold. Is there any jacket I could get him that he could wear with both Blues and BDU/ABU? Like a plain black coat of some kind?

[fixed quotes]
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 02:10:24 AM by SarDragon » Logged
Spam
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Unit: GA-001

« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2017, 12:06:56 AM »


Funny, but the Air Force side of the house — and I don't mean CAP-USAF, but further up the food chain — has been asking why CAP has dissed the "auxiliary" status and nomenclature. Seems Ma Blue wants to draw us closer. I have no problem with that.


I hate to throw out that super snarky "Cite, Please" rejoinder, but, Buckeye, if you please, where did you hear that USAF senior leadership had made such comments? That is completely new to me.

Thanks - I am interested.
Spam

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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 972
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2017, 12:14:26 AM »

Hi again TX Mom.

Good deal - and good on you!

For cold weather gear, there have been several threads on that here. Rather than laborious cut and paste, you might want to try the "search" tool, searching for "ABUs" + "Cold".

The short answer is, many under layers to start with (long johns, thermal shirts, socks, etc.) coupled with authorized ABU outerwear, coupled with existing 39-1 authorization to wear headgear to keep little ears nice and warm, and finally there is a supplemental letter authorizing the wear of woodland camo Field Jackets until phase out.

That's it - no plain black coats authorized (for ABUs). No civilian jackets at all, in fact.

Best wishes,
Spam

Edit: here are the current references. I omitted the goretex parks, for example:

https://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/cap-transition-to-abus-announced

https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/UPDATED_ABU_wear_instruction_20_Jul_F9C2512038FC2.pdf
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 12:18:23 AM by Spam » Logged
DocJekyll
Member

Posts: 96

« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2017, 07:40:26 AM »

Hey Spam,

There's a more up to date wear memorandum (Oct 24th):

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/1220/0/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS8xNTA2Njg1MTQxL3NpZC91OXBTTlZ0bg==/filename/UPDATED+ABU+wear+instructions+%2824+October+2016%29.pdf

looks like it went missing from Capmembers though? Odd.
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Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 972
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2017, 02:33:42 PM »

Thanks!  Knew I was missing something there.
Spam
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Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,887

« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2017, 07:48:24 AM »

Remember this idea from 2007? That was funny...

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Nick
Seasoned Member

Posts: 473
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2017, 12:09:04 PM »

Heck, I’d be happy if they let us wear that style uniform in blue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,886

« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2017, 01:54:03 PM »

Is it even available in blue? >:D
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,170

« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2017, 02:50:23 PM »

Ahh...Yep.

And it's less expensive than the ABU.
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hamburgee
Recruit

Posts: 26

« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2017, 03:10:00 PM »

Can someone send a link to where to find these in different colors? I've looked it up but haven't been able to find it.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: AFCENTI 36-2903, OCP = ACU, Ball caps and patches are back.
 


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