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December 17, 2017, 04:09:43 AM
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: CAP's Non-Response to Harvey
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Author Topic: CAP's Non-Response to Harvey  (Read 3345 times)
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 626

« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2017, 01:50:57 AM »

Waiting until after the disaster is over to create a response plan for people and planes seems a bit late.

Again, preparations are on-going. We have LOs in multiple locations working with multiple organizations including State Guard, Nat'l Guard, and at the State SOC. We are preparing now while the disaster is unfolding so we're ready to go the moment we're able to, currently tracking for Wednesday.

So is CAP's response going to be strictly aircraft? That's too bad, the marketing materials suggest we can do more than that. But I of course do understand we have to wait for the weather to clear before our aircraft can fly and take pictures.


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I haven't heard a peep from my unit/group/wing/region/NHQ emergency services folks.

Sounds like an issue for your unit/group/wing, then. TXWG has been communicating routinely to the wider audience as they coordinate with NHQ, and there's a flurry of activity at the lower levels, especially here in Austin/Group 5. I went through numerous HURR/TS during my 10+ years in FLWG, and the communication and coordination on-going for Harvey surpasses.

Ok, fair enough. Care to share here what the national response plan is since I apparently can't count on my wing?

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... Texas wing is able to handle the entire CAP response to this disaster?.

TXWG is bigger than most; we have more personnel in the Houston-area alone (~1,000) than many CAP wings have total. Putting out an all-call and having 3 people from New York be able to take a week off work and afford to come help isn't effective. If assistance is needed, I'm sure coordination with nearby wings (OKWG, LAWG) will be a priority.
I would think the Red Cross has more people in Texas than most states, Salvation Army probably has more people in Texas that most states, and so forth. But if TXWG can work this monumental disaster alone, than goodness, you guys are a model for the rest of the country (I say that without internet sarcasm). I do think though that if we were providing all the services we advertise that we do, I think TXWG would need help. If we're solely in the business of flying photo sorties, then we need to stop pretending we do anything else (none of which is TXWG's fault). I know this is back-of-the-envelope math here, but how long do you think TXWG can sustain a high ops tempo photo mission on its own? A week? Month? You request backup before you need it, not when you need it. But if it's a month away, the delay is understandable.

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I have no problem at all with criticizing CAP's response to a disaster, as we all need to constantly be learning and evolving, especially with the meteoric rise of technology that's suited for such taskings. I just think that criticizing a "non-response" in the middle of the disaster is premature, and doesn't help in any way. As it stands, we are exactly on track for where we need to be to respond at the appropriate time with the standard HURR/TS CAP taskings.

If we do all the things we claim we do, we should have mobilized by now (before the disaster, not in the middle of it, just like every other disaster response agency). But if we're limited to aerial photography, then yes, I certainly understand why WMIRS still shows zero activity.

Best wishes to TXWG, stay safe and make the rest of CAP proud.
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♠SARKID♠
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,831
Unit: GLR-WI-002

Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2017, 02:28:32 AM »

Waiting until after the disaster is over to create a response plan for people and planes seems a bit late....I haven't heard a peep from my unit/group/wing/region/NHQ emergency services folks.

A sample size of one; we got our warning order Sunday night. Maybe your locale is slow on the uptake, but bags are being packed.

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As others have said for better than I can, the reason we're not going is we're not prepared for disaster response. There's no training, no doctrine, and no plans for either. These types of disasters become blank-check-all-hands-on-deck FEMA responses, yet CAP can't seem to do more than do some AP sorties. Which is also likely all we're capable of right now.

So get on it. Those teams are deploying because they trained and prepared for this. If you're going to wait for CAP to do it for you, give up now and take up golf. It's much faster and there's nicer polo shirts. Find the teams around you that are deploying, make some connections, and starting having playdates. Take what you learn, build a training plan, execute it, go forth and multiply.
You make AP sorties sound like the short end of the stick. Is it fun for us ground guys? Of course not, but it's not like CAP is being given a coloring book and told to sit quiet in the corner.

If we do all the things we claim we do, we should have mobilized by now (before the disaster, not in the middle of it, just like every other disaster response agency). But if we're limited to aerial photography, then yes, I certainly understand why WMIRS still shows zero activity.

What exactly is being claimed and who is "we"? Be careful to not let your ideal image of what CAP should be affect your perception of what CAP actually is. Despite the fact that on occasion we've done it, I've never heard CAPNHQ come out and say that we're equipped to send ground personnel into disaster areas and perform rescue operations. Or pass out water or fill a sand bag for that matter. Air ops? Totes McGotes they fly that banner on a gold brick flagpole. But DR ground ops? A vague footnote in a recruiting brochure at best.

The word of the day is "Wednesday". Are we spearheading the invasion of Texas? No. But second wave isn't half bad for a bunch of weekend warriors.


Sidenote: There's a mission in WMIRS called "Spicy Sauerkraut". So that's a thing...
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           Capt. Dan Turkal
..
                WI-002/CC
.
N6RVT
Member

Posts: 67
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2017, 09:24:35 AM »

We have quite a large fleet of small planes that could fly in small loads of supplies in a continuous stream from the surrounding states. Single pilot crew transport flights to maximize payload. Even in a C-172, with average pilot size, you could fill it with nearly 400 pounds of supplies per flight. A couple dozen planes flying just one flight per day each,  could get quite a few tons of supplies into some of these areas in short order.
Coast Guard Aux Aviation just mobilized every plane and everyone fully trained who could go.  I'm only still here because I haven't flown all my trainee hours yet.
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Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
N6RVT
Member

Posts: 67
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2017, 09:44:48 AM »

We have quite a large fleet of small planes that could fly in small loads of supplies in a continuous stream from the surrounding states. Single pilot crew transport flights to maximize payload. Even in a C-172, with average pilot size, you could fill it with nearly 400 pounds of supplies per flight. A couple dozen planes flying just one flight per day each,  could get quite a few tons of supplies into some of these areas in short order.
Coast Guard Aux Aviation just mobilized every plane and everyone fully trained who could go.  I'm only still here because I haven't flown all my trainee hours yet.
Every trailerable boat is already gone.  As you might expect, that did come first.
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Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,973

« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2017, 02:42:52 PM »

Perhaps you've heard the saying, "All politics is local".

There is an analogy to DR service.

Personal relationships make a difference.

Taking the training courses from FEMA, ARC, Salvation Army helps.

Participating in multi-agency exercises on the city, county and state levels makes a huge difference. CAP starts to develop a reputation and a track record. Emergency management officers in government, sheriff's officers and others who coordinate wide scale response begin to get a sense of our capabilities and limitations.

This can include CAP cadets...planning sessions for exercises provide a chance to explain our members' training, and the liability insurance programs that cover CAP.

Exercise participation lets us show DR partners that we are not offering "kids", but trained and qualified CAP cadets to undertake age-appropriate work...which could free up more experienced personnel for more mission-critical duties.

I am aware of instances in which ARC, for instance, loves to get cadets' help with shelter management. Most ARC shelter managers are on the older side, and appreciate some young, energetic helpers setting up cots, moving cases of food and bottled water, doing administrative lists and inventories, and so forth.

National, and most wings, have MOUs or similar documents with a variety of DR response agencies...but implementing them is still something for the wing to direct, and the local groups and squadrons to accomplish.

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Disenchanted
Recruit

Posts: 8

« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2017, 09:22:51 PM »

Another faith based organization involved in Harvey Operations is Southern Baptist Disaster Relief. 
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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 132
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2017, 11:42:37 PM »

http://www.newson6.com/story/36267659/oklahoma-civil-air-patrol-leaves-for-texas

http://www.mitchellrepublic.com/news/state/4320649-south-dakota-civil-air-patrol-sending-aircraft-texas
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JoeTomasone
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,660

« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2017, 09:44:47 AM »


I am aware of instances in which ARC, for instance, loves to get cadets' help with shelter management. Most ARC shelter managers are on the older side, and appreciate some young, energetic helpers setting up cots, moving cases of food and bottled water, doing administrative lists and inventories, and so forth.

I took a weekend-long ARC shelter management course as a Cadet back in the '80s.
 
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2017, 01:29:54 AM »

Off topic, but I wonder if anyone is somehow able to track just how many people have been saved from their flooded homes by the "bass boat, jon boat, SeaDoo good ol boys"?

Based on the video and photos I've seen, I'd bet its a very big percentage of the people being brought out.

Probably never know the numbers. Heads will be counted at relief shelters and the media will assume the gov't response teams did it all. LOL
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MS - MO - AP - MP
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,885

« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2017, 12:20:38 PM »

Well, when you look at the resources the first responders and the National Guard had to make water rescues and the shear number of requests it's a very good thing  that "civilians" stepped up to help their neighbors.
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Johnny Yuma
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 594

« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2017, 08:20:36 PM »

It appears that all this thread has done is given Aux Buffoon News more ammunition to attack CAP and its members. 
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"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,885

« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2017, 08:58:52 PM »

It appears that all this thread has done is given Aux Buffoon News more ammunition to attack CAP and its members.

They do that even when we don't give them any ammo. ::)
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,085
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2017, 11:23:35 PM »

Yeah, I think we're done here.

More encouraging info here.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: CAP's Non-Response to Harvey
 


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