Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 21, 2017, 04:30:35 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: CAP's Non-Response to Harvey
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All Print
Author Topic: CAP's Non-Response to Harvey  (Read 2768 times)
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 789

« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2017, 11:29:05 AM »

So many of the very first responders to Katrina were volunteer church groups. Who brought in portable kitchens and more, feeding tens of thousands of meals DAYS before the Feds came in.

There are opportunities and ways to help.

And to repeat from page one ... this is very important. Sometimes our ideas of helping can be a nightmare actually. Please share this link:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-disaster-relief-brings-anything-but-relief/
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2017, 11:32:02 AM »

How many of those others agencies you mention depend on so many teenagers for the ground work? The teens are a big part of our chartered  mission, but greatly hinders  our ability in many areas to 'pick up and go'.

In terms of Ground Operations --

Rule Number 1:
Cadet Programs is NOT Emergency Services, and Emergency Services is NOT Cadet Programs. 

Most broken rule in Civil Air Patrol:
Rule Number 1.

As a former Wing DR guy, it breaks my heart to see something like Harvey happen (as we speak), and hear NOTHING about mobilizing the thousands of CAP members out there that want to help.

To see the now viral picture of the elderly trapped in the nursing home, with water up to their waists, and the desperate pleas for more and more boats, and to know CAP is so risk averse to any real ground operations (because of the fear little Jimmy might get hurt), is just.......depressing.

Among other cultural issues, it has been our downfall.


There was a time when............


As corollaries to that Rule, how about a couple more suggestions?


Rule 2: we QUALIFY people based on demonstrated ability to meet minimum standards, regardless of age, sex, color, etc. Thus, we will sign people off regardless of if they're teenagers or in their seventies.

Rule 3: we SELECT people for deployment and specific tasking based on factors including physical capability, mental experience, and financial (*e.g. job/school impacts of being away) ability to complete the anticipated tasking. Thus, if I need a team to fly an IFR ELT hop, I'm cherry picking a crew based on all the advice I can get, and I'm doing the same with ground team folks for extended periods or technical work.

Rule 4: we DEPLOY people in accordance with plans and MOUS that are (ideally) exercised regularly to reinforce bonds and communication with our agency customers. Without a deployment plan (to include a sustainment plan in place) and without a clear set of rules of engagement, taskings, and withdrawal criteria, we should never put our teams and aircrews down range where they become a liability. We should never go in, without knowing when/how we will get out (and the criteria for why/when we will withdraw).


Within the above construct, it can and has been possible to take minors (qualified, selected, deployed IAW a good plan) to conduct DR ops in '15 inches of water' as Hornet says. I did so safely in the great flood of 93, routinely, and my people earned their accolades. However, as Dirty Harry said, a man's got to know his limitations, and I'm afraid Id agree that most of us haven't been planning for major deployments nor documenting those plans nor negotiating them and practicing them.


So... will we? We're (re)writing the plans in our Wing, with the specific objective to exercise them next year in a scenario where half our Wing will be in self care mode, and the other half will project aircrews, GTs, and base staff to preplanned bases (my conops for the "hunker down" half is that they'd play visiting crews/teams from out of state, so we can train to accommodate a surge to full ramps/lots). I've been beating that drum for decades though and mostly on my own, so I'm not holding out hope - I agree with Eclipse here. We have almost no doctrine, almost no willingness to write and update and exercise realistic plans for major deployments, etc. and a serious delusion that real world events happen just as they would on a sunny Saturday SAREX where everyone is off work and available and gets cheeseburgers between scheduled sorties.


How many Wings routinely have such plans as required in the 60 series pubs, and practice them and update them with their EMA customers?  Few. How many of you keyboard warriors have devoted time to help WRITE A PLAN AS REQUIRED, and then TRAIN TO THE PLAN, rather than criticize and complain here? Absent that, I'd say acting on the itchy desire to go there and "do stuff" could make things far, far worse. 


Unless you've been there, done these types of missions and are working in your area to meet the planning and operational requirements, I suggest you give TX Wing a break. They're busy. They will call for your expert help when ready per an executable supportable plan, for the right people for the job (age, sex, and funny hats aside).


V/r
Spam

Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 705

« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2017, 11:36:23 AM »

During Hurricane Matthew last year CAP had cadets in flooded areas with zero safety incidents.  The job could not have been done without them either.  There just wasn't enough SMs to go around.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,898

« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2017, 11:50:30 AM »

During Hurricane Matthew last year CAP had cadets in flooded areas with zero safety incidents.  The job could not have been done without them either.  There just wasn't enough SMs to go around.

Which begs the question as to whether CAP should have been involved at all.

You also really can't compare CAP to other volunteer groups, churches, etc., not even the ARC, since
the scales of response don't line up.

I could go right now and grab 5 guys and vigilante all over TX, to great press coverage and probably good effect.  CAP doesn't do that.

And the ARC has huge money with nothing but essentially a single-threaded mission - DR in all it's forms.  CAP doesn't have the money, nor the focus.

The bigger, more far-reaching problem is that CAP doesn't learn anything from it's mistakes, nor adjust ops based on the situation.
It's all "Getting started with SAR 101" with every incident, and generally fails on the logistical side nearly completely, and one of the non-trivial
reasons for this is the shortage of manpower, established teams, and established doctrine.

No one can say who is going, when, for how long, or where the money is coming from for anything but AVGAS.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 875

« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2017, 11:51:29 AM »


Setting up a donation cache and collecting clothes, food, and other relief items to be distributed, or having a bottled water stand, is within the purview of any CAP unit to run without higher-level oversight.

PLEASE read this before setting up any facility to collect goods. Its important:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-disaster-relief-brings-anything-but-relief/

Absolutely true, and good article on it.

I was just speaking generally, and more so using it as an example in the locale.



@Spam,
Great point.

I have yet to see the SAREX that really trains for a major disaster. I've the IC setup, and sending out the air crew and ground crew sorties for SAR. Show me the mass casualty conflicts and flood zones.

I think a major contributor to why it's not often done is due to the logistics of it, including the finances that can go into training something like that. That's a very real scenario that requires a lot of training.

Playing IC/TOC and chasing down a target in a van is not the same as putting on waders and searching flooded homes.

Now I get, that's the gung-ho aspect of SAR. That's the stuff nobody wants to really have to see but gives some of that rush---whether helping people or being in the middle of the adrenaline swarm that is a natural disaster, whatever the reason may be. There's that whole other side with performing logistical functions and support roles which is still very important.

CAP is so widespread at times and fickle in how things are trained and how people prepare. There's a lot of "This is what we're interested in, so this is what we'll train." Some Wings, and even some squadrons, are very close with their state agencies and really do "train for the fight." Others do more of the lost aircraft, missing person SAR training than the disaster relief SAR. They're too very different worlds.

I have essential zero experience in performing disaster relief. I have a huge respect for it and I wouldn't mind getting into it. But it's a lot more than "I'd love to help out! Where do you need me?"

One thing I don't feel like we do enough in any of our training in CAP is dealing with victims and the human impact. How many people are experienced in grief counseling and dealing with emotionally traumatic scenarios? There's a significant psychological aspect that goes into that type of job. And we don't teach it enough, if at all in most exercises. I think, a lot of times, we try to avoid focusing on those areas to sensitize the topic. We do the first aid training, the PowerPoints, the lectures, the CPR exercises. Show me the mass casualties, severe injuries, families grieving who lost their homes or loved ones. That's what this type of job takes. Working in an airline, we regularly train in incident response to air disasters. We have to simulate calling families of victims and doing the notifications, and there's people that can't really handle that. Now try being there in person at the scene. Send someone who has never been to an accident scene, even a mock-up, and expect them to not break down---bad idea.
Logged
Matthew Congrove
Recruit

Posts: 23

« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2017, 11:52:10 AM »

Waiting until after the disaster is over to create a response plan for people and planes seems a bit late.

Again, preparations are on-going. We have LOs in multiple locations working with multiple organizations including State Guard, Nat'l Guard, and at the State SOC. We are preparing now while the disaster is unfolding so we're ready to go the moment we're able to, currently tracking for Wednesday.

If you think that it's clear enough for us to go in now, I provide the following insight from Houston METs/journos:

"Buffalo Bayou—the main river in downtown Houston—now expected to rise another *11 feet* above current levels by Tuesday night." (2 hours ago)
"We're still in the height of this multi-day disaster." (2 hours ago)
"Harris County says they've performed 1500-2000 high-water #harvey2017 rescues. Other state resources are having trouble getting in." (10 hours ago)

I haven't heard a peep from my unit/group/wing/region/NHQ emergency services folks.

Sounds like an issue for your unit/group/wing, then. TXWG has been communicating routinely to the wider audience as they coordinate with NHQ, and there's a flurry of activity at the lower levels, especially here in Austin/Group 5. I went through numerous HURR/TS during my 10+ years in FLWG, and the communication and coordination on-going for Harvey surpasses.

... Texas wing is able to handle the entire CAP response to this disaster?.

TXWG is bigger than most; we have more personnel in the Houston-area alone (~1,000) than many CAP wings have total. Putting out an all-call and having 3 people from New York be able to take a week off work and afford to come help isn't effective. If assistance is needed, I'm sure coordination with nearby wings (OKWG, LAWG) will be a priority.

I have no problem at all with criticizing CAP's response to a disaster, as we all need to constantly be learning and evolving, especially with the meteoric rise of technology that's suited for such taskings. I just think that criticizing a "non-response" in the middle of the disaster is premature, and doesn't help in any way. As it stands, we are exactly on track for where we need to be to respond at the appropriate time with the standard HURR/TS CAP taskings.
Logged
Maj. Matthew Congrove, CAP

Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,509

« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2017, 12:16:16 PM »

I took some of the American Red Cross classes on disaster preparedness and management. Among the things they told us is they not only get monetary donations, and Federal money, but some of the money they collect for their courses ends up in Disaster Relief.

And the video that etodd listed reminded me of this training. ARC does not collect clothing. Instead they donate money to survivors. Because their studies have shown that:

1) the most any survivor needs is to be able to get to work, donated clothes will not fit the requirement of going back to work clothes
2) survivors receiving donated clothes mark them psychic, it is best for them to get monetary contributions since they can get their own needs.

Lastly, when Sept 11 happened, while I was "secretly hoping" there would be missions closer to ground zero and not getting any, I got a call to assist in a donated food pantry sorting food donations. We had to make sure among the donations were 1) no cans with rusted spots, and there were plenty, and 2) that no food donations the pantry was to make could have cans of food from the FDA food program, and again there were plenty.
Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
JoeTomasone
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,659

« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2017, 12:22:54 PM »

One could also check our own news site....  #justsaying

http://www.cap.news/texas-wing-prepares-for-hurricane-harvey-aftermath/

"The state of Texas has tasked the wing with taking photos of the damage and flooded areas along the coast. Additional tasking of ground teams may be requested to deactivate emergency position indicating radio beacon locator transmitters on boats damaged during the storm.

Col. Sean Crandall, Texas Wing commander, has asked members to check their equipment and be prepared to start flying as early as Wednesday. Mission activities will coincide with preparation for Civil Air Patrol’s National Conference this week at the San Antonio Marriott Rivercenter, so a temporary incident command post will be set up at the hotel."

Logged
Cicero
Recruit

Posts: 49

« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2017, 01:06:21 PM »

I appreciate the positive responses. Looks like Texas Wing is doing an awesome job. If you need help, do call out!
Logged
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,994

« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2017, 04:31:17 PM »

I love all the people not in Texas who assume that there is no response because they haven't heard about it. Classic.
Logged

If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,898

« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2017, 04:38:40 PM »

I love all the people not in Texas who assume that there is no response because they haven't heard about it. Classic.

I don't think anyone is insinuating that - obviously TXWG, SER and SWR will be heavily involved, if for no
other reason then they are standing in the water.

It's the "dragging people across the country" non-plans that were the start of this.

If TXWG can sustain their own ops, good on 'ye - that wasn't the case for other recent similar incidents in other parts
of the country, nor is it consistent across the organization.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,898

« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2017, 04:59:05 PM »

I'll say this, every photo I see is worse then the last - the water doesn't seem like it's going to stop.

That just makes it more frustrating for those of us who want to help and can't, for whatever the reason,
be it ability or logistics.

I have a garage full of gear that would be far more useful there then here...
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,994

« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2017, 05:04:53 PM »

I love all the people not in Texas who assume that there is no response because they haven't heard about it. Classic.

I don't think anyone is insinuating that - obviously TXWG, SER and SWR will be heavily involved, if for no
other reason then they are standing in the water.

The OP did, just look at the title of the thread; so have others.

Hopefully the brain wizards that descend on San Antonio will dedicate some time to discuss what we can do as an organization to be more of a resource in our country's time of need.
...

Every agency listed has responded to Harvey. None apparently needed our help so far.

As a former Wing DR guy, it breaks my heart to see something like Harvey happen (as we speak), and hear NOTHING about mobilizing the thousands of CAP members out there that want to help.

That certainly sounds to me like someone who is an armchair quarterback or an internet IC.

It's the "dragging people across the country" non-plans that were the start of this.

That's certainly not what the OP stated. But I can tell you as a matter of fact that TXWG, particularly the wingCC, DO, and DOS work closely with the state EOC in Austin as well as the county judges of the major counties. Plans are in place for us to be activated as needed; that need typically occurs AFTER the disaster is over. I can also say for a fact that we have been preparing for the possibility of a hurricane for at least a couple of weeks by getting people in place to move critical assets out of the path of the storm; although it was considered a small chance until late last week.

If TXWG can sustain their own ops, good on 'ye - that wasn't the case for other recent similar incidents in other parts of the country, nor is it consistent across the organization.

We can, but only for so long. Not every wing has 3000+ members, so I can see how other wings can quickly become overwhelmed. Right now, the groups in and around the affected area are on alert, and the remaining groups are ready to support them as needed. We're just waiting on the word from above to get to work. I'm sure if we become overwhelmed, the call will go out within the region and elsewhere for qualified personnel.
Logged

If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
NC Hokie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 880
Unit: MER-NC-057

« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2017, 06:17:28 PM »

As a former Wing DR guy, it breaks my heart to see something like Harvey happen (as we speak), and hear NOTHING about mobilizing the thousands of CAP members out there that want to help.

That certainly sounds to me like someone who is an armchair quarterback or an internet IC.

I know LTC Don and have to say that your read on this is 100% wrong.  I don't see any criticism of TXWG or SWR in this comment.  I see a long time member that has "been there, done that, and has the t-shirt to prove it" commenting on CAP's inability to leverage its NATIONAL resources to respond to an obvious need.  Baptist Men, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, and others are driving to Texas from across the United States right now to be on hand to do their thing as soon as it is safe to do so.  Contrast this to CAP, which historically waits until local resources are exhausted to request assistance from the rest of the organization.

I'm sure if we become overwhelmed, the call will go out within the region and elsewhere for qualified personnel.

That's the problem right there!  You WILL get overwhelmed and CAP should already be working to get the second (and third) wave of volunteers ready to relieve your people.  That, as usual, doesn't appear to be happening.
Logged
William Hess, Maj, CAP
Tar River Actual
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,613
Unit: of issue

« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2017, 06:33:10 PM »

I'll say this, every photo I see is worse then the last - the water doesn't seem like it's going to stop.

That just makes it more frustrating for those of us who want to help and can't, for whatever the reason,
be it ability or logistics.

I have a garage full of gear that would be far more useful there then here...


Got a boat?

If not, then no.

Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2017, 07:47:52 PM »

Comparing apples and oranges.

Show me responses from all-volunteer agencies.

DO NOT post the New York FDNY or Task Force responders.

All NYC emergency agencies like FDNY are a 24-7-12 operation. New York City also has an overseeing management operation that again runs 24-7-12 basis!

It is easier to plan and designate when you are on duty at 4:00 AM, or have a team on duty all day and night!

Once CAP runs a 24-7-12 operation, it will be valid comparisons.

Same with the Red Cross. Not all their responders are volunteers. SOME are PAID, and they have crews 24-7-12.

 ???

The Coast Guard Auxiliary has already sent a huge number of people to Texas from all over the United States. The Coast Guard Auxiliary can permit members from all over the nation rush to Texas, but not CAP? CAP is the Air Force auxiliary, so the set up is similar to the Coast Guard's.

The Air Force is already helping in Texas. The Coast Guard is flying in CG auxiliarists in Coast Guard aircraft.

The Air Force is paid.
Logged
Nick
Seasoned Member

Posts: 468
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2017, 08:33:57 PM »

The point here is that there is nothing for CAP to do right now. It’s IFR to MVFR across the entire affected area, so no air ops. The airports in the affected area are closed, no transport missions. The roads in are flooded, no ground ops. The only thing to do is plan for the response once conditions warrant, which is happening internally and in conjunction with state and Federal partners. And the plan changes daily, because the forecast for Harvey changes daily.

We already know we will exhaust our resources. Coordination among the SWR wings has already happened.

Stand by for further.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
beachdoc
Recruit

Posts: 10
Unit: MER-NC-022

« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2017, 08:52:12 PM »

As an experienced disaster responder I feel the need to offer a couple of thoughts.  I was a member and deputy commander of the NC-1 DMAT for 14 years and participated in many deployments over those years.  Our deployments ran 15 days.  How many of us can just up and leave work and family on little or no notice for such a period?

Prior to deploying to a hurricane or other event, members must be trained to a professional level and certified through job performance on training exercises.  Just as no IC wants Fred and Joe to show up in their Bugsmasher 400, nor for that matter, a crew of not mission trained CAP personnel, there is no place for walk on's without a logistical tail to support them with food, water, and equipment in a situation like Harvey.

I was not a member of CAP during our Hurricane Matthew response, but in listening to members who participated, crews were flying 9 hours daily doing pre-landfall  route surveys of the evacuation routes in the coastal areas.  Following the storm, they flew endless photo-recon missions and took tens of thousands of photographs for FEMA.  There were also many courier and transport flights for officials.

The niche for the WING resources was local support.  You can help your neighbors as North and South Carolina did, but out of wing operations are difficult.

I would encourage anyone who wants to participate in large scale disaster relief operations to seek out an organization that DOES that type of thing.  Think Red Cross, Salvation Army, Baptist Men, Samaritan's Purse, FEMA teams such as your state's Disaster Medical Assistance Team, Urban Search and Rescue Team, Veterinary Medical Assistance Team, or Disaster Mortuary Team.  Locally, participate in your community's CERT team.

The time to look forward to participating in the NEXT disaster is NOW, not when it happens.

I feel your pain, I would like to be there too.  But our organization presently does NOT have an established large scale mission.  I applaud the selfless sacrifice and dedication of those that are there.

Regarding the CG Auxiliary, they are firmly integrated with the active component.  They stand watches on shore facilities, have the option of participating offshore on underway vessels, and the Aux Air component ferries active duty people around on official business regularly.  The CG Auxiliary is a NATIONAL program, not defined by states. (spoken as a former AuxAir Aircraft Commander).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 08:57:24 PM by beachdoc » Logged
Major Jeffery S Anderson, M.D., CAP
MAJ, MC, FS, USAR (ret)
Squadron Safety Officer/Medical Officer
MER-NC-022
North Carolina Wing
ASMEL Instrument Airplane
Former FAA Senior AME
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 668
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2017, 09:13:29 PM »

24 planes times 400 = 9600.


Which is about 1200 gallons of bottled water.

Not exactly the Berlin Airlift.

And it gets worse.

Disaster supplies are gathered at collection points and packed onto pallets. Now comes 24 CAP pilots, each saying "Give me 400 pounds of something to fly into the disaster area." Somebody has to break the stuff down, perhaps having to open crates or cartons. Then, when each pilot has his 400 pounds, they ask, in unison..."Can somebody give us a ride to East Swinebladder Municipal?"

Assuming that happens, AND if WX allows, they fly to the disaster area. Or, near it. Maybe 50 miles away, because closer airports are closed or recovering. They then announce "Hey! I've got 400 pounds of SUPPLIES here! Where should I put them?" (There may be some immediate answers that would be physically impossible). Now what? If they all brought water, then that will be an additional 5000 or so bottles on top of the tens of thousands on tens of thousands already there. If each plane carried 400 pounds of something different, then somebodyvwill have to open it, sort it, catalogue it, distribute it. Meaning that eventually a few cases of diapers, bandages and beans show up somewhere, probably long after Salvation Army, Red Cross, National Guard, FEMA and the Hong Kong Police Motor Scooter Underwater K9 Unit are all set up.

Nah, a CAP micro-airlift isn't the solution to much.
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 277
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2017, 11:05:09 PM »

I was not a member of CAP during our Hurricane Matthew response, but in listening to members who participated, crews were flying 9 hours daily doing pre-landfall  route surveys of the evacuation routes in the coastal areas.  Following the storm, they flew endless photo-recon missions and took tens of thousands of photographs for FEMA.  There were also many courier and transport flights for officials.

Yes, there were plenty of those to do after the storm passed.  I flew many many hours doing AP missions tracking the flooding, and then flew officials around to meetings here and there afterwards.  Harvey will be no different.  Those who are griping about how they haven't been called up for duty from halfway across the country clearly haven't done this before.  Just be patient.  If you're not being called up to go, frankly, it's because you're not needed yet.

As been already discussed, supply hauling in a handful of 182s is not the most efficient use of our resources.  Aerial photography in damage assessment sorties is going to be our niche.
Logged
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: CAP's Non-Response to Harvey
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.182 seconds with 20 queries.