Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 21, 2017, 04:29:09 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Airborne Photography and Scanner Requirements
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Airborne Photography and Scanner Requirements  (Read 739 times)
deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: LA-076

« on: August 11, 2017, 11:30:28 AM »

Every Ops Plan I have ever read says that one of the air crew members should be a "QUALIFIED AIRBORNE PHTOGRAPHER"  if the mission requires taking photographs.  However, there is no regulation requiring this to be signed off as a Scanner.  Would it not make sense to make this a requirement before you could be signed off as a scanner?  We have 28 people in our Senior Squadron and most are signed off as qualified scanners, including myself, but only 3 are qualified Airborne Photographers.  Thoughts?

MG
Logged
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 740

« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 12:55:37 PM »

Every Ops Plan I have ever read says that one of the air crew members should be a "QUALIFIED AIRBORNE PHTOGRAPHER"  if the mission requires taking photographs.  However, there is no regulation requiring this to be signed off as a Scanner.  Would it not make sense to make this a requirement before you could be signed off as a scanner?  We have 28 people in our Senior Squadron and most are signed off as qualified scanners, including myself, but only 3 are qualified Airborne Photographers.  Thoughts?

MG

Scanner is a prereq for AP, not the other way around.  Many people take MS as a precursor to being an MP/MO and have no interest in photography so requiring them to become APs first would put yet another burden on people trying to qualify for MO/MP
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,898

« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 01:15:33 PM »

There is no actual requirement to be an AP to take photos, putting one in place would potentially handcuff
the AOBD in that regard with otherwise competent Aircrew (to include MO's and MPs).

With that said, the expectation should be that available APs are used first and as the preference to
baseline scanners, and if you hand a camera to a Scanner who isn't an AP, your expectation of success needs
to be somewhat lower, and / or you need some remediation before "wheels up", if you want everything to be "ops normal".
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 02:33:25 PM »

The step by step instructions for developing photos using InfranView and Robogeo  has about 50 steps to it.  IF you are participating in a SAREX and flying scanner and have no idea how to process photos, you are going to pull out that check list and take a very long time in order to get those photos processed given that the pictures are of good enough quality to process in the first place.  We have trouble getting qualified scanners to participate in SAREXs because they do not want to be embarrassed because they would struggle to get the photos done especially if you are flying a Rodeo where you are timed.  Personally, I could do it with the help of cue cards but many who are otherwise very good in the scanner position are hesitate to volunteer for missions where photos are required and that is becoming a huge part of missions for clients.  I understand their hesitancy to do so.  I am the last person who would want to add more burden and complicate the system further but this has been a problem in our squadron.  Maybe we are unique in that respect and other squadrons do not have that problem.  The obvious answer is to get all scanners trained and qualified in AP but that is not as easy as it sounds.  Thank you all for your input.

MG
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,898

« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 02:48:11 PM »

A rodeo?

IMHO photo processing should go to Planning, not be a process for the Aircrew. 

"Here's the camera (or card), have at it..."

I've seen it done both ways, and I agree if the Scanner is not PC literate, it's a slog,
but in those cases if the guys is that low-tech, it's probably 100 photos of his left eye
or the curvature of the earth anyway.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 03:44:50 PM »

Our wing has what they call a RODEO where they launch one aircraft after another with a few minutes in between and they have to fly to several different targets and photograph them and then RTB.  If an aircraft stays to long trying to find a target and the other aircraft catches up to it, the first one is ordered to RTB and is disqualified.  It is a timed event, even the photo processing and the best time wins a trophy.  Maybe it is just a local thing in our wing...
Maybe if I can find the SPINS on it I can give you additional information as I have never participated in one.  They leave out a few elements in the briefing and you have to figure it out yourself.....
MG
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,898

« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 04:42:50 PM »

Maybe it is just a local thing in our wing...
It is.  Sounds like fun, but not necessarily relevent to real world operations.

They leave out a few elements in the briefing and you have to figure it out yourself.....

Sadly, >this< is what it's like in some real-world CAP missions.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,019
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 04:55:39 PM »

A rodeo?

IMHO photo processing should go to Planning, not be a process for the Aircrew. 

"Here's the camera (or card), have at it..."

I've seen it done both ways, and I agree if the Scanner is not PC literate, it's a slog,
but in those cases if the guys is that low-tech, it's probably 100 photos of his left eye
or the curvature of the earth anyway.
At our photo missions, we have some APs flying and taking pictures, and other APs on the ground doing the "processing". They swap out through the mission, so everyone gets to fly, and also do the ground stuff.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 789

« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2017, 10:36:20 PM »


At our photo missions, we have some APs flying and taking pictures, and other APs on the ground doing the "processing". They swap out through the mission, so everyone gets to fly, and also do the ground stuff.

Yes, this ^^^

Also ... to the above comments about software, we haven't used Robogeo in a year or more (maybe some Wings still do?)

The AP Mission Task Guide  needs a few chapters deleted, and the SQTR work sheet needs work as well.

The files out of the camera get uploaded directly via the FEMA software. Soooo much easier these days. With the key factor being speed. FEMA and other clients don't want to wait for processing. Exit the plane, hand the card to someone who sticks the card into the laptop and they can be uploading jpegs in mere seconds and have it finished before the AP gets out of the bathroom after having flown.  ;D
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,605

« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2017, 11:05:19 PM »

A rodeo?

IMHO photo processing should go to Planning, not be a process for the Aircrew. 

"Here's the camera (or card), have at it..."

Planning is not trained in using the FEMA tool or an other photo processing. AP's are.
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,898

« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 11:35:33 PM »

A rodeo?

IMHO photo processing should go to Planning, not be a process for the Aircrew. 

"Here's the camera (or card), have at it..."

Planning is not trained in using the FEMA tool or an other photo processing. AP's are.

Easily corrected and not consistent - plenty of PSCs know how / have used that system.

We're not talking about best-practice, we're talking about "required", and given the choice
between an aircrew poking at it with a stick or a someone in planning (likely surrounded by others who know
what to do), the better choice is Planning (or Air Branch).  The crews' time is better spent flying.

Also, rarely is there much of a clock on photos of a flood or tornado damage, etc. - real-word
"tomorrow is fine".
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 11:39:03 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,605

« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2017, 12:28:45 AM »

A rodeo?

IMHO photo processing should go to Planning, not be a process for the Aircrew. 

"Here's the camera (or card), have at it..."

Planning is not trained in using the FEMA tool or an other photo processing. AP's are.

Easily corrected and not consistent - plenty of PSCs know how / have used that system.

We're not talking about best-practice, we're talking about "required", and given the choice
between an aircrew poking at it with a stick or a someone in planning (likely surrounded by others who know
what to do), the better choice is Planning (or Air Branch).  The crews' time is better spent flying.

Also, rarely is there much of a clock on photos of a flood or tornado damage, etc. - real-word
"tomorrow is fine".

I could go for Air Branch or Ops in general, but how is the planning section supposed to focus on what we're doing next if it's mopping up what we've already done?
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,898

« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2017, 12:45:11 AM »

I could go for Air Branch or Ops in general, but how is the planning section supposed to focus on what we're doing next if it's mopping up what we've already done?

Planning is supposed to be responsible for processing intel and sortie results to help decide when the
mission has been accomplished, and / or more sorties are needed.

It also helps to have more then one person, and is even better if that person has only one job!
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,605

« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2017, 01:10:49 AM »

I could go for Air Branch or Ops in general, but how is the planning section supposed to focus on what we're doing next if it's mopping up what we've already done?

Planning is supposed to be responsible for processing intel and sortie results to help decide when the
mission has been accomplished, and / or more sorties are needed.

It also helps to have more then one person, and is even better if that person has only one job!

Fair enough.
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,019
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2017, 04:05:44 AM »

A rodeo?

IMHO photo processing should go to Planning, not be a process for the Aircrew. 

"Here's the camera (or card), have at it..."

Planning is not trained in using the FEMA tool or an other photo processing. AP's are.

Easily corrected and not consistent - plenty of PSCs know how / have used that system.

We're not talking about best-practice, we're talking about "required", and given the choice
between an aircrew poking at it with a stick or a someone in planning (likely surrounded by others who know
what to do), the better choice is Planning (or Air Branch).  The crews' time is better spent flying.

Also, rarely is there much of a clock on photos of a flood or tornado damage, etc. - real-word
"tomorrow is fine".

We generally have X planes, and 2X crews available, so the folks who aren't flying do base staff stuff. The best thing for APs to do is handle the photo work. That's what they are trained to do. What would you have them do?
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,898

« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2017, 04:34:09 AM »

We generally have X planes, and 2X crews available, so the folks who aren't flying do base staff stuff. The best thing for APs to do is handle the photo work. That's what they are trained to do. What would you have them do?

More crews then planes must be nice...
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Pages: [1] Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Airborne Photography and Scanner Requirements
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.458 seconds with 20 queries.