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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Terminology when reporting in
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deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 40
Unit: LA-076

« on: August 07, 2017, 08:37:18 PM »

Just have a question for flight crew members.  When calling in when the aircraft leaves the ground and landing, do you say on the radio Wheels up and wheels down or Actual Time of Departure and Actual Time of Arrival? 

Thank you
MG
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2017, 08:59:13 PM »

Wheels up and down.

ATD, etc., is used on the forms, not the radios.
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deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 40
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 11:17:41 PM »

Thank you Eclipse.  One last question, is there a directive such as 60-1 or 100-1 or 100-3 where this is so stated or is this just tradition?

Thank you
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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 11:34:42 PM »

Thank you Eclipse.  One last question, is there a directive such as 60-1 or 100-1 or 100-3 where this is so stated or is this just tradition?

Not that I'm aware of, just tradition / normal practice. It's also used with ground teams more as slang for "moving"
or on the road (vs. briefing, etc.).
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 970
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 12:01:49 AM »

Path:

https://www.capmembers.com/index.cfm
https://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/
http://nesa.cap.gov/
http://nesa.cap.gov/download-curriculum-materials/

to the MAS Inflight Guide/Procedures:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/52f294c6e4b0bede38b4d35c/t/596a7d4c9f74563f1ffd9c7c/1500151133227/IFG+04+APR+2011.pdf

Quote:
"1H. Takeoff, Climb and Departure
5) Begin Observer Log with takeoff (time and Hobbs) and report "Wheels Up"

1J. J Approach, Descent and Landing
11) Log (time and Hobbs) and report "Wheels Down""

R/s
Spam

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deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 40
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 10:40:05 AM »

Thank you both for the replies.
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coudano
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Posts: 1,116

« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 09:25:23 PM »

now let's talk about how often and how many times in a single flight you should say "ops normal"  :clap:  >:D
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etodd
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Posts: 865

« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 11:59:59 PM »

now let's talk about how often and how many times in a single flight you should say "ops normal"  :clap:  >:D

Not very often. Even on a SAREX its hard to get some folks to reply at times. Especially when they let Cadets run base. I'll give a wheels up, and return to base call. But these on the hour and half hour status reports get missed often. I'll try calling twice, if no answer, go back to what I was doing, try again 30 minutes later. Have never had base to call wondering whats up?  Maybe I just always call at pizza time. LOL
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Spam
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 01:13:59 AM »

Tell me about it. My favorite is when eight aircraft all try to call in the same 5 minute block, ensuring that all eight aircrew are tied up for a total of 120 man-minutes of work stoppage/waste as they step on each others transmissions.


For reference, hourly updates are indeed part of the published procedures: see Section 8c3 Hourly Updates.


When I was an MC/IC, I had all aircraft/ground teams plan to listen and respond when prompted ONCE only, to a scheduled roll call. Top of the hour for aircraft up, bottom of the hour for ground teams (Air = up top, Ground = down). Takes no more than 5 to check everyone, if done right.  "Attention all stations this is exercise base, all aircrew stand by to check in as called, beginning with Raptor One, Raptor one how copy over" "Raptor One, ops normal, fuel 1.5, over" "Roger Raptor One, proceeding Raptor Nine, how copy, over" "Raptor nine, normal, RTB in ten over with 1.2" "Copy RTB in ten, proceeding Raptor Fourteen..."  and then you're done, bam - two to three minutes if done right. Repeat in thirty minutes for deployed GTs. Everyone knows to plan their sortie to be ready to pause to check in on time, everyone is up on schedule for any announcement, done.

Its not as hard as many Wings seem to make it. Many times we just fail to model how to do it right at the outset, and leave it to our most inexperienced members to muddle through. Once you set the example and tempo early, I've found that people pick up the right rhythm and cadence quickly.


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SarDragon
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2017, 04:30:15 PM »

Around here we do 30 min updates, with two different schemes - top and bottom of the hour, or wheels up +30 and +60. Occasionally, we have a relay involved due to terrain issues on a particular grid.
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Dave Bowles
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Eclipse
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2017, 08:29:21 PM »

now let's talk about how often and how many times in a single flight you should say "ops normal"  :clap:  >:D

Not very often. Even on a SAREX its hard to get some folks to reply at times. Especially when they let Cadets run base. I'll give a wheels up, and return to base call. But these on the hour and half hour status reports get missed often. I'll try calling twice, if no answer, go back to what I was doing, try again 30 minutes later. Have never had base to call wondering whats up?  Maybe I just always call at pizza time. LOL

??

Every SAREx I've been involved with in the last 10 years has had top and bottom of the hour roll calls, with
major attention if you miss one, and potentially being declared lost if you miss two, with the focus of the activity
becoming locating the "missing" aircrew.

This is also something that CAP-USAF pays significant attention to because it calls back to member accountability and safety.

And missed rolls calls are supposed to be discussed in debriefing, because that was a failure of something or someone
or the comm plan.
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
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Posts: 865

« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2017, 09:47:49 PM »


Every SAREx I've been involved with in the last 10 years has had top and bottom of the hour roll calls, ...

Roll call sounds like a good method. Remember I've only been around two years now, but in the 4 (or 5?) SAREXs I've done so far, we never used a 'roll call' system. We would simply try to call in top and bottom, if anyone answered.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 10:01:41 PM »

So potentially no one has any idea where the aircraft / crew is during extended periods?

And it's never been raised this is an issue?
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

coudano
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Posts: 1,116

« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 10:37:27 PM »

So potentially no one has any idea where the aircraft / crew is during extended periods?

And it's never been raised this is an issue?

CAP has been assigning search crews to search areas that were outside of comm range since there has been such a thing as CAP, and it's only been a ZOMG five alarm emergency if someone missed a half hour check-in in the last handfull of years.

There is (ought to be) a difference between "comm out" (we haven't heard from them in a while) and "overdue" (start a search).  I've seen (on separate occasions) both horrible mission planning as well as malfunctioning base comm equipment cause knee jerk reactions, and lost-aircrew procedures (suspending ops, launching search sorties) when base lost comms with sorties that were operating just fine, and were not overdue on their flight plan.  That's some remedial clownstuff right there.  Yes, I grant that procedure is written right there in black and white (in a task guide, not a reg), but that doesn't mean the thing written there isn't silly, and it also doesn't mean that common sense, good judgment, and ORM shouldn't be applied to it.

IMnsHO twice an hour is too much anyway.  It's like you're just generating radio traffic for the sake of generating it.  Not CAP... NO!!!

That said, the word "ops normal" grates on me.  I'm sure someone just took it and started using it, or most likely carried it in (and applied it incorrectly) from somewhere else (that NEVER happens in CAP).  Ops normal has specific criteria in other contexts, and drives decision trees, and is typically only passed once, after take off, once all systems are checked out and green.

Now considering a CAP sortie,
Are the ops ever anything other than normal?  If so, then what would they be?
And if they aren't normal, would you really wait for the half hour check in to report such?
And if you fail the half hour check in BECAUSE your ops aren't normal, is it really necessary to say that they ARE normal when they are?

I suppose it's something to say during a check in, other than "checking in".
Then again, if you are in mission comms with a crew anyway, and you talked to them every 7 minutes for the past 28 minutes...  Do you REALLY need them to check in on that 30th minute, in order to just accomplish a check-in?  And say "ops normal" (or "scooby dooby doo" or whatever cockamamie thing you decide to have them say)  That's pretty silly, too.


Personal preference would be, to upon request, ask "check in, report status"
So the reply would be something like "inbound" or "on station" or "rtb, eta 1700z"
And that wouldn't be necessary if those things were called in, anyway at the time that they happened.

"Hey where's cap 123?"
"They are on station in grid 386A"
"How do you know?"
"Because they called on station 35 minutes ago" (and they had planned 1 hour in the grid)
"...and I just heard them talking to ground team 909 within the last 10 minutes"


Do you really need to make an extra call them up to verify that their status hasn't changed?


Sorry for the quasi thread-jack :)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:45:05 PM by coudano » Logged
arajca
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Posts: 4,169

« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2017, 02:35:22 PM »

What I have seen if an aircraft or ground team will out of radio range for an extended period is they will notify base of this fact along with when they expect to be back in range.
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deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 40
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2017, 11:42:56 AM »

Wheels up and down.

ATD, etc., is used on the forms, not the radios.

This was my understanding also Eclipse, but recently our Wing Commander and two other Wing staff members attended a Region exercise and were told that they will report ATD and ATA rather than Wheels Up and Wheels down and this got passed down from wing to the Squadron level as this was the new normal.  Of course this started all kinds of push back and debate.  Also I have noticed on the SPINS there is reporting terminology written in that even I as a Communication officer have never seen or used in the past.  I just wish to Sam Hill somebody would standardize this protocol.
Thank you for you response and input Eclipse.
MG
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SarDragon
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Posts: 10,085
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2017, 04:01:16 AM »

What's a SPINS?
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2017, 08:35:17 PM »

From today:

Mission Observer:  "Mission Base this is CAP XXX, we have completed site one, headed to site 2, and its bottom of the hour, Ops Normal."

Mission Base:  "Copy"

Ummmm. Copy what? LOL  This is what we heard all afternoon.  :o
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MS - MO - AP - MP
Spam
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2017, 01:26:15 AM »

What's a SPINS?

Special instructions. (airspace, or air tasking order specific).

SPINS are the means of promulgating basic airspace control methods (see JP 3-52).

99 percent of CAP folks have never heard of it, let alone used it, so don't feel alone. Its Good Stuff, though, and directly applicable to CAP ops.


V/r
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 970
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2017, 01:29:38 AM »

Here you go Sir:

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/new_pubs/jp3_52.pdf

That was easier to find than I'd thought! Last time I needed a copy before an evolution it was only to be found on other systems...

V/r
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Terminology when reporting in
 


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