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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Drone Pilot Badge - Everybody an ORIGINAL CAP Pilot?
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Author Topic: Drone Pilot Badge - Everybody an ORIGINAL CAP Pilot?  (Read 1957 times)
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« on: July 26, 2017, 07:37:39 PM »

The way things are going with drones, every CAP member can easily become a CAP pilot and wear pilot wings. If there is a CAP drone pilot wings or plans for them, I cannot find it. The army started handing out drone wings 10 years ago. Is there any plans for this?

The reason for the ORIGINAL CAP pilot in the title is the original CAP pilots would patrol where the enemy was. In the words of the military, "patrols ended in 1945." Patrols where the enemy is for CAP might begin again with drones. Astronomy uses large numbers of amateur astronomers because of the large amount of space that needs to be looked at, astronomers cannot see it all. With cheap drones, a CAP member in the USA can fly a drone anywhere and look for the enemy. The advantage for the military is that the more drones flying around, the more enemy will be spotted. Just like the old CAP.

Check out the video of ISIS using drones for warfare. The US Air Force is having problems with these because there are so many, they are overwhelmed. ISIS says that their Air Force will soon be attacking in New York. Shouldn't CAP begin preparing to locate and destroy these things? If CAP attacked submarines in the past, why can't CAP members destroy ISIS drones in the Middle East and Iowa?

Down the road there will be ultra-miniature drones that will be bio-degradable because so many will be lost. A 1/2 inch drone with a 30 mile range will be available sooner than people think. Cost will be less than $100.

Most missions soon will be done by drones, not airplanes. The advantage is instead of CAP sending out 1 airplane, 3 dozen members can send out 3 dozen drones. Why would a big airplane deliver medicine to the wilderness when a drone can do it?

There is a FAA rule limiting controlling drones out of sight, but at some point this rule will be loosened.

CAP Member = CAP Pilot basically.

If there is no drone pilot wings now, why? Any particular reason?

Quote
The actual wings are similar to those on the standard Air Force Pilot badge to signify that, while remotely piloted, UAVs are still planes in the air, subject to the same laws of physics and principles of flight as piloted aircraft. But the shield is wholly unique. Its shape mirrors that of the traditional design, but the insignia within is specific to the remotely-piloted aircraft mission. http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2010-03/new-era-military-aviation-gets-new-set-wings
Quote
To be qualified as a CAP pilot and wear CAP pilot wings, a member must meet the requirements, including CAPF 5 flight checks, outlined in  CAPR 60-1 CAP Flight Management 3 May 2014 (Includes Change 1, 19 Dec 2014).

Quote
New Policy Makes Soldier UAV Operators Eligible for Aviation Badge
 May 7, 2007

U.S. Army Intelligence Center Soldiers in the new qualifying career fields and military occupational specialties of 96U and 35K, enlisted and warrant officer Unmanned Aerial Vehicle operator, received aviation badges April 26 in a pinning ceremony here.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:48:43 PM by zippy » Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 789

« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 07:44:05 PM »


Most missions soon will be done by drones, not airplanes. The advantage is instead of CAP sending out 1 airplane, 3 dozen members can send out 3 dozen drones.


What Squadron are you in, that would have 36 pilots ready to jump at a minute's notice, grab 36 drones and be on the road?  Sometimes we are doing good to quickly mobilize 3 folks for one plane. LOL
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MS - MO - AP - MP
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 07:52:40 PM »

that would have 36 pilots ready to jump at a minute's notice, grab 36 drones and be on the road?  Sometimes we are doing good to quickly mobilize 3 folks for one plane. LOL

Soon, operators can be anywhere in the country. The way it can work is a text alert will go out in a whole state and the 36 drones can be controlled from many CAP locations throughout a state, or even nation. Or home.

Think a few years from now, not the 20th century.

Drones will be disposable in the not-so-near future. And so small, not even a hazard to airplanes. The rules regarding having to see the drone will be loosened, probably with a harder to get license.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:58:36 PM by zippy » Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,835

« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 08:46:34 PM »

Don't feed the troll...
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,017
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 09:15:13 PM »

that would have 36 pilots ready to jump at a minute's notice, grab 36 drones and be on the road?  Sometimes we are doing good to quickly mobilize 3 folks for one plane. LOL

Soon, operators can be anywhere in the country. The way it can work is a text alert will go out in a whole state and the 36 drones can be controlled from many CAP locations throughout a state, or even nation. Or home.

Think a few years from now, not the 20th century.

Drones will be disposable in the not-so-near future. And so small, not even a hazard to airplanes. The rules regarding having to see the drone will be loosened, probably with a harder to get license.

I direct your attention to Title 36 U.S. Code Chapter 403, which is CAP's basic charter. Title 10 U.S. Code Chapter 909 is also relevant. Both emphasize the civilian nature of CAP, and neither mention combat operations in any way.

Public Laws 79-476 and 80-557 also apply.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 09:32:20 PM »

that would have 36 pilots ready to jump at a minute's notice, grab 36 drones and be on the road?  Sometimes we are doing good to quickly mobilize 3 folks for one plane. LOL

Soon, operators can be anywhere in the country. The way it can work is a text alert will go out in a whole state and the 36 drones can be controlled from many CAP locations throughout a state, or even nation. Or home.

Think a few years from now, not the 20th century.

Drones will be disposable in the not-so-near future. And so small, not even a hazard to airplanes. The rules regarding having to see the drone will be loosened, probably with a harder to get license.

I direct your attention to Title 36 U.S. Code Chapter 403, which is CAP's basic charter. Title 10 U.S. Code Chapter 909 is also relevant. Both emphasize the civilian nature of CAP, and neither mention combat operations in any way.

Public Laws 79-476 and 80-557 also apply.


So the law should be changed. They changed it in 1945, lets lobby to change it back.

John McCain and others want CAP transferred to the Department of Transportation because CAP uses military dollars. McCain said that military dollars should not be used for civilian purposes. So lets give McCain a military purpose for CAP.
 
The world changed, with telepresence civilians can help in combat zones with no risk. Lets start preparing for 10 years from now.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,017
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2017, 09:41:17 PM »

Not gonna happen. This is not 1945.

Getting Congress to agree on something like this is currently next to impossible. They have more important things to worry about right now.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,509

« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2017, 09:45:29 PM »

Hey, I do not think that CAP would have happened in 1945. US was a power then. For something like he is advocating we would have to be like we were in 1941. Which I do not see happening in the near future or ten years from now...
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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2017, 10:00:48 PM »

Take it elsewhere people care.

Or better yet, join and try to help instead of calling out things you half understand from the bench.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2017, 11:01:13 PM »

The British RAF is doing the "drone" thing too...for duly commissioned officers who trained at Creech AFB.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303233/RAF-pilots-earn-wings-flying-unmanned-drones-Taliban--desks.html

I do not see it happening for CAP any more than I see it happening for the USCGAux AuxAir.
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 668
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 12:42:51 AM »

Zippy:

Are you a member of CAP? If so, you should be taking up your ideas with your local unit. If not, feel free to join. Or, if that isn't your style, feel free to write some "alternate history" novels featuring the CAP of your dreams. Whatever route you choose, your posts here long ago went past being inquiries and are firmly emplaced in the arena of pot stirring.
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 01:47:16 AM »

I direct your attention to Title 36 U.S. Code Chapter 403, which is CAP's basic charter. Title 10 U.S. Code Chapter 909 is also relevant. Both emphasize the civilian nature of CAP, and neither mention combat operations in any way.

Public Laws 79-476 and 80-557 also apply.


CAP is already teaching cyber warfare. See Below. Cyber warfare is warfare, but the military lists these jobs as non-combat. Military installations in combat zones have cams on the perimeter and for miles around. I read the statute, if the Air Force considers someone controlling zoomable/moveable cams in a war zone while sitting in a location in the USA as a non-combat job, then it likely allowable is within the statute.

The statute says to assist in "noncombat programs and missions." Most airmen in combat zones are in non-combat roles as mechanics, fuel handlers, food service, etc. Controlling a cam, either fixed or drone, would be
 likely considered non-combat, as nursing is. Especially if the cam is controlled from inside the US,

CAP has computers online. I can picture some foreign hostile trying to hack in to a CAP computer, and so does the CAP organization.

"Unit Web Security Administrator" is part of the Information Technology Officer Specialty Track. So, CAP leadership obviously wants members to defend against cyber attacks. If it is a hostile, then it is cyber warfare.

From a CAP training manual:
Quote
Cyber Warfare

Several western books define cyberwarfare as actions by a nation-state to penetrate another nation's
computers or networks for the purposes of causing damage or disruption. However, the Shanghai
Cooperation Organisation extends the definition of cyberwar to include dissemination of information
"harmful to the spiritual, moral and cultural spheres of other states". This difference of opinion likely
prevents western governments from signing certain global cyber arms control agreements.
Cyber Warfare consists of many different possible threats and countermeasures. Cyber
Espionage and Cyber Sabotage are two fundamental classifications of attack, into which other
threats may fall.  https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAP_AECyberModule_9D4693A49944D.pdf 
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Paul Creed III
Forum Regular

Posts: 187
Unit: GLR-OH-254

« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2017, 08:25:48 AM »

I direct your attention to Title 36 U.S. Code Chapter 403, which is CAP's basic charter. Title 10 U.S. Code Chapter 909 is also relevant. Both emphasize the civilian nature of CAP, and neither mention combat operations in any way.

Public Laws 79-476 and 80-557 also apply.


CAP is already teaching cyber warfare. See Below. Cyber warfare is warfare, but the military lists these jobs as non-combat. Military installations in combat zones have cams on the perimeter and for miles around. I read the statute, if the Air Force considers someone controlling zoomable/moveable cams in a war zone while sitting in a location in the USA as a non-combat job, then it likely allowable is within the statute.

The statute says to assist in "noncombat programs and missions." Most airmen in combat zones are in non-combat roles as mechanics, fuel handlers, food service, etc. Controlling a cam, either fixed or drone, would be
 likely considered non-combat, as nursing is. Especially if the cam is controlled from inside the US,

CAP has computers online. I can picture some foreign hostile trying to hack in to a CAP computer, and so does the CAP organization.

"Unit Web Security Administrator" is part of the Information Technology Officer Specialty Track. So, CAP leadership obviously wants members to defend against cyber attacks. If it is a hostile, then it is cyber warfare.

From a CAP training manual:
Quote
Cyber Warfare

Several western books define cyberwarfare as actions by a nation-state to penetrate another nation's
computers or networks for the purposes of causing damage or disruption. However, the Shanghai
Cooperation Organisation extends the definition of cyberwar to include dissemination of information
"harmful to the spiritual, moral and cultural spheres of other states". This difference of opinion likely
prevents western governments from signing certain global cyber arms control agreements.
Cyber Warfare consists of many different possible threats and countermeasures. Cyber
Espionage and Cyber Sabotage are two fundamental classifications of attack, into which other
threats may fall.  https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAP_AECyberModule_9D4693A49944D.pdf 

CAP does NOT teach offensive cyber actions, only defensive.
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Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Great Lakes Region Cyber Programs Officer
Ohio Wing Group 3 Commander
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,613
Unit: of issue

« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2017, 08:49:28 AM »

And as an IT guy, I'd definitely not characterize what CyberPatriot is teaching as "cyberwarfare" anything.

Its mostly a set of skills for the modern age. Yes, system hardening is a defensive measure, but it is not specific to "cyberwarfare" any moreso than teaching a cadet how to drive a backhoe is teaching "trench warfare." 

The CyberPatriot technologies and methods are used day in and day out in companies all over the world to maintain the business and prevent data loss.  You're protecting from everything from an errant employee accidentally deleting the entire company public share to Tommy The Plumber clicking on a virus laden email and Cryptolocking the whole company.  Sure, this might be a helpful skill if you're eventually working for the American Voting Machine & Tabulating Company, Inc because who knows might be knocking at your (virtual) door, but you're also not learning how to conduct DDOS attacks on the FSB's public webserver...

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
N Harmon
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 776
Unit: GLR-MI-063

Monroe Composite Squadron
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2017, 09:17:41 AM »

Whatever route you choose, your posts here long ago went past being inquiries and are firmly emplaced in the arena of pot stirring.

Agreed.
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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2017, 10:40:01 AM »

And as an IT guy, I'd definitely not characterize what CyberPatriot is teaching as "cyberwarfare" anything.

Please read the below quotes. I am not making this up. See the words "cyber warfare."
The below quote actually says students are learning about cyber warfare at cyberpatriot.
Cyber Warfare defense is basically the same as a bank defending its system, just a fancy phrase.


Quote
NJROTC cadets compete in all-service cyber warfare competition
April 6, 2011 at 1:28pm
National Harbor, Md. (April 1, 2011) - Six Ramona High School (Calif.) Navy Junior Reserve Officers Training Corps (NJROTC) cadets participated in the Air Force Association's (AFA) CyberPatriot III National Finals Competition here April1.
CyberPatriot is a cyber defense competition created to excite, educate and motivate the next generation of cyber defenders and other science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) graduates.
]https://www.facebook.com/notes/naval-service-training-command/njrotc-cadets-compete-in-all-service-cyber-warfare-competition/201497036548828/
[/url]

Quote
LJHS students compete in cyber warfare

 La Jolla High’s Viking Cyber Security Team participants Sahil Sangani, George Brabon and Andy Hill watch as Patrick Sapin works on securing a web server during the CyberPatriot III Open Division Round 3 competition at the school on Jan. 8. Last year, the team took first place nationally in the first year the competition was open to public schools.

“I think it’s really interesting. Cyber security and cyber warfare are very important topics in our society today,” he said. “There needs to be kids like us who are learning about it and this is a fun way to do it.”

http://www.sdnews.com/view/full_story/11002213/article-LJHS-students-compete-in-cyber-warfare?instance=update1
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dwb
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,306

« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2017, 10:48:17 AM »

News articles calling CyberPatriot "warfare" does not make it so.

Have you read up on what CyberPatriot is? I mean, forget about the news articles, have you taken the time to develop an informed opinion on this?
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,613
Unit: of issue

« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2017, 11:18:24 AM »

News articles calling CyberPatriot "warfare" does not make it so.

Have you read up on what CyberPatriot is? I mean, forget about the news articles, have you taken the time to develop an informed opinion on this?


^this.

Me thinks zippy here hasn't done anything at all with CyberPatriot ever. 

Not that I have that much involvement, either. But as a squadron commander, I have a CyberPatriot team. So I have to be able to explain to my membership & parents what it is and why people should participate. So I've had these discussions with our CP mentor and the coaches.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,811

« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 11:27:24 AM »

Hey, give me a few minutes to post something wonky on my Facebook page, then you can quote it as official policy. Don't go anywhere, I'll be right back...
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,613
Unit: of issue

« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 11:31:02 AM »

Hey, give me a few minutes to post something wonky on my Facebook page, then you can quote it as official policy. Don't go anywhere, I'll be right back...

Hurry up, willya. I have a beret I wanna wear.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Drone Pilot Badge - Everybody an ORIGINAL CAP Pilot?
 


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