Conference Credit for Level III

[Ozzy]

Hi All, how long do you have to be at a conference to get credit for it? I'm planning on driving down early to the NER Conference on Saturday and then driving back in the same day. Obviously I plan on attending several of the seminars posted but since I'm not planning on staying the night, what would be an appropriate time to cut out?

[dwb]

I don't consider a banquet to be part of a conference. I think if you attend for the day stuff and participate in seminars, that counts.

That said, if you show up at 1pm and sneak out at 2:30pm, that's not really in the spirit of the rule.

[Eclipse]

There is no hard fast rule. It's entirely at the whim of the approver of the form 24 when it is sumpbmitted, since no credit, per se is recorded otherwise.

In fact one wing CC could accept a given conference and another not, BTDT.

Spirit and intent aside, if you're on the PA or have a cert, thats all that is generally checked or provided with the 24.

[Spam]

Ozzy, really you should consider what you're wanting out of the event, as with every CAP volunteer event. If you don't care about the banquet, skip out at 4 (or whatever) after the last meaningful technical session (if there are any).  If you're paying the conference fee and are making an honest intent to expose yourself to whatever training sessions, notetaking for your unit, and conducting necessary business, then I'd say you're on track with a Saturday day-only participation.  What is the intent of your going, bottom line, measured against the intent of the Level III requirement.


Some of us only reluctantly drag ourselves to conferences because that's where the mandatory Commanders Calls are being held that quarter (or half year). This year, I'm not paying the stinkin' 70 buck conference fee for the day, just for the bland chicken lunch and a commanders call - so I may come just for two hours from 10 to noon, then pull chocks myself (but I finished Level III 25 years ago).


One caveat on crew rest, your mileage may vary: I once drove 3 hours to a Wing Conference, stayed for the day, and drove 4 hours home in snow and ice that night (mid 1990s, on my second unit command, felt I "had" to be there for Commanders Call). Not the smartest move I've ever made. Don't Be That Guy.

There's your mandatory safety content for the day. 


V/r
Spam

[Ozzy]

That's good to hear. I am planning on being there for most of the day and participating in several of the seminars, I just hope they are more then just Power point to death... The banquet I figure I'll be skipping, I'll know only a few members that are going and I don't really have a personal stake in the ceremonies.

As for my intent to going to the conference.. it's on par with what Level III wants me to get. I'm planning on attending the general assembly, several of the seminars, and bringing back information back to my squadron. I don't however, want to be spending an extra $200 or so bucks between hotel rooms and such. I do plan on attending many conferences over the next couple of years (NY in April!) and I don't need Level III completed for about two more years. My question was simply to clarify  what constitutes successful attendance to a conference since no CAP publication states what that is so that I can plan my travel arrangements appropriately.

[MSG Mac]

If I were driving from NYWG or CTWG, I would make the most of it driving through New Jersey aka the Toll capital of the world would be so expensive that you should get your money's worth. Your PD Or Personnel Officer can input the attendance through E-Services.

[LATORRECA]

I have participated in three conference. Make sure you check in at the front table, in order to get you credit for attendance. Stay for the seminars and bounce when their done. I never had issues on getting credit for them and never participated on any banquet.

Top Latorre.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PHall]

Some wings, like California Wing, publish a participant list of those who were at Wing Conference.
Makes verifying conference participation very easy.

[Eclipse]

Some wings, like California Wing, publish a participant list of those who were at Wing Conference.
Makes verifying conference participation very easy.

Something else which should be in eservices - we've had some years where PAs were issued, and others
where seemingly no tracking was done at all, forcing people to use photos., canceled checks, or affidavits
as substantiation.

And of course the issue doesn't generally come up until you're filling out the 24 and someone says "prove it".
If the unit has a good PDO, they are hounding wing for proof immediately after conferences, if not, it's ignored
until it's an issue - worse still if the member is migratory between units, echelons, or wings.

Something required for progression should not be left to the wind.

[MSG Mac]

Some wings, like California Wing, publish a participant list of those who were at Wing Conference.
Makes verifying conference participation very easy.

Something else which should be in eservices - we've had some years where PAs were issued, and others
where seemingly no tracking was done at all, forcing people to use photos., canceled checks, or affidavits
as substantiation.

And of course the issue doesn't generally come up until you're filling out the 24 and someone says "prove it".
If the unit has a good PDO, they are hounding wing for proof immediately after conferences, if not, it's ignored
until it's an issue - worse still if the member is migratory between units, echelons, or wings.

Something required for progression should not be left to the wind.

Go to E-Services, open Personnel tab, click on Membership system, You can add Conferences, Presentations to outside groups, etc. after inputting the members CAPID, it will open to his. Current training level. If a level 4 or 5 accomplishment is done, just click the training level tab to the correct level.

[Eclipse]

Go to E-Services, open Personnel tab, click on Professional Development input. You can add Conferences, Presentations to outside groups, etc. after inputting the members CAPID, it will open to his. Current training level. If a level 4 or 5 accomplishment is done, just click the training level tab to the correct level.

I don't see anything like that under Personnel.

Under Professional Development - Membership System, there's a place to enter various requirements
towards PD Levels, but without substantiation of those entries, some Wings won't accept that. This area
is just an online F24.

Conferences should be tracked like an Encampment or NCSA - someone with rights at the wing or higher
enters the credit as part of the close-of-show, the box is checked and no one had to go scrambling.

Is this what you are talking about? 

[capip1998]

Go to E-Services, open Personnel tab, click on Professional Development input. You can add Conferences, Presentations to outside groups, etc. after inputting the members CAPID, it will open to his. Current training level. If a level 4 or 5 accomplishment is done, just click the training level tab to the correct level.

I don't see anything like that under Personnel.

Under Professional Development - Membership System, there's a place to enter various requirements
towards PD Levels, but without substantiation of those entries, some Wings won't accept that. This area
is just an online F24.

Conferences should be tracked like an Encampment or NCSA - someone with rights at the wing or higher
enters the credit as part of the close-of-show, the box is checked and no one had to go scrambling.

Is this what you are talking about?

Sort of, under personnel there is a link to the membership system. In there you click on the PD Award Entry link and then can enter specific items towards a level. It most like is only open to commanders and personnel officers so that may be why you don't see it. Upon submission it is validated by the commander and that really is the only "proof" required unless someone in your COC has implemented a more specific policy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eclipse]

Sort of, under personnel there is a link to the membership system. In there you click on the PD Award Entry link and then can enter specific items towards a level. It most like is only open to commanders and personnel officers so that may be why you don't see it.

I is one, so if it's there, I see it - I know about the F24, which is what I think we're talking about, that doesn't necessarily help because of...

Upon submission it is validated by the commander and that really is the only "proof" required unless someone in your COC has implemented a more specific policy.

That's the issue - substantiation is completely arbitrary and subjective. My personal experience has been everything from "yeah, we know you were there" to "prove it"
at which point I had to pull out photos of me standing in proximity to the person who said I wasn't there.

That's why this should be an eservices training entry and not a subjective call, same goes for the other stuff in there.
The majority of my CAP membership has been as a CC or high-level staffer, all recorded properly, yet the online 24 still shows my LV as missing
a command or staff assignment, plus the "dir or staff of an educational activity" all which may or may not have to be substantiated
at the time of submission and which is a waste of precious time.

I also know that my wing is not unique in this situation.

[Eclipse]

^ I just went in and entered my dates for what was missing, and it required no substantiation or validation,
so anyone upstream would be well within their rights to question where I was a course dir, who I mentored,
and staff assignments.

This is just an online 24, it doesn't actually establish anything final like say the encampment module does on the
training tab.

[kwe1009]

^ I just went in and entered my dates for what was missing, and it required no substantiation or validation,
so anyone upstream would be well within their rights to question where I was a course dir, who I mentored,
and staff assignments.

This is just an online 24, it doesn't actually establish anything final like say the encampment module does on the
training tab.

You are absolutely right.  I have seen some people have to produce evidence of conference attendance once they are submitted for LIII.  This can really cause problems for some who took 5 or more years to complete all of the requirements and attended conferences that long ago.  I like what some have said about the Wing issuing a PA to show attendance.  That is pretty easy to do.

[Lord of the North]

CAPR 50-17 para 2-5e clearly states "Members submit applications for awards using the Professional Development Awards Module in eServices. The CAP Form 24, Application for Senior Member Professional Development Award, can be used as an alternate method if the online version is not available. Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements. A member submitting an application for an award whose achievements do not appear on their online record must be ready to produce supporting documentation upon request prior to approval of awards. NHQ/DPR returns applications not supported by the member's record entries or documentation."  (my emphasis)

As for the hosting wing or region, I have for a number of years now prepared Participation Letters (not PSs) for wing and region conference attendance as well issuing individual attendance certificates when PLs were not accomplished.

Yes, it would good if e-services captured several other validation items.  Maybe in the next 75 years.  YMMV

[Luis R. Ramos]

The point that some members are trying to make in here is who will prepare said "supporting documentation."

Along with this is that said documentation would have more weight coming from Wing / Region / NHQ than if provided by the member.

A photograph purportedly taken at a conference? How do I know it was really taken at that conference and not at a CLC?

Participation Letter prepared by the squadron? When? Before the event? If so, how can we prove the member was actually in attendance?

An after-the-fact letter provided by a member stating he saw a member who needs that proof 10 years after the fact for a reinstatement of grade, a missing award, etc at the conference?

Why can't the Region have a sign sheet for attendees to sign when they arrive, and that becomes prima facie evidence?

[Eclipse]

All of the above is why it should be another entry in eservices like an NCSA or encampment, and not
left to subjective acceptance.

For wings with poor record keeping, either currently or in the past, at some point someone will
have to make a decision, and if it's unfair or incorrect, leave themselves open to a sustainable complaint.

There's no issue with asking for substantiation, but at some point it's not worth the argument to
keep insisting someone didn't go somewhere, even if, in the extremely rare case, you think they might
be fudging the truth, not that wings don't do just that.

[EMT-83]

My favorite form of documentation for attendance at a conference was a photo of the member with the region commander, taken next to the PowerPoint slide that said "welcome to the regional conference".

[MSG Mac]

The fact that most conference registration are done through Eventbrite, and or PayPal should make attendance verification fairly easy.

[kwe1009]

The fact that most conference registration are done through Eventbrite, and or PayPal should make attendance verification fairly easy.

No, it makes seeing who signed up easy.  It doesn't prove that anyone actually attended.  For LIII, you need to show proof of attendance somehow.

[Eclipse]

The fact that most conference registration are done through Eventbrite, and or PayPal should make attendance verification fairly easy.

"Most"? Where?

[PHall]

The fact that most conference registration are done through Eventbrite, and or PayPal should make attendance verification fairly easy.

"Most"? Where?

California and Nevada Wings have been using Eventbrite for several years now.

[Eclipse]

California and Nevada Wings have been using Eventbrite for several years now.

Heh - despite the belief to the contrary, CAWG and NVWG do not constitute "most".

It's a hodge podge.

[Fubar]

Or how about dropping the conference requirement? If the conference has value, you wouldn't have to strong-arm people into attending.

[SarDragon]

IMHO, conferences do have value. They are an opportunity for the wing leadership pass on "the state of the wing", and keep members u to date on recent happenings. The breakout sessions provide knowledge in various mission associated areas. The event in general provides networking opportunities.

Note, your wing conference might not be this good. CAWG's is. YMMV.

[Alaric]

Or how about dropping the conference requirement? If the conference has value, you wouldn't have to strong-arm people into attending.

I have found great value in the conferences I have  attended.  That being said I have also been fortunate to have both the time and money to participate in those events and been able to get there.  I don't think its so much the need to strong arm as it is to make sure Wing conferences move so that people in various parts of the state have reasonable access

[Eclipse]

They are an opportunity for the wing leadership pass on "the state of the wing", and keep members u to date on recent happenings.

So Emails, Twitter, Emails, Facebook, Emails, Instagram, Emails, the myriad websites, Emails, RSS, Emails, not to mention the Coconut Wireless of the backchannel,
and Emails, are less current then a Biennial conference focused on "having a conference"?

Many of them are so bereft of content that they are scrambling for presenters Day-Of, with a further issue being the
disparate perceived needs of at least two distinct sub groups of CAP - the "20+'ers" - older members who just want to kibitz
over a rubber chicken and talk about how great things were WIWAC, and the "under 10'ers" who have never been to a conference
and / or are generally new and think they will get some imense value for their $50-200+ investment.

Between those are the workhorse members who just roll their eyes and tolerate it because they need it for progression,
or are honestly trying to bring something new to the table when they know that the odds are that a less-then-current
member is going to lecture them about the expectations of the regs 2-revs back

Unless it literally occurred that day, there's no way anything at any conference is going to be more current then the Gnashosphere^®,
and if you're really getting "current news" from a conference, you are probably not active enough to actually need that information.

CAP Conferences, like their IRL counterpart the tradeshow and business meeting, are a dying, cast-off of an era when the Comm nets
were the most immediate way to get information, and I say this after having significant visible participation recently in the first conference I have
attended in a decade that was actually worth my time, and was pretty much universally lauded, because like just about everything else in CAP
the success was based on the efforts of the personalities involved, in some cases working against status quo, and these people
don't scale, and we all know that the next one will likely be another "So You've Decided To Have a Conference" exercise in
inventing another wheel.

"Gnashosphere^®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

[THRAWN]

Conferences are a good time to do some actual PD/ES/CP/Communications training. Unfortunately, many of them are not doing any of that. Members are regularly looking for value added to their requirements. Give it to them. If conference attendance is a mandatory requirement, make it worthwhile.

[Eclipse]

This is another area which should be looked at in regards to retention instead of just trying to
mine the membership of other organizations to build the numbers of people who will never show up to a meeting.

The hard-cost of progression, and the detrimental effects of initiative on some of our most effective, and therefore
most important members.

I know of several high involvement, critical members who are essentially "stuck" at their current grade because
of the inability to complete some required and expensive PD, whether that's a conference, Staff College, etc.

Not everyone can afford to drop $1000 and their only week of vacation to sit and learn how to write a letter
requesting hangar space, yet they watch as those around them who may be much less involved, get promoted
because they have less to do in the summer (for example the myriad insane staffers that spend June-August
at encampments, NBB, NFA, NESA, etc., some with no break).

I know for a fact this has cost us memberships, because at some point people are people and even the most
altruistic like to be recognized for their years of dedication.

Find a way to make the conferences free, not require overnight stays, run a lot more staff colleges with more
realistic schedules (there is absolutely no reason RSC needs to be a week, none.), etc., etc..

[Eclipse]

Conferences are a good time to do some actual PD/ES/CP/Communications training.

People believe that, but they really aren't.

There is too much diversity in the need and too much competition for time.  It's the same 200 people doing all the
work in most wings, so the conference tracks compete and you either wind up with anemic attendance
across the board, or one jammed room and three empty because people have to choose.

Put something with a cart on the end of it and that usually takes those people out of the conference itself for the
duration, negating the idea other then the "we're all in the barn so let's dance" aspect of most conferences.

There are few PD sessions which only last a day, and if you're killing a day, or worse two, on SLS/CLS/TLC, then that's not a conference, it's just that "thing",
plus dinner and the expense of having to stay overnight (many times).  PD sessions should be offered locally often enough
and in proximity to the membership so overnight stays are not required.

Most Conference PD winds up being basic information and "training" which members are supposed to be getting
from their home squadrons, and it 's usually too generalized to provide anything "new".

[THRAWN]

Conferences are a good time to do some actual PD/ES/CP/Communications training.

People believe that, but they really aren't.

There is too much diversity in the need and too much competition for time.  It's the same 200 people doing all the
work in most wings, so the conference tracks compete and you either wind up with anemic attendance
across the board, or one jammed room and three empty because people have to choose.

Put something with a cart on the end of it and that usually takes those people out of the conference itself for the
duration, negating the idea other then the "we're all in the barn so let's dance" aspect of most conferences.

There are few PD sessions which only last a day, and if you're killing a day, or worse two, on SLS/CLS/TLC, then that's not a conference, it's just that "thing",
plus dinner and the expense of having to stay overnight (many times).  PD sessions should be offered locally often enough
and in proximity to the membership so overnight stays are not required.

Most Conference PD winds up being basic information and "training" which members are supposed to be getting
from their home squadrons, and it 's usually too generalized to provide anything "new".

We never had an issue with it. For about a decade and a half. BLUF: you're picking the seminars and training sessions that you want to attend anyway, make them worthwhile. The timing issue is not an issue at all. Check in late afternoon on Friday. From 1800-2000, first inbrief for your PD session; 2000-whenever social hour/meet and greet; Saturday general assembly and then off to class; Saturday evening banquet; Sunday class and leave. It's not rocket science.

[Eclipse]

We never had an issue with it. For about a decade and a half. BLUF: you're picking the seminars and training sessions that you want to attend anyway, make them worthwhile. The timing issue is not an issue at all. Check in late afternoon on Friday. From 1800-2000, first inbrief for your PD session; 2000-whenever social hour/meet and greet; Saturday general assembly and then off to class; Saturday evening banquet; Sunday class and leave. It's not rocket science.

This isn't a conference, this is a PD weekend.

[E-Cubed]

Ozzy,

The true meat and potatoes "for most standard members" of any conference is the Saturday PD sessions, you should be able to get credit for the conference by participating in them. Remember to sign in when you arrive.

Here are a few of the unfortunate draw backs to doing this.

1. How it this documented for your records?  "Back in the day wings used to send out to the members a memo for your records for attendance this is no longer accomplished depending on the wing.  Now a days the burden of proof is on you that you actually attended.  So ensure you have a photo of yourself in front of a sign that says something like "XXXXX Wing Conference" or sign in and take a photo of your name on the sign in sheet.

2.  If you are looking for this a stepping stone to promotion you will find it won't work depending on your personal situation and relation to others within CAP.  "it has been and always shall be the rule of the land to make "LtCol you should be working at that level and attending, hobnobbing, and generally being social to ensure you are making the proper contacts within your wing. Unless you are:       Mass Wing - Part of a family that has two LtCols, you will also become a LtCol.  (or) if you consistently cannot wear a uniform property but seem to get things done.

3. You will meet people at a conference who are wing level and above who, do not know basics about the military, a good example of this are Wing Commanders who believe that we wear GRADE on out epaulets or sleeves.  For those of you who read this GRADE is short for Pay-Grade a military term that determines the pay level for an individual.  Rank is what we wear.

In the end if you are a happy camper at Capt or Major and are being effective at your position and can successfully pass a SUI inspection at the unit level congratulations!! You are part of the 85% majority who know and understand that everything truly happens at the unit level.  If you truly wish to become a commander or above it is recommended to perform you proper corporate duties and attend full conferences, assist in running them, go to staff colleges and assist in running them and generally try to educate those around you about doing things properly and knowing the publications.

IG member at large
Rouge One out..

[kwe1009]

We never had an issue with it. For about a decade and a half. BLUF: you're picking the seminars and training sessions that you want to attend anyway, make them worthwhile. The timing issue is not an issue at all. Check in late afternoon on Friday. From 1800-2000, first inbrief for your PD session; 2000-whenever social hour/meet and greet; Saturday general assembly and then off to class; Saturday evening banquet; Sunday class and leave. It's not rocket science.

This isn't a conference, this is a PD weekend.

Agreed.  If you are sitting in a CLC (or whatever) class the entire time of the conference then how is that different that just having a very expensive PD weekend with a banquet on Saturday night?

To me if you have going to have a good conference you need to provide value for the fee.  Give classes/seminars of interest that aren't normally given and keep them to less than a couple of hours.

[Eclipse]

If anything, trying to cram PD like an SLS, etc., into a conference weekend is a detriment to the idea.

For starters, those kinds of classes should be at no charge, but past that, everyone in
those classes sessions is, by design, precluded from participating in the actual conference, yet (presumably)
had to pay the same fee(s) as everyone else.

[THRAWN]

If anything, trying to cram PD like an SLS, etc., into a conference weekend is a detriment to the idea.

For starters, those kinds of classes should be at no charge, but past that, everyone in
those classes sessions is, by design, precluded from participating in the actual conference, yet (presumably)
had to pay the same fee(s) as everyone else.

Could be, depending on how everything is scheduled. Like I said, I've seen it work.

[Spam]

IG member at large
Rouge One out..

"Rouge" One?

Is that an X-wing pilot who is known for wearing too much facial makeup?



J/k,
Spam

[lordmonar]

So......Conferences do have value.

The face time with people from the Back 40.  A chance for wing personnel to meet staffers who are just faceless names on e-mails.   Attending various sessions.  Expanding your horizons, etc et al.

Ok....so far so good.

Requiring a member to attend two of them to be able to put on major...sounds good on paper.  Sure a Major should be outside the comfort zone of his squadron/group and expand his horizons and meet and greet with the rest of wing.  I accept that as a generally good thing.

Now here's the clincher.

Someone please show me in the regulations what is or is not a "conference".

For example.....all cadets must attend a "encampment" before they pin on 2d Lt. or attend any NCSAs.   We go to the regulations and see that an Encampment has minimum content requirements.  There are minimum time requirements.  We have a whole pamphlet saying "this is what an encampment looks like and this is how you run one."

We got nothing like that for "conferences".   NVWG holds Bi/annual Wing Staff meetings...that often have break out sessions, seminars, PD classes and some of the elements of what we do at our "annual conference".   But the wing staff meetings don't count.

My second issue with the requirement to "Attend" two conferences is.......define attend.  I mean you would go to Orlando...sign in, get your welcome packet and then take the boat to Disney World and never once attend an seminar, hob nob in the lobby, take some pictures of National Commander or any of those thing we usually associate with "attending".......but you got your name on a attendance certificate so you get credit.

Just like for cadets.....we need a better definition of what attendance is....at least for the PD credit.

My third issue is with E-service.   [darnit]!  If this is important why is there no place to enter said credit into E-service?   Why is there no way for the conference staff enter it en mass?   As is....we got a whole spectrum of "requirements" on how to document attendance.  Everything from "Did you attend two?.....Why Yes I did sir!.....Okay that's good enough from me."  To "You need to show the conference attendance PA signed by the wing PDO, two signed copies of the cert they gave you in the welcome package, a photo of you in the hotel lobby....preferably with someone we know was there too....and a signed and notarized affidavits from two other attendees attesting to them seeing you in both the opening on Friday night and the closing meeting on Sunday morning."

My final issue is that the requirements.....don't seem to go far enough.  If you got to go to two wing conference to get Level III....why don't you need to attend two regional conference to get Level IV and two national conference to get Level V?

So they are important at the lower level....but not so much later on.   
Make me wonder if it the requirement was put into place just to drive up attendance at the wing conference.


Okay....Rant off.

[EMT-83]

Trying to knock out PD courses during a conference is a waste of time. You can either attend one of the other, but not both.

There was the time that someone got the bright idea of running an IG course prior to the Wing conference - two days of time off work and another night to pay for the hotel room.

[SarDragon]

3. You will meet people at a conference who are wing level and above who, do not know basics about the military, a good example of this are Wing Commanders who believe that we wear GRADE on out epaulets or sleeves.  For those of you who read this GRADE is short for Pay-Grade a military term that determines the pay level for an individual.  Rank is what we wear.

As much as I agree with your statement in principle, it's wrong as far as CAP goes. CAPR 35-5 calls it grade, as does CAPM 39-1. This goes all the way back to the CAPM 50-3 Leadership Lab Manual from 1965, and it continues in the 1981 version. They both refer to grade insignia, and not rank.

There is also specific text, essentially unchanged over the years, defining the difference between rank and grade.

Sometimes the terms "grade" and "rank" are confused. Colonel or captain are examples of grades, but no two officers in a grade have identical rank - one is always senior to the other.

That's the way I learned it as a cadet back then, and it's still taught the same way today.