To re-new or not

[CAPDCCMOM]

Greetings All.

I have almost two years in CAP now. I am looking at the Re-New Notice in E-Services, and for the life of me, I can't decide whether to press the click here to process, or just let it die out. There are some things that I completely enjoy about CAP. then there is the rest. I have had it with the cliqueism, and the GOB/G Network. I am tired of a uphill fight just to get simple answers, and people that think they are gate keepers rather than fellow volunteers. I have tried to be the change I want to see, and lead by example, to be hit with "That's how we have always done it". I had to laugh, the other evening, my highest ranking Cadet brought me his "Learn to Lead" and showed me where it said that is the response of a "Knee Jerk Leader", after the most Senior of our Senior Members made the exact comment, but "that's how we have always done it". I have even told that my volunteer service is not as valuable as others. I have even heard, at a Wing Level training, "if you don't fly or don't want to actively be a part of aviation, you don't belong in CAP". It has been an uphill  battle to get O Flights for Cadets, any mentoring.

But then I think of my Cadets, they are the reason I have stayed this long.

[Devil Doc]

Well to me it depends on what you do for CAP. I have the same issue every year myself rather to renew or not. I seem to find other ways to do CAP in my own way to keep me going.

[Eclipse]

Are you still a CDC?

"that's how we have always done it".

If the only defense of an idea is the above, the idea generally has little merit.

I have even told that my volunteer service is not as valuable as others.

What was your response?  I'm sure you can imagine what mine would be.

I have even heard, at a Wing Level training, "if you don't fly or don't want to actively be a part of aviation, you don't belong in CAP". It has been an uphill  battle to get O Flights for Cadets, any mentoring.

What utter crap, especially when you look at the actual active membership and who is in uniform week-to-week (hint it's decidedly cadets and CP staff)

I get it, easy for me to say, I have "old kernel syndrome" meaning I know the program, don't have much ego in it anymore, and don't
cotton to nonsense.  I obey my superiors and try to be a team player as much as possible, but stuff like the above gets an immediate correction.

If more people who actually knew the program responded more directly when they know what they are hearing it wrong,
we'd all be better off. And yes, the "despite what the regs say, do this" attitudes are at the core of the issue.

This is the second or third time recently we're hearing about wings that make O-rides a hassle.  I just don't get this one bit,
assuming there isn't some other real factor, my wing and region are all about the rides, all the time, even to the point of bumping
proficiency in favor of cadets.  How is it this isn't the norm?

Bottom line, either you think you're making a difference within your sphere, and / or the ROI is at least even, or it isn't.
I think a lot of members make their renewal decision every meeting night when they decide whether or not to get dressed
at 6pm.  Then the day comes that they hit Tivo instead and before you know it they are gone.

If you're gonna go, hit renew, and make that last year memorable, in a positive "lead, follow, or get out of the way" kinda way.

[Toad1168]

My answer to this question, and the reason I came back, is rather simple.  To be part of something bigger than yourself.  Yes we all face the old guard mentality.  After 20 years total, with a nine year hiatus, I have seen some of the same people making the same arguments that whole time.  I have also seen new up and comers who strive to make a difference.  It really becomes a question of what do you get out of it.  For me, it's seeing cadets get their first stripe.  And then the fire to keep going, striving for the next promotion.  Seeing parents brimming with pride at their son or daughter's accomplishments.  That is why I stay.  To pass on what I have learned and to help in whatever small way I can, to help shape our future leaders.  For without them, we are lost.

[TheSkyHornet]

My A/CDC has contemplated quitting several times due to many of the issues he has seen in CAP leadership throughout various units, including some philosophical differences. I tried to explain to him that there is a greater cause in what we do, and up and quitting ends the hard work we put forth to ensure our cadets can learn to mature and take on responsibilities they may otherwise not experience should we walk away.

It takes time and constant effort to sustain it.

[CAP9907]

In my 20+ years in CAP, I have seen my ups and downs and have been where you are right now. My advice is to stay in; if you wish to keep making an impact and possibly a change, you can only do that by being a Member. Take a leave if needed, but keep in the program.... Nothing here can get better if you are on the outside looking in.

[Holding Pattern]

Greetings All.

I have almost two years in CAP now. I am looking at the Re-New Notice in E-Services, and for the life of me, I can't decide whether to press the click here to process, or just let it die out. There are some things that I completely enjoy about CAP. then there is the rest. I have had it with the cliqueism, and the GOB/G Network. I am tired of a uphill fight just to get simple answers, and people that think they are gate keepers rather than fellow volunteers. I have tried to be the change I want to see, and lead by example, to be hit with "That's how we have always done it". I had to laugh, the other evening, my highest ranking Cadet brought me his "Learn to Lead" and showed me where it said that is the response of a "Knee Jerk Leader", after the most Senior of our Senior Members made the exact comment, but "that's how we have always done it". I have even told that my volunteer service is not as valuable as others. I have even heard, at a Wing Level training, "if you don't fly or don't want to actively be a part of aviation, you don't belong in CAP". It has been an uphill  battle to get O Flights for Cadets, any mentoring.

But then I think of my Cadets, they are the reason I have stayed this long.

The best advice I can give is to just throw your focus into the unit. There is plenty you can do in a unit before even dipping your toe into group/wing level politics.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I have even told that my volunteer service is not as valuable as others.

What was your response?  I'm sure you can imagine what mine would be.

I have even heard, at a Wing Level training, "if you don't fly or don't want to actively be a part of aviation, you don't belong in CAP". It has been an uphill  battle to get O Flights for Cadets, any mentoring.

What utter crap, especially when you look at the actual active membership and who is in uniform week-to-week (hint it's decidedly cadets and CP staff)


If you're gonna go, hit renew, and make that last year memorable, in a positive "lead, follow, or get out of the way" kinda way.

I don't always agree with Eclipse, but when I do, I do so vigorously!
(Just waiting for the meme picture now....)

Seriously: this is good advice, and my reaction to being told my service was less valuable would be as loud as his or more so..   

The action is at the local level; if your ROI balances as a minimum at your unit, stick with it because you **are** making a difference.

[Robert Hartigan]

Don't renew! I still had time left on my membership and opted to retire instead of letting my membership year run out. I have a nice certificate, which by the way I had to call National HQ to get it, and some fond memories of great people and experiences albeit colored with a lot of poor leadership and poorer management over 31 years of membership.

Unfortunately, I experienced all of the above negative attributes described by CAPDCCMOM and to a exponential power because I was a squadron commmander; I filtered a lot of WGHQ BS from my people so they had a better membership experience. There is a major disconnect between the national level goals/objectives and what happens at the local level. I have said it before, I believe you could get rid of Wings/Groups, focus on the local level and achieve more with even less than the less there is now.

As for the airplanes, those are pseudo flying clubs or worse fiefdoms of corruption; you don't need a type rating to fly a 182, but if you are not in the custodial unit they make the Form 5/91 more arduous and cumbersome than a type rating. Forget orientation rides, it is easier to take Cadets to a EAA Young Eagles event than get them in a CAP airplane.

If there were more people like Eclipse in CAP I would have stayed and wadded through the quagmire of queep and toxic leadership. Don't renew! Don't waste your time, talent and, treasure anymore. It doesn't get better, it only sucks a little less sometimes.

[THRAWN]

Don't renew! I still had time left on my membership and opted to retire instead of letting my membership year run out. I have a nice certificate, which by the way I had to call National HQ to get it, and some fond memories of great people and experiences albeit colored with a lot of poor leadership and poorer management over 31 years of membership.

Unfortunately, I experienced all of the above negative attributes described by CAPDCCMOM and to a exponential power because I was a squadron commmander; I filtered a lot of WGHQ BS from my people so they had a better membership experience. There is a major disconnect between the national level goals/objectives and what happens at the local level. I have said it before, I believe you could get rid of Wings/Groups, focus on the local level and achieve more with even less than the less there is now.

As for the airplanes, those are pseudo flying clubs or worse fiefdoms of corruption; you don't need a type rating to fly a 182, but if you are not in the custodial unit they make the Form 5/91 more arduous and cumbersome than a type rating. Forget orientation rides, it is easier to take Cadets to a EAA Young Eagles event than get them in a CAP airplane.

If there were more people like Eclipse in CAP I would have stayed and wadded through the quagmire of queep and toxic leadership. Don't renew! Don't waste your time, talent and, treasure anymore. It doesn't get better, it only sucks a little less sometimes.

Nonconcur.

CAPDCCMOM, it's very obvious that you are passionate about cadets and the program. Don't toss that away because of a few bad experiences. I commanded at the squadron and group levels and held staff slots at the wing level. Looking back over the years since 1994, the best times I had were at the squadron level, interacting with cadets and helping them become the incredible adults that they are today. Many have gone on to careers in public service, but all are solid citizens and we keep in contact often. You are having a bigger impact than you realize. Don't allow a couple of insignificant wannabes stand in the way of doing something that you love. Renew. Then take a break. Take off for 2 or 3 weeks. Go to the beach. Catch up on The Goldbergs. Recharge your batteries. Then when you go back, be the mentor and leader that you obviously are.

[Brit_in_CAP]

CAPDCCMOM, it's very obvious that you are passionate about cadets and the program. Don't toss that away because of a few bad experiences. I commanded at the squadron and group levels and held staff slots at the wing level. Looking back over the years since 1994, the best times I had were at the squadron level, interacting with cadets and helping them become the incredible adults that they are today. Many have gone on to careers in public service, but all are solid citizens and we keep in contact often. You are having a bigger impact than you realize. Don't allow a couple of insignificant wannabes stand in the way of doing something that you love. Renew. Then take a break. Take off for 2 or 3 weeks. Go to the beach. Catch up on The Goldbergs. Recharge your batteries. Then when you go back, be the mentor and leader that you obviously are.

+1 on taking a break.  I did, and it was very helpful.  Definitely recommend The Goldbergs... 

Seriously, perspective is important.  I relinquished CDC when I had to work out of town for 3 months, and came back gradually, not as the CDC.  I put my efforts into the CDI track and program, let the new CDC drive on as they needed to.  Ironically, she's hit a wall aaaaand.....I'm back, apparently...

I agree with Thrawn, the best times are at the squadron level and the investment in the cadets is what makes it worthwhile.  You - we - make more impact than we realize and, curiously, the cadets add at least as much to our lives as we add to theirs, and often more.   

You can only do what you can do, and as long as you do that to the best of your ability then you are doing no one a disservice. 

Don't let the back row guys put you off - you know them, sit at the back, talk incessantly in meetings but just below audibility and have an opinion on everything but do nothing 'cos nothing will change.

Robert's opinion and experience is both valid and common, sadly, but it needn't be yours.

[CAPDCCMOM]

THRAWN and Brit, and Eclipse and everyone else. Thank you. You all are the the kinds of people that are the reason I love CAP. As for the rest, can we dress 'em like a pinata and beat 'em with a stick. You guys have made me feel much better, and have made a tough decision that much tougher. Guess I will go binge watch the Crown, and Downton Abbey, and come back swingin' I hope. And hopefully with the best decision made, both for me and for the Cadets that are like sons and daughters to me.

Cheers to you all.

[FW]

Binge watching TV is definitely helpful...   CAPDCCMOM, I truly understand (and most of us also) what your going thru.  If I had a dollar for every idiot member who told me similar "stuff", I'd be retired, and flying my Mooney around the world.... LOL.  If I actually paid attention to the drivel, I'd not have had the many opportunities that came my way over the past "few" years.  Membership is what you make of it.  Enjoy what you do, and don't pay much attention to the whiners and complainers. They are a distraction. 

[Chappie]

CAPDCCMOM....there were two occasions over the past 20 years where I seriously considered not renewing...won't go into the particulars but they were significant.   But the items that kept me from bailing were: 1) the basic reasons I joined had not changed - that of providing service to the members of the organization...especially the cadets...and my community/country, and; 2) the relationships that I had built within the organization.  I have found that CAP is a dynamic organization and not a static display....things change in time, people (commanders/leaders, in particular) change...it may be slow, but in time things do get better.  There have been a couple of occasions where I "flew under the radar"...basically decided to do the things in CAP that would be fun, fulfilling and say "no" to things that others could/should do if they were presented the opportunity.  There is more than enough activities/events/positions to go around that someone else could benefit from.   Keep in mind that CAP is a VOLUNTEER organization...you can volunteer to do something (an by all means, honor that commitment) or not volunteer to do something.

[kwe1009]

Not renewing is something I have struggled with and I have only been in CAP just over 4 years.  I joined because I wanted to help mentor cadets and not for any other reason.  I don't care about rank or ribbons.  The Air Force has supplied me nicely with both. 

I quickly grew tired of the GOB/G system and the "this is how we have always done it" crowd.  I had four options in my mind.  I could accept it and conform (not my style and not what is best for the cadets).  I could quit (again, not my style and it certainly wouldn't help the cadets).  I could fight the status quo and raise a stink whenever I saw something I didn't like (that would go nowhere fast).  I could work to affect change slowly. 

I chose the last option and I can happily say that things have gotten better on the past four years.  It has not been easy and it required me to take on leadership positions that took me away from dealing exclusively with cadets.  While that is a negative to me, the amount of equality and fairness that I have been able to help usher in far outweighs that negative.

So, you can leave and the system continues on or you can stay and help to make things better.  There really isn't a right or wrong answer here as staying and trying to make things better for everyone takes time that some people just don't have.

[Eclipse]

I chose the last option and I can happily say that things have gotten better on the past four years.  It has not been easy and it required me to take on leadership positions that took me away from dealing exclusively with...

I can't tell you how many times I've seen or head this.  It doesn't matter the how or what, only the result.

Far too many members join to do "x", only to find that "x" isn't happening due to artificial limitations, inertia, of the GOB.
The only way to get to "x" is to move into an area of influence which takes the member away from the thing they wanted to do.

A year later they are mired in an SUI argument over the margins on letterhead while they watch their members get to partake in the
opportunities that they made possible by their "sacrifice".  Then at some point it's just too much hassle, they leave, and the
fissure closes back up around the remaining members as the obstacles reassert themselves.

Rinse, Repeat on a 1-3 year cycle you can just about set a watch to.

[kwe1009]

I chose the last option and I can happily say that things have gotten better on the past four years.  It has not been easy and it required me to take on leadership positions that took me away from dealing exclusively with...

I can't tell you how many times I've seen or head this.  It doesn't matter the how or what, only the result.

Far too many members join to do "x", only to find that "x" isn't happening due to artificial limitations, inertia, of the GOB.
The only way to get to "x" is to move into an area of influence which takes the member away from the thing they wanted to do.

A year later they are mired in an SUI argument over the margins on letterhead while they watch their members get to partake in the
opportunities that they made possible by their "sacrifice".  Then at some point it's just too much hassle, they leave, and the
fissure closes back up around the remaining members as the obstacles reassert themselves.

Rinse, Repeat on a 1-3 year cycle you can just about set a watch to.

True but that cycle can be broken if enough people with integrity step up to be leaders and they also mentor those around them properly.  This isn't just a CAP problem, it exists in some form in every organization.

[Robert Hartigan]

This seems a tad naive for a solution to the woes of CAP. When you have a bacterial infection you don't add more good tissue, you fight the infection with an antibiotic thereby killing off the bacteria.

If you really want to attract and retain people with integrity increase the barriers to entry. Then establish a standard of conduct that does not diminish any volunteers contribution and if a leader or an agent of that leader violates the standard dismiss the offender and the leader with prejudice because until the chain of command is held to a higher standard of conduct and no longer protected by the GOBN things will not change.

A nice start would be, if a member prevails on appeal of an adverse membership action then the chain of command is terminated from CAP to make sure the true offender of the standards is punished. When a provision like that is in place then you can talk about people of integrity stepping up. Until then, they will be ground into 2Bs for being squeaky wheels and troublemakers according to the GOBN.

[James Shaw]

CAPDCCMOM - I wrestle with the same dilemma each year. May of 2017 is six months away but I have already thought about my future in CAP. My son is a C/CMSgt and hopes to make C/2Lt before then. Our agreement was that he stay in until he made Mitchell and them we would talk about participation. He also serves in NJROTC as a C/Ensign and wants to concentrate on that. If he does, then my intent and purpose for staying in has largely been complete. I have been in 16 years. That thought may change between now and then.

It has become more of a challenge to convince my wife to take a week of vacation time for a CAP activity when I only get three weeks each year.

I have served at all levels of CAP and have had the chance to serve with fantastic people but my focus has personally and professionally changed since joining.

I advised my command last year that I would be taking a step back about 95% to complete my Master's. I completed my assigned duties and that was it. No more no less but status quo. Scary part was I liked the freedom to get the work done and now that I am done with school and soon to be changing CAP assignments, I am not sure how it is going to work out.

I will tell you the same thing I was recently told by a fellow CAP member and former SER Commander. "Look at the reason you originally joined and see if that feeling is still there. If it is, latch onto that feeling and stick with it".

Maybe you CAPDCCMOM will be giving me the same advice in 6 months.

If CAP needs one thing it is to keep good members.

[TheSkyHornet]

I think an important aspect is missed here in people's decisions to stay or leave CAP. We all know why people leave; that's pretty much a given. It's not for them, or they don't like a lot of the culture throughout CAP that doesn't reflect on what they think "should be" the norm.

Anyway, CAP is a mission. It's not just an activity or a hobby. It's a part of a much bigger profession with a purpose of serving an objective. It differs from just being a youth program or a club, even though many people treat it as such. For me, there's a certain service aspect that comes with what I do that I just love to be a part of. It's stressful, and I'd love to quit and go back to not getting 4 hours sleep before work and having 3 hours of fun-filled CrAP after. But that's what I stick around for; it's not just fun, it's an accomplishment in our efforts.

So, I think if you can find what it is that you do for CAP, not what CAP does for you, you may see a different perspective on it. That's just me, though. I can't speak for everyone else here. I just know that I'd rather burn myself being a part of a greater effort, despite how often I may feel like it's futile, than sitting around doing nothing while I could be here doing my job. Then again, I always joke that I'm a lifer who will probably get fired before I hit my 5-year mark.

Mission first.

[Simplex]

This was the post I was looking for. Struggling with the same issues. I can see 20 years just over the horizon and would really like to get that certificate even if I have to call like Robert did. I don't like to 'quit'. Posts like this have helped me over the years as has the whole of CAP Talk. Thank you all for you insightful comments and suggestions.

I'll probably renew, just not yet.

Happy New Year everyone!

[docrameous]

I joined CAP to have fun and serve my country.  When I renew, I have have to weigh up the challenges against whether I am still having fun and  I able to serve my country for another year.  So far, the answer has been yes.

[Eclipse]

The only real retention program CAP has is "Sunk Cost".

Hi Nin!

[LATORRECA]

  Staying or not is a issue with yours personal growth and satisfaction you can get out of it.  For some reason. I always find a reason to continue. I do find the people and sense of devotion of others very respectable plus I do cherished my time as cadet many moons away and I want my cadets to have the same opportunities I did. For that reason I stay. Screw the people whom stayed around because is a flying club. Stay do good and carry on.

Top Latorre

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

[SarDragon]

Removed two duplicate posts.

[McDaddy2003]

I was a former cadet and became an inactive Senior at the squadron while I was active duty Air Force. Being Security Forces, I never really had an opportunity to transfer to Ramstein Composite or Eglin Composite (Kunsan obviously didn't have a unit LOL). Whenever I was in town on military leave I attended my meetings, and participated in weekend activities as this "guy often referred to but never seen".

I separated from Active Duty in Jan 2010 and became a full member, but April 2010 saw me become an Active Guard Reservist in my Reserve unit (ABGD Instructor for Security Forces Pre-deployment). As training requirements shifted to more focus of night operations by July 2011, plus recently becoming married, I dropped my membership. With new reductions of the total force, my full-time commitment came to an end in September 2015, and I reverted to a Traditional Reserve status and gained employment with a defense contractor (Stark Industries as a hint).

Now my life has more free time to dedicate to CAP and an interested step-son old enough to join, I rejoined my CAP unit and am still waiting on my membership to process through.

Why did you join? Have the reasons why you joined changed? At the very least, I'd argue renewing membership one more year and "ghost", keep contact with the unit. Maybe things can change. I wanted out as a cadet in 2001, but 9/11 motivated me to stay in. I really regret dropping my membership in 2011.

[Starbux]

I can definitely relate to what the OP is referring to.  I have been on the business end of this in my past CAP life in the 90's and early 2000's.  I would throw out the hip pocket stat that 80% of the organization are genuine volunteers wanting to contribute for the right reasons.  Then there are the 20% who's sole motivation is to inflate their ego with awards, power and positions.  These are the people who flaunt there rank let you know that you are a Lt and they are a Capt.  Some of these people are not just toxic leaders, I have run across some real nasty human beings in the past.  These minority will wreck the organization.  I have seen so many good people ran out because of them.  They play games like trying to get others actioned on for minor nebulous causes.  Like SM X hosts Y activiity it turns out there is a gray area whether Y Activity was allowed.  SM "Pig" gets wind of the activity finds some nebulous rule that may or may not have been broken.  Instead of SM Pig being reasonable, he starts the phone chain and gets a complaint filed and an investigation going.  Usually the people he called don't have the full context what really happened, so they knee jerk and start throwing their input in.  Then before you know it SM X has a lynch mob brewing.  Usually the issue is resolved once it hits wing, but not after the rumor train has started and not after a bunch of people write staff memos recommending 2B action or suspension. 

So then SM X can either say yeah I will continue to support the organization or they opt to leave.  Unfortunately 90% of the time they will leave. 

Now that I rejoined, I don't plan on trying to be the becon of change.  I accept that this organization is what it is.  I don't have time in my life to get into a spat with someone over their little domain.  I support the mission do what I can to contribute.  I don't expect to be bothered by someone who may have an insecurity complex and CAP is their only achievement in life.

[MSG Mac]

I was in your shoes last year, let two renewal notices go by and was talking to a former National Commander about not renewing. He told me that after almost 50 years of CAP service that I had much to pass on to the younger generation. It's not the local people, but the Wing and Region Commanders that I have lost faith in. Wing Commander lies and prevaricated, Region Commander looks like a blivic in uniform and wears a National Guard medal around his neck. When reminded that it was a violation of CAPR 39-3, he replied " The National Commander hasn't said anything about it" Hopefully when MG Vasquez steps down in August, the new CAP/CC will replace him.

[Luis R. Ramos]

What the heck is a "Blivic?"

PM sent.

[Edited to add]

Never mind, I found the meaning.

[James Shaw]

Well I decided to renew again for year #17. My son is looking at the pros and cons of CAP and NJROTC. In the past he has leaned towards NJROTC more so because I use to be in the Navy. He has been telling his mother and I that he may want to go into the Air Force instead of the Navy because he wants to work as a Biomedical Equipment Technician and the USAF has a great program. Initially I wanted him to keep with the family tradition of serving in the Navy as most of my family has done, but that has been my desire and not his. He wants to look at the programs for both services and really understand what they have and what future prospects look like with both services.

He is a smarter young man at 17 than I was and is approaching it better than I did. I chose the Navy for tradition and he is looking at it more objectively.

Whatever his decision is he will not make it lightly and understand more than I did at that age simply because he is not trying to get away from the house he wants a career. I've always known he was a smart and capable kid, but he surprised us with his plans and rationale. Whatever service if any he chooses will be right for him and his future.

The Squadron he is in has more SM's now than anytime in the past that I can remember and I feel like an out of place Dinosaur at times. They are a great group of folks that are very dedicated to the cadets and the missions.

For me Safety is my thing,  Emergency Services is growing on me more and more, and Professional Development is where I may be more active help.