This looks interesting and promising

[abdsp51]

CAP controlled... just like CAP is controlling all encampments... which we are hearing now that some... are not following CAP NHQ directives...?

Which means that the Wg/CC needs to pay a visit to it or HHQ needs to as well and take action.  Or we can just maintain the status qou and wonder why other programs fair well than we do depending on location. 

[PHall]

I saw this last enc season, looks to me like someone's idea of a "Good Idea" that's not likely to mean
much in the grande scheme.

The risks of incorrect intensity and hazing issues alone should be enough for most encampment leaders to
take a pass. 

The whole point of encampments isn't "perfect execution", it's development of EVERYONE involved
students, cadre, and adult staff, as CP leaders for today and the future.  The problem today is that the
numbers have shrunk so low in many wings that there simply aren't qualified INTERESTED members
to fill the staff, and many members treat encampments as their personal band camp to do whatever they
feel like every year with almost zero oversight from higher hqs (despite it being required).

Every place you put a non-member into the mix you rob someone of their chance to either learn or lead.

Again, the fix for this is proper leadership from higher HQ and recruiting, not reaching to a different service
with different goals, and non-members with some perception of "saving" CAP.

:clap:

This. It's a leadership program. How doth one teach leadership when one reduces the opportunities to provide practical application within the organization?

We strive for perfection, knowing we can never achieve it, whilst teaching through experience. That's how you show "this is what you came up with; this is what you did (executed); this is how it turned out; let's tweak it and do it better next time."

I'm finding Encampment in itself is turning into a "This is how everyone before us did it, so we have to do it this way" without understanding why that way may have worked (or didn't work) to begin with. Things have turned to emphasis tradition and not actually training at all levels. Even at the home unit, I emphasize that those cadets in charge of an activity are still trainees themselves, just at a different level.

The very first thing I thought of when I read the document at the Proving Ground was "what, are we so short on senior members now that we need to seek help elsewhere?"

Granted, more integration with the rest of the Air Force family is great (and needed) but I can see this quickly becoming something that few senior members step up when "AFROTC will take care of it."

Yes, we are short of Senior Members who can give up 8-10 days of vacation to serve as Training Officers at Encampment.

[Huey Driver]

How could we justify paying for AFROTC cadets to assist at encampments, when everyone from CAP is paying and forfeiting their time to be there? With a few circumstances, AFROTC doesn't currently receive TDY or per diem at all - even for field training.

I'm not sold on this plan, primarily due to AFROTC's norms of functioning clashing with CAP's and our lack of standardization... but I do like the desired outcomes. I've also seen the shortage of qualified SMs who can give up a week of work to be a TO. I think that AFROTC cadets meeting the given criteria could surely fill this void, and do an exemplary job - especially mentoring their flight staff.

[Mitchell 1969]

My first reaction was that it is a great solution. Now, to find a problem to match...

My second reaction was that it really is vague. "Mentoring cadets" could sure use a lot of fleshing out.

Then I thought...isn't "mentoring cadets" what we already expect of our more senior cadets? And, what cadet mentiring capabilities and magic does a 19-20 year old AFROTC cadet have, after 2-3 years, that our own 19-20 year cadets do not have after 7-8 years?

[arajca]

On thing that jumps out is the AFROTC cadet(s) are outside the Encampment chain of command.

...cooperating with all reasonable directions given by the CAP encampment commander

So, which party determines what is reasonable? CAP Encampment Commander or AFROTC cadet?

Also, as mentioned earlier, who pays for the AFROTC cadets to attend?

[RogueLeader]

On thing that jumps out is the AFROTC cadet(s) are outside the Encampment chain of command.

...cooperating with all reasonable directions given by the CAP encampment commander

So, which party determines what is reasonable? CAP Encampment Commander or AFROTC cadet?

Also, as mentioned earlier, who pays for the AFROTC cadets to attend?

It appears from the section VII, CAP-USAF is the anticipated fund Souce.

As to what is reasonable, I would expect that those details are worked out prior to encampment, and that if one side or the other believes it to be unreasonable, neither side is obligated to allow the joint project to progress forth.  That just seems like comman sense to me.

[Eclipse]

It appears from the section VII, CAP-USAF is the anticipated fund Souce.

CAP-USAF already has budget issues just performing their actual role and mission - man days are
severely limited, as is travel and RON, etc., I would be dubious of any plan than funds ROTC cadets attending encampments.

[RogueLeader]

It appears from the section VII, CAP-USAF is the anticipated fund Souce.

CAP-USAF already has budget issues just performing their actual role and mission - man days are
severely limited, as is travel and RON, etc., I would be dubious of any plan than funds ROTC cadets attending encampments.

I'm not disagreeing with that.  The question was asked: "Where is the money coming from?"  The answer is right there as to who, as of right now, is expected to pay for it: "CAP-USAF."

They may certainly come down and say that they can't support it due to budget constraints.  Then each of the other concerned parties can have a say as to who will foot the bill, at least the chance to say "Not it"  I highly doubt the the Wing in question would end up footing the bill.  I doubt I would if I was the Wing/CC.

[kwe1009]

I would say that an ROTC cadet in their third or fourth years don't have any more experience or maturity than a CAP cadet of the same age unless that ROTC cadet was also in CAP for a period of time.

This is what I was told regarding the NC Encampment: the ROTC cadet was a TAC officer for the color guard flight and there was also a CAP Senior Member assigned to that flight.  The ROTC cadet was outstanding and her main responsibility was teaching color guard to around 10 cadets.  She did RST and also CPPT before encampment.  I have no idea who paid for her to attend.  Overall it was a successful test but a very narrow test in my opinion.

With that said, I would not think that an ROTC cadet would be a good fit in terms of teaching anything CAP-specific at an encampment unless they were former CAP cadets.  The reasons are very simple: ROTC cadets are not familiar with how CAP works or CAP's goals as well as students at encampment are mostly brand new to CAP and you are asking someone who knows little about CAP to teach them about CAP (not a good formula).

Is there a place for ROTC cadets at encampments?  I think so but we have to be smart about it and not just assume that any ROTC cadet has the leadership skills and maturity to do any job.  In many cases I would say that there are many 17-year-old CAP cadets who have just as much leadership skills as that Junior or Senior ROTC cadet. 

[Mitchell 1969]

I would say that an ROTC cadet in their third or fourth years don't have any more experience or maturity than a CAP cadet of the same age unless that ROTC cadet was also in CAP for a period of time.

This is what I was told regarding the NC Encampment: the ROTC cadet was a TAC officer for the color guard flight and there was also a CAP Senior Member assigned to that flight.  The ROTC cadet was outstanding and her main responsibility was teaching color guard to around 10 cadets.  She did RST and also CPPT before encampment.  I have no idea who paid for her to attend.  Overall it was a successful test but a very narrow test in my opinion.

With that said, I would not think that an ROTC cadet would be a good fit in terms of teaching anything CAP-specific at an encampment unless they were former CAP cadets.  The reasons are very simple: ROTC cadets are not familiar with how CAP works or CAP's goals as well as students at encampment are mostly brand new to CAP and you are asking someone who knows little about CAP to teach them about CAP (not a good formula).

Is there a place for ROTC cadets at encampments?  I think so but we have to be smart about it and not just assume that any ROTC cadet has the leadership skills and maturity to do any job.  In many cases I would say that there are many 17-year-old CAP cadets who have just as much leadership skills as that Junior or Senior ROTC cadet.

Yes. Exactly. What I see is a program that will simply add one more C/Capt - C/COL to an encampment. If AFROTC cadet wants to do that, then a cadet staff position would be appropriate. Or, at most, an assistant level staff position, befitting a Flight Officer level CAP member. But I don't see any developed skill sets that would put them in any advanced mentoring capacities to cadets, or "advisor" role to the Commandant or Encampment Commander.

Simple solution, if people are fixated on implementing this - open up encampment cadet staffing opportunities to AFROTC cadet officers, on par with CAP cadet officers. And make it clear that their chain of command for the duration goes through the CAP chain. It's little different than taking our cadets out of their squadron chain temporarily when it comes to encampment business. Or the relationships that have been used when various encampments have included RCAC cadets in the mix.

[TheSkyHornet]

I saw this last enc season, looks to me like someone's idea of a "Good Idea" that's not likely to mean
much in the grande scheme.

The risks of incorrect intensity and hazing issues alone should be enough for most encampment leaders to
take a pass. 

The whole point of encampments isn't "perfect execution", it's development of EVERYONE involved
students, cadre, and adult staff, as CP leaders for today and the future.  The problem today is that the
numbers have shrunk so low in many wings that there simply aren't qualified INTERESTED members
to fill the staff, and many members treat encampments as their personal band camp to do whatever they
feel like every year with almost zero oversight from higher hqs (despite it being required).

Every place you put a non-member into the mix you rob someone of their chance to either learn or lead.

Again, the fix for this is proper leadership from higher HQ and recruiting, not reaching to a different service
with different goals, and non-members with some perception of "saving" CAP.

:clap:

This. It's a leadership program. How doth one teach leadership when one reduces the opportunities to provide practical application within the organization?

We strive for perfection, knowing we can never achieve it, whilst teaching through experience. That's how you show "this is what you came up with; this is what you did (executed); this is how it turned out; let's tweak it and do it better next time."

I'm finding Encampment in itself is turning into a "This is how everyone before us did it, so we have to do it this way" without understanding why that way may have worked (or didn't work) to begin with. Things have turned to emphasis tradition and not actually training at all levels. Even at the home unit, I emphasize that those cadets in charge of an activity are still trainees themselves, just at a different level.

The very first thing I thought of when I read the document at the Proving Ground was "what, are we so short on senior members now that we need to seek help elsewhere?"

Granted, more integration with the rest of the Air Force family is great (and needed) but I can see this quickly becoming something that few senior members step up when "AFROTC will take care of it."

Yes, we are short of Senior Members who can give up 8-10 days of vacation to serve as Training Officers at Encampment.

This as well.

No offense to the fine Senior Members throughout CAP Talk and the community, but I feel that I put in a lot more of my own personal time to CAP than most others I come across. Now, this could be because I'm single and have no life, as I always say, but I do whatever I can to make sure my cadets have opportunities that they couldn't have elsewhere. And it's exhausting, but I enjoy it. But there's a limit. I just can't take off a week of work to dedicate that to a week of staffing Encampment among the other time off that I need to take.

Last Encampment, I left work an hour early (all I could get) to drive 3 hours and staff for a weekend, getting back home Sunday night around 11pm so I could be at work in the morning. I made the mistake of pledging that I'd like to come back next summer and do the entire week. But as my schedule looks, I probably won't be able to do that. It's just too much time away.

Now, in direct offense to some Seniors, some people put so much half-arsedness into their work as it is. Kudos to those who really put that time and effort in to make some great activities happen, despite results. But I can't imagine having some large scale integrated events that already take way more coordination than CAP-only activities with the current staffing we have. Maybe there's some glorious Wing out there that can pull off just about any challenge, but it's hard enough to run even small scale, in-house opportunities, let alone the Wing-wide ones that require Air Force cooperation/corroboration (and they're already experts at that). Trying to integrate with other youth organizations seems like an absolute nightmare, especially when we're trying to train our own cadets using our own methods in with our organization's resources. We can't expect the other organizations to be at our pace, or us to theirs. It just sounds like a nightmare.

[abdsp51]

Gents.  The background paper has said they would be assistants/mentors,  not advisors to commanders, not taking away a staff position from a CAP cadet.

Also this is college level ROTC not high school JROTC.  Totally different levels here. 

I get the flak but honestly I think this has been one of the better proposals to come out of NHQ in awhile.

Personally I would like to see this here in CAWG.  That would really give it a trial run.

[PHall]

Gents.  The background paper has said they would be assistants/mentors,  not advisors to commanders, not taking away a staff position from a CAP cadet.

Also this is college level ROTC not high school JROTC.  Totally different levels here. 

I get the flak but honestly I think this has been one of the better proposals to come out of NHQ in awhile.

Personally I would like to see this here in CAWG.  That would really give it a trial run.

We have a number of senior cadets who are in AFROTC who are aging out of the CAP Cadet program who would be perfect for this program.
For starters, they know how CAP does encampment, have been through RST before and are known qualities to us.

[Eclipse]

If they have time to come as ROTC, why can't they just come as CAP members?

[abdsp51]

If they have time to come as ROTC, why can't they just come as CAP members?

Maybe this is a means to get them into CAP especially once they commission....  Valid question though.

[PHall]

If they have time to come as ROTC, why can't they just come as CAP members?

If we're going to have ROTC at Encampment why not have it be people we know and who have a clue of what's going on?

[Mitchell 1969]

Also this is college level ROTC not high school JROTC.  Totally different levels here. 

I don't see where anybody has confused them with AFJROTC people, so I think it is understood that they are different levels here. However, I don't see how 19-22 year old AFROTC cadets with 4 years in AFROTC are at different levels than 19-(not quite) 21 year old CAP cadets when it comes to staffing CAP encampments.

But, I'm not king of the forest. Give it a try. My prediction is that the only takers will be CAP cadets ( or ex-CAP cadets) who are also in AFROTC, so I suppose they'd fit in. I'm not sure there is much incentive for an AFROTC cadet without CAP background to get involved. Prove me wrong, though, and I'll applaud, whistle and stomp my feet at appropriate moments.

[TheSkyHornet]

Also this is college level ROTC not high school JROTC.  Totally different levels here. 

I don't see where anybody has confused them with AFJROTC people, so I think it is understood that they are different levels here. However, I don't see how 19-22 year old AFROTC cadets with 4 years in AFROTC are at different levels than 19-(not quite) 21 year old CAP cadets when it comes to staffing CAP encampments.

But, I'm not king of the forest. Give it a try. My prediction is that the only takers will be CAP cadets ( or ex-CAP cadets) who are also in AFROTC, so I suppose they'd fit in. I'm not sure there is much incentive for an AFROTC cadet without CAP background to get involved. Prove me wrong, though, and I'll applaud, whistle and stomp my feet at appropriate moments.

From what I have seen of ROTC cadets running field training exercises under the oversight of ROTC Cadre, it's night and day when compared to CAP Encampment.

Keep in mind that ROTC will always have a much more mature training program than CAP cadet activities in regard to the mentoring and planning oversight. ROTC will also usually have a much higher expectation of the cadet staff running an activity, and they will not be so keen to coddle the sub-par performers because they're being trained for military service whereas CAP cadets are youth leaders in training. It's not to say one is better at doing it than the other for that age level, but you're going to see a different scale and different scope of organization and planning under collegiate ROTC 20-year-olds than CAP 20-year-olds because ROTC is going to end at 17 years of age as the youngest person up through their 30s. The 20-year-old cadet in CAP is at the upper-most age, whereas the average is going to be around 14-16. While I think a lot of 14-year-olds have the potential to really work their way to being expert planners and managers, you're going to see a contrast with an ROTC cadet because of the maturity of the training program as well as the fact that it is at the collegiate level.

What ROTC can bring to CAP activities is that higher maturity in their training process. But the problem is that cadets are at such scattered qualities of training, not to mention the vast differences between individuals of the same age based on their own maturity and intellectual development.