This looks interesting and promising

Started by abdsp51, October 25, 2016, 12:18:33 AM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

abdsp51

So I was looking at capmembers.com and came across a proposal to have AFROTC cadets help out at encampments.  Looking at the proposal paper it looks promising and interesting and I would like to see it actually in execution. 

Here is where you can find the paper:

https://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/library/proving_grounds.cfm


PHall

I can see this being a benefit to both sides and I can also see this becoming a train wreck.
It's totally in the execution...

abdsp51

Definitely...  Not OK with some of the verbiage used in the paper but it sounds like a thought out sound concept.

Spaceman3750


jeders

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on October 25, 2016, 02:35:51 PM
No RST included in the training phase?

Presumably, that would be completed with everyone else during the execution phase.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

I saw this last enc season, looks to me like someone's idea of a "Good Idea" that's not likely to mean
much in the grande scheme.

The risks of incorrect intensity and hazing issues alone should be enough for most encampment leaders to
take a pass. 

The whole point of encampments isn't "perfect execution", it's development of EVERYONE involved
students, cadre, and adult staff, as CP leaders for today and the future.  The problem today is that the
numbers have shrunk so low in many wings that there simply aren't qualified INTERESTED members
to fill the staff, and many members treat encampments as their personal band camp to do whatever they
feel like every year with almost zero oversight from higher hqs (despite it being required).

Every place you put a non-member into the mix you rob someone of their chance to either learn or lead.

Again, the fix for this is proper leadership from higher HQ and recruiting, not reaching to a different service
with different goals, and non-members with some perception of "saving" CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

Alaric

Quote from: Eclipse on October 26, 2016, 03:04:24 PM
I saw this last enc season, looks to me like someone's idea of a "Good Idea" that's not likely to mean
much in the grande scheme.

The risks of incorrect intensity and hazing issues alone should be enough for most encampment leaders to
take a pass. 

The whole point of encampments isn't "perfect execution", it's development of EVERYONE involved
students, cadre, and adult staff, as CP leaders for today and the future.  The problem today is that the
numbers have shrunk so low in many wings that there simply aren't qualified INTERESTED members
to fill the staff, and many members treat encampments as their personal band camp to do whatever they
feel like every year with almost zero oversight from higher hqs (despite it being required).

Every place you put a non-member into the mix you rob someone of their chance to either learn or lead.

Again, the fix for this is proper leadership from higher HQ and recruiting, not reaching to a different service
with different goals, and non-members with some perception of "saving" CAP.

Eclipse, stop holding back, tell us how you really feel

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on October 26, 2016, 03:04:24 PM
I saw this last enc season, looks to me like someone's idea of a "Good Idea" that's not likely to mean
much in the grande scheme.

The risks of incorrect intensity and hazing issues alone should be enough for most encampment leaders to
take a pass. 

The whole point of encampments isn't "perfect execution", it's development of EVERYONE involved
students, cadre, and adult staff, as CP leaders for today and the future.  The problem today is that the
numbers have shrunk so low in many wings that there simply aren't qualified INTERESTED members
to fill the staff, and many members treat encampments as their personal band camp to do whatever they
feel like every year with almost zero oversight from higher hqs (despite it being required).

Every place you put a non-member into the mix you rob someone of their chance to either learn or lead.

Again, the fix for this is proper leadership from higher HQ and recruiting, not reaching to a different service
with different goals, and non-members with some perception of "saving" CAP.


:clap:

This. It's a leadership program. How doth one teach leadership when one reduces the opportunities to provide practical application within the organization?

We strive for perfection, knowing we can never achieve it, whilst teaching through experience. That's how you show "this is what you came up with; this is what you did (executed); this is how it turned out; let's tweak it and do it better next time."

I'm finding Encampment in itself is turning into a "This is how everyone before us did it, so we have to do it this way" without understanding why that way may have worked (or didn't work) to begin with. Things have turned to emphasis tradition and not actually training at all levels. Even at the home unit, I emphasize that those cadets in charge of an activity are still trainees themselves, just at a different level.

Paul Creed III

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on October 26, 2016, 03:19:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 26, 2016, 03:04:24 PM
I saw this last enc season, looks to me like someone's idea of a "Good Idea" that's not likely to mean
much in the grande scheme.

The risks of incorrect intensity and hazing issues alone should be enough for most encampment leaders to
take a pass. 

The whole point of encampments isn't "perfect execution", it's development of EVERYONE involved
students, cadre, and adult staff, as CP leaders for today and the future.  The problem today is that the
numbers have shrunk so low in many wings that there simply aren't qualified INTERESTED members
to fill the staff, and many members treat encampments as their personal band camp to do whatever they
feel like every year with almost zero oversight from higher hqs (despite it being required).

Every place you put a non-member into the mix you rob someone of their chance to either learn or lead.

Again, the fix for this is proper leadership from higher HQ and recruiting, not reaching to a different service
with different goals, and non-members with some perception of "saving" CAP.


:clap:

This. It's a leadership program. How doth one teach leadership when one reduces the opportunities to provide practical application within the organization?

We strive for perfection, knowing we can never achieve it, whilst teaching through experience. That's how you show "this is what you came up with; this is what you did (executed); this is how it turned out; let's tweak it and do it better next time."

I'm finding Encampment in itself is turning into a "This is how everyone before us did it, so we have to do it this way" without understanding why that way may have worked (or didn't work) to begin with. Things have turned to emphasis tradition and not actually training at all levels. Even at the home unit, I emphasize that those cadets in charge of an activity are still trainees themselves, just at a different level.

The very first thing I thought of when I read the document at the Proving Ground was "what, are we so short on senior members now that we need to seek help elsewhere?"

Granted, more integration with the rest of the Air Force family is great (and needed) but I can see this quickly becoming something that few senior members step up when "AFROTC will take care of it." 
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Group 3 Ohio Wing sUAS Program Manager

THRAWN

Paul, you got it right on. We're already having issues filling slots and this will make it much more difficult. I follow the intent of the concept, but am not sure that it can or will be properly executed. Eclipse's point about "perfect execution" is excellent as well. Encampment is hard work, from soup to nuts. It takes a lot of preplanning and reactive planning and Semper Gumby to keep it moving. Again, the intent is good but it may cause more issues than anticipated.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Paul Creed III

Quote from: THRAWN on October 26, 2016, 03:54:44 PM
Paul, you got it right on. We're already having issues filling slots and this will make it much more difficult. I follow the intent of the concept, but am not sure that it can or will be properly executed. Eclipse's point about "perfect execution" is excellent as well. Encampment is hard work, from soup to nuts. It takes a lot of preplanning and reactive planning and Semper Gumby to keep it moving. Again, the intent is good but it may cause more issues than anticipated.

And I completely agree that is a learning opportunity for all involved, from the newest cadet all the way to the encampment commander. I've been a TAC (back when they were called that) and that experience helped immensely when I went on to staff NCSA's.
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Group 3 Ohio Wing sUAS Program Manager

abdsp51

I think it shows promise and it was done last year in NC.  The goal is not to replace anyone or take a slot away. 

If executed right this can be beneficial to both sides. 

You guys have brought up some good points about not having enough people.  What's stopping you guys from reaching out to neighboring wings?

When I was in AZ I applied for the encampment there and the one here in CA back in 14 when itblooked like there might be issues with work. 

Was accepted to both wings and had to decline the position in CA.

The focus here is to build interorganization visibilty and provide training across the board.  There are alot of expectations and requirements for the AFROTC cadet to participate. 

It worked last year in NC according to the background paper.  It could work and be in asset in some of the larger wings...

Eclipse

Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2016, 04:36:44 PM
The focus here is to build interorganization visibilty and provide training across the board. 

Um...what?

The above is neither the goal nor mission of the encampment program, and ROTC cadets are pretty much outside
the demo to join CAP.

As to asking for help from different wings?  Which wings, exactly, have so many extra members that they
can peel them off for other wings?

If anything the cadets and seniors on the annual road show are part of the problem - instead of them building
their home wing programs they are off building frequent flyer miles somewhere else.   When that happens,
there is no way to build a program, do progressive training, or even count on who is going to show up the next year.

"That Others May Zoom"

abdsp51


Eclipse

Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2016, 06:05:51 PM
Eclipse, did you read the proposal?

Yes, I did, and?

Another issue.  Who's paying for this?

Encampments are not free, many cost several hundred dollars.

"That Others May Zoom"

abdsp51

Quote from: Eclipse on October 26, 2016, 06:32:11 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2016, 06:05:51 PM
Eclipse, did you read the proposal?

Yes, I did, and?

Another issue.  Who's paying for this?

Encampments are not free, many cost several hundred dollars.

Great you read the proposal.  Then you can see the thought process behind it.

And no ROTC cadets are not putside the demographic in fact they could be part of an ideal demographic. 

And for the wings asking for help. While you are going with the numbers game it shouldn't be about numbers but the willingness and determination to help out.  Again I applied for 2 encampments 1 being a days drive and a hundreds if not thousands of miles away.

As to who's paying it either the ROTC Det can foot the bill or the cadet themselves can.  One thing I have learned in my current and even a previous job there are ways of finding money.

No one is saying to make this a done deal and part of encampment permanantly just ots a proposal and from the looks of it a decently thought out one. 

You say it numerous times "more people"  this is a way for more people to help,  build upon a prexisting relationship and expand those in the know.  Especially for Ma Blue which plenty of members cry about.

Eclipse

ROTC cadets are >not< in CAP's cadet demo.  Considering they are in college and in ROTC, if they
haven't joined CAP by then, they aren't going to join in any numbers that are meaningful.

That is a simple fact of logistics.  There aren't units at the schools, they already have too much to do
as college students, and they get plenty of "blue" from ROTC.

What I say is we need more members, not "random help from people not in the program", MEMBERS.

More people "with ideas" just bring more issues, more time to train them outside CAP's advantage, and
this continued perception CAP needs to be rescued by anyone with a .mil email address - people who generally
no little to nothing about what CAP is, and are there to "fix" it (until they see what's going on and either leave or
are told to "knock it off, this isn't the military").

Want my attention? Put these ROTC cadets in CAP uniforms so they are under CAP's command and
have committed to the program and then you'll at least have my attention.

Has everyone just given up on the actual program?  How about recruiting enough people so that
CAP is the premier program compared to ROTC and they want to "learn" from CAP?  Or is that just no
longer an option?



"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

I am with Eclipse on this one.

The last thing we need now is another different concept training cadets so we can hear "at the Encampment the ROTC cadets did it that way."

We are going to hear "Why are they allowed to do such and such?"

Right now there is too much non-standardization in CAP. Covers. Caps. Hats.

Non-uniform uniforms.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

abdsp51

Gentlemen, then you have missed that in that same paper if you actually read it and not skimmed it it states that its all CAP controlled. 

This is a potential win-win for everyone. 

1) Exposes cadets to the AF in a different light

2) Increases awareness of CAP with the AF when these ROTC cadets graduate and commission before becoming group commanders

3) Potential recruiting pool for Seniors which can always use more of and a potential in with an installation. 

This has the attention of the BOG and can as stated before can be win-win and above all a good idea to enhance and build better relations with the AF. 

And Eclispe no not everyone has given up on the program but the reality is that if CAP is going to be "THE" program it needs to do alot more than what it currently does.  And I say that as a former CAP/JROTC cadet.

Luis R. Ramos

CAP controlled... just like CAP is controlling all encampments... which we are hearing now that some... are not following CAP NHQ directives...?
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer