Question about the short-sleeve shirt for Senior Members

[cmoore]

I've got a question that I can't seem to find an answer to in the uniform manual.
When wearing the AF style short-sleeve blue shirt it says that a Senior Member
Without Grade wears the CAP collar insignia on both collars.  Do I also wear
epaulets?  Or is the CAP collar insignia instead of the epaulets.

Also, when I make 2LT, I understand I'd wear the 2LT epaulets.  Do I then wear
anything on the collars?

[Mac]

As a "Senior Member" you would only wear CAP cutouts on your collar, and you are correct when you put on 2Lt then you would wear epaulettes and remove the cutouts. The epaulettes that have no rank insignia on them are for SM NCO's that would wear pin on rank on the blank grey epaulettes.

Hope this helps.

[MIKE]

To add to what has already been said:

The way CAPM 39-1 is worded an SM is not an officer by definition.  As an SM you wear the CAP metal cutouts on the collar of Service Uniform shirts or on the lapels of the Service Dress.  Often overlooked by many is that SMs are supposed to wear the enlisted flight cap and not the flight cap of officers (FO-Col)... Nor should you wear sleeve braid on Service Dress.

Many SMs that I have seen make the following uniform mistakes:
- "Officer" flight caps.
- SM NCO epaulets w/o metal NCO grade.
- U.S. cutouts instead of CAP cutouts on collar or lapel.
- Cutouts worn on shirt collar when in Service Dress.
- Sleeve braid on Service Dress.

[cmoore]

Thanks for the information.  That's pretty much what I thought...except for the flight cap part.  That hadn't occurred to me. 

Assuming I get promoted to 2LT after my six months time-in-grade it kind
of makes me wonder if it's worth buying a flight cap that I'll only wear
for a few months...especially at $14 a piece from CapMart.  It might be
worth it to just wait another month or two and plan for an officer's
uniform.

[MIKE]

If you need to wear the Service Uniform as an SM... Then spring for the flight cap and cutouts.  If your lucky you can sell them to a cadet when you get your bars and recoup some if not all of the cost.

It seems that the first uniform a lot of seniors get are BDUs or the blue Field Uniform... Have seen some that have gone out and got aviator shirts or golf shirts.  I'd advise against getting Service Uniforms as an SM to save costs... You can probably get by with a civilian equivalent for the time being.  For some it also takes a bit of training to wear it properly, so again it's better to wait IMO.

[afgeo4]

Wearing CAP cutouts on blue shirt under service coat is unauthorized?  What happens when one removes the service coat?  Where does it state that this is unauthorized?

Which service dress coat does a SM (no grade) wear?  The Officers or Enlisted?

When I was a SM I did not own a service coat and thus bypassed all issues.  Plus, because I was in a composite squadron, I was able to purchase an enlisted flight cap from the squadron (they were purchased in bulk for cadets.)

[Matt]

Wearing CAP cutouts on blue shirt under service coat is unauthorized?  What happens when one removes the service coat?  Where does it state that this is unauthorized?

Which service dress coat does a SM (no grade) wear?  The Officers or Enlisted?

When I was a SM I did not own a service coat and thus bypassed all issues.  Plus, because I was in a composite squadron, I was able to purchase an enlisted flight cap from the squadron (they were purchased in bulk for cadets.)

Yes, wearing the cutouts on the shirt when wearing a service coat is unauthorized.  In that sense, it would be similar to a cadet Airman wearing cutouts on the shirt collar and the service coat collar.

It's been a while since I gandered at 39-1, but I don't believe it specifies, and because of that, it isn't authorized.  When you remove the service coat, you should have a name plate on the blues shirt.  The grade however, in theory, would then need to be put back on (easier for officers since you can wear epulets under).

As for the O or the E service coat.  A buck-SM would where the enlisted service coat, not the braided-wrist officers' style.  The uniform manual does not say that it is not authorized; however, by proxy it is not because it does not say it is. (IMO Cadet Officers should be allowed to because of having epulets and because with transition to SM they would be minimally a FO.)

[afgeo4]

Actually Lieutenant, because the regulation SPECIFICALLY states that CAP cutouts must be worn on the collars of the blue AF shirt, the wear of these cutouts is not only authorized, it is REQUIRED.  Nowhere does it state that the insignia will not be worn simply because you put another garment (service coat) over it.  You must really understand the fact that the regs will NOT spell everything out for you step by step.  They assume some level of judgement and logic on your part.  Simply put, just because it doesn't say you must use toilet paper after going potty, doesn't mean you don't.  And yes, cadets must wear grade insignia on both, shirt and service coat at the same time.  Just as grade is to be worn on blouse and any outer garment at the same time.

When was the last time you've seen a military officer change his/her insignia from service coat to shirt?

[Eclipse]

I agree with the above with regards to the cutouts staying on the collar.

Th eabove issue(s) is the reason I recommend seniors stay in a golf shirt until they make 2nd Lt. 

Its only 6 months, and there is rarely much that slick-sleeve new members would do that they can't do in golf/grays or civvies during that time.

There is also the expense.  No point dropping $300 on service dress to find you don't like the organization. (Officer jackets are about $160 alone these days)

This way you also don't ruin the shirt collar w/ the cutouts.

[Matt]

Actually Lieutenant, because the regulation SPECIFICALLY states that CAP cutouts must be worn on the collars of the blue AF shirt, the wear of these cutouts is not only authorized, it is REQUIRED.  Nowhere does it state that the insignia will not be worn simply because you put another garment (service coat) over it.  You must really understand the fact that the regs will NOT spell everything out for you step by step.  They assume some level of judgement and logic on your part.  Simply put, just because it doesn't say you must use toilet paper after going potty, doesn't mean you don't.  And yes, cadets must wear grade insignia on both, shirt and service coat at the same time.  Just as grade is to be worn on blouse and any outer garment at the same time.

When was the last time you've seen a military officer change his/her insignia from service coat to shirt?

**Dusts off CAPM39-1.pdf**

Ok, you want to get technical...  Then, you in theory would be wrong.  Since donning the service coat is donning a separate uniform than simply wearing the blues shirt, then the uniform would then be a different wear; of which, CAPM 39-1 states, and I quote, "Lapel Insignia: Highly polished U.S. insignia worn by senior member officers; highly polished CAP insignia worn by senior member NCOs and Airmen and senior members without grade. Insignia is placed halfway up the seam, resting on but not over it. Bottom of insignia is parallel with the ground."

Because you are in the "Service Dress Uniform" shirt cutouts are not warn.  There is no distinct picture for buck-SM's, you are correct, the regs do not spell things out in their entirety, however when you are wearing a separate uniform all together, that makes the difference.  The reason that officers do not remove their grade is because they're epaulets, nothing SAYS they have to wear them, they're simply assuming it.

As for Cadets wearing grade on both, there is photographic evidence otherwise: CAPM 39-1, Page 17, and again, it's a separate uniform of the short-sleeve  blues uniform, it is the SERVICE DRESS UNIFORM.

Also, military officers wouldn't have to change insignia because on the service coat, it is the metal insignia and on their epaulets it's embroidered  .



Also, an outer garment you wear grade because other grade is covered, it's a shell to your uniform it's not a separate uniform as the blues-shirt/slacks and the service dress is, it's simply an accouterment.

[md132]

I agree.  It's like in the army for PV1 to SPC.  They wear both pin on insignias on their green shirt as well as the sew on ones on the jacket at the same time.   The only thing that is not required on the service blue shirt whether or not you are wearing the jacket are the ribbons.  

[MIKE]

[Superhero Voice]This sounds like a job for... The Knowledgebase. [/Superhero Voice]

Or an emergency change to CAPM 39-1 from CAP/CC. 

Since it was a response my comments that put the paddles to this thread... My read on this is similar to Matt's explanation.  If you take a look the admittedly poor photographs of the cadet enlisted service dress uniforms you will note that none of them show cutouts or grade worn on the shirt or blouse in this uniform combination.  IIRC this was also true of the previous edition of the manual.  Maybe that doesn't set a president for SMs and SM NCOs or cadets for that matter, but that pretty much why I said what I said.

I'm not against the idea myself... I wear embroidered epaulet sleeves a nametag and a basic GT badge on my shirts in service dress so I'm not out of uniform when removing the coat, but I would like to see this clarified... So if someone wants to pose the question to the Knowledgebase or send something up the chain feel free.

[afgeo4]

You gotta love a cadet who argues with a superior officer based not on facts stated in regulations, but on assumptions.

Cadet, the service dress combination is not a different uniform, it is a different COMBINATION.  The service dress uniform is required for most officer work in the Air Force and other services.  Removal of the jacket, is customary in service work.  Just because you hang up the coat on the back of the chair DOES NOT mean you are not in uniform.  It does not mean you've changed uniform combinations either.  It simply means that you've taken off your service coat.   So... a SENIOR MEMBER with no grade IS required to wear the CAP cutouts on his shirt.  And you're wrong about military officers uniforms as well... look up the USMC and USN uniforms... you'll see that they wear metal pin-on rank on their collars along with their service coats.

[Matt]

I'm so glad the Cadet had a good day or the Cadet might take some offense to a "superior's" arrogantly rude attitude.

You gotta love a cadet who argues with a superior officer based not on facts stated in regulations, but on assumptions.

Didn't know we were arguing.  But, if you'd like, we can.  Secondly, must be saying something right if Mike is even partially agreeing with me.  Thirdly, why the rudeness about being a cadet.  I know it could be hard to imagine that a cadet might know something, but it does occassionally happen; so please, drop the attempted personal attack. 


Now, back on to topic....

If one views CAPM 39-1 to set up their respective uniforms, they'd find illustrations as such.






Each one is a different uniform.

The Cadet illustration is in there to show what if they're to have cutouts normally, aside from that, it is the SM diagrams.

Below each illustration is a listing of what is warn on the respective uniform.  When you place your service coat on, you're in service dress, not the basic blues uniform, they are different.  Although they may have the same parts they are different.  If and when you remove the service coat, as stated, you are still in uniform, however, you are in either a short or a long sleeve blues uniform, not service dress.

Each figure has a different combination of what is worn, they are not interchangable or in addition, they are different.


Onto the USMC, their manuals specifiy that the grade is worn on both collar and epulet in the service dress.

When the service "A" uniform is worn by officers, the wear of the collar insignia is required at all times.

The USN does wear metal collar insignia, however, I couldn't find a uniform that would interfere with the equivelent of their service dress, if you give me a combo, I can find it, I couldn't find it in their manual.

[rightstuffpilot]

Looks like C/2d Lt. Kopp is correct .  I can't help but follow CAPM39-1, seems to me its the regulation we should all follow.

[Eclipse]

Um...maybe I missed it, but these pics don't actually help as they do not show a senior  member without grade wearing a service coat, which I thought was the whole point of the argument here.

The only reference I see is with the short sleeved blouse, where it says you wear cutouts.  I can't imagine they would expect you to be taking the cutouts off and on your blouse every time you took your jacket off.

The only reference to cutouts on the collar are saying SM's w/o grade wear them, no indication anywhere that they ever take them off until the get grade.

Unless you can show equivocally otherwise, I say the cutouts stay on the shirt with out without the jacket. (SM w/o grade).

[MIKE]

Secondly, must be saying something right if Mike is even partially agreeing with me. 

The USN does wear metal collar insignia, however, I couldn't find a uniform that would interfere with the equivelent of their service dress, if you give me a combo, I can find it, I couldn't find it in their manual.

Aviation Working Green.

[afgeo4]

There is no argument, but we are making arguments for our opinions.  It's kind of like a debate.  Now, I did contact Knowledgebase on this subject and I did find a somewhat unclear explanation to a similar question posted earlier.  It seemed that it stated that the service dress description in the manual describes the service coat and service coat only and that other chapters cover the blue short sleeve shirt.  I understand that to mean that the short sleeve shirt is covered under figure 2-6 in 39-1 while the service coat is covered under figure 2-1 of the above referenced manual.  As such, I understand that ALL uniform items worn on your body must be up to standards with all required devices and insignia worn at all times.  Could you hide them under the service coat and pretend you're wearing them?  Sure.  Would you be right to do so?  I dunno, ask your integrity and see what it tells you. 

I am still awaiting for the answer from Knowledgebase and will update.

Yes, the pictures don't show CAP cutouts, but the pictures are just for reference, they are not the manual.  It is the wording in the manual that's important and it supercedes all photos and diagrams that may exist.  I think the manual would be just as effective (or maybe even more so considering all the confusion) without the figures and illustrations.

As far as the cadet being or not being happy about my attitude toward him...  I have two things to say:

First of all, I strongly believe that any time you disagree with your superior, you should use this wonderful phrase, "With all due respect sir,.."  That's not an order, it's a recommendation.  Why?  It'll save you embarassment if you're wrong and it'll earn you respect if you're right.  This one I not only say, but use quite often.  It shows that you respect the officer even if you don't agree with him/her.

Second, arrogance is subjective.  Many people have been called arrogant first only to be called competent and confident later.  Believe it or not, but many of us senior members have a lot of experience.  Some as simply senior members, some as prior cadets and some as prior military.  Listening to what they have to say is a good policy to adopt.  Now I take no offense to what the cadet had told me, I simply disagree with him.  However, I think the name calling by Matt was a little overboard.  This may be a debate, heck, it may even be a heated debate, but we are officers, not some schmucks off the street, so please, let's act like it.

[SarDragon]

[redacted] First of all, I strongly believe that any time you disagree with your superior, you should use this wonderful phrase, "With all due respect sir,.."  That's not an order, it's a recommendation.  Why?  It'll save you embarassment if you're wrong and it'll earn you respect if you're right.  This one I not only say, but use quite often.  It shows that you respect the officer even if you don't agree with him/her. [further redacted]

Possibly off-topic.

OUCH! I am of exactly the opposite opinion. From a thread on CS: 'Yeah, when I [see/hear] "With all due respect," I just substituted the words "Without any respect whatsoever.." for the true meaning.'

I agree with that perception as do many others. Years ago, it may have actually been respectful, but in the time I've been exposed to it (over 40 years), it has not really carried a respectful interpretation.  YMMV.

[Eclipse]

More time is wasted on these boards arguing about insubordination, lack of respect, and general nonsense.

I will admit that cadets need to recognize that these boards do not exist in a vacuum and their actions and demeanor may reflect negatively on both themselves and the organization, but don't we all have better things to do than rehash the "Senior vs. Cadet Cage Match" on almost every topic by about the 6th post?

CS is much worse with pages and pages of this nonsense.

Stay on topic, answer the question and move on, if you don't like the tone, report them or PM them. It's bad enough we can't even agree on thinks like 39-1 which is all in black and white, yet apparently read in gray, but this "he-said / she-said" stuff is so counterproductive.