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NCO Program Launched

Started by ProdigalJim, October 21, 2013, 10:36:18 PM

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Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 04:51:52 AM
Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?
Yes...why not?  What's wrong with a little Frankenstein?  We got Cadets sporting pilot wings.....a pilot is a pilot.....now if you started saying "only officers can be pilots" well then you would be creating a monster.

Air Force seems to think so.

Private Investigator

Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?

Can a SMWOG wear "Pilot" wings?  8)

Private Investigator

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 04:55:53 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 04:51:52 AM
Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?
Yes...why not?  What's wrong with a little Frankenstein?  We got Cadets sporting pilot wings.....a pilot is a pilot.....now if you started saying "only officers can be pilots" well then you would be creating a monster.

Air Force seems to think so.

Now you are talking apples and oranges. And mijo, I prefer avocados   8)

Panache

I have to agree Eclipse here.  What's the point of this, really?  Of all the problems in CAP, what will this actually solve?

My Squadron has, at most, nine active Senior Members.  The SM's, myself included, already pull multiple staff positions.  What exactly would being an NCO entail, exactly?

Basically, what I'm asking is:  in the confines of CAP, how does having some SM's to be officers and others to be NCO positively affect the mission?

vento

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 04:51:52 AM
Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 AM
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?
Yes...why not?  What's wrong with a little Frankenstein?  We got Cadets sporting pilot wings.....a pilot is a pilot.....now if you started saying "only officers can be pilots" well then you would be creating a monster.

Of course everybody can be a pilot, I am simply trying to point out that in the real military, everybody can be a pilot, but only officers can be military pilots and wear their respective wings.

So, if we model ourselves after the real military, in our case the USAF, then we will not be utilizing the volunteers to their maximum potential if we don't allow NCO to be CAP pilots. Yet, if we deviate, then our USAF style uniform will look quite interesting when worn by CAP NCO sporting CAP pilot wings walking within AFB. I am not sure what the RM USAF's reaction would be. Just saying.


Shuman 14

#45
My two cents for what it is worth...

Not everyone should be an officer, or NCO for that matter but anyone that wants to volunteer, there should be place for them.

So prior-Service enlisted or officer, your rank should transfer to an equal level in CAP... if you want to. Some may choose to start at the bottom and work their way up.

If you are a certified pilot but don't have a degree, then use the Technical Flight Officer Grades like Warrant Officers in the Military and place them their for their skill.

Have a Bachelors or higher degree then the officer ranks become open to you.

The trick is where do you place all the others without prior Service, pilot certifications or degrees and prior cadet time when they become senior members?

Also, do you grandfather the existing or require them to meet the new requirements?

That being said, maybe you might even need enlisted ranks for those that don't have any of the above (pilots, degrees, etc.) but still want to volunteer.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

lordmonar

Quote from: Panache on October 22, 2013, 05:17:50 AM
I have to agree Eclipse here.  What's the point of this, really?  Of all the problems in CAP, what will this actually solve?

My Squadron has, at most, nine active Senior Members.  The SM's, myself included, already pull multiple staff positions.  What exactly would being an NCO entail, exactly?

Basically, what I'm asking is:  in the confines of CAP, how does having some SM's to be officers and others to be NCO positively affect the mission?
None......but neither does it add to any problems....so why belly ache?

If it has zero influence on you and your program, move on.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

NCRblues

Quote from: shuman14 on October 22, 2013, 05:20:44 AM


Have a Bachelors or higher degree then the officer ranks become open to you.



Why?

Why limit who can do what?

What issue is this solving? (Answer to that is none, because there is no issue in CAP)

Is there a sudden onslaught of non-college educated members unable to carry out the CAP mission because they lack an accredited college degree? (Oh wait the answer to that one is no as well)



In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

Elioron

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 05:25:36 AM
If it has zero influence on you and your program, move on.

Of course it has an impact on us and our program!  We have to understand and administer the program at the squadron level, make sure that SMs that take the NCO route have the training and opportunities available, and help them to progress.  I'm not saying it's wrong or right, but it is going to have an impact.
Scott W. Dean, Capt, CAP
CDS/DOS/ITO/Comm/LGT/Admin - CP
PCR-WA-019

Shuman 14

Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 05:53:55 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 22, 2013, 05:20:44 AM


Have a Bachelors or higher degree then the officer ranks become open to you.



Why?

Why limit who can do what?

What issue is this solving? (Answer to that is none, because there is no issue in CAP)

Is there a sudden onslaught of non-college educated members unable to carry out the CAP mission because they lack an accredited college degree? (Oh wait the answer to that one is no as well)

Because that is what the actual military requires and if they are going to require that same level of education to attend their schools it might be better to be already in complience with their requirements.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

NCRblues

Quote from: shuman14 on October 22, 2013, 06:11:37 AM

Because that is what the actual military requires and if they are going to require that same level of education to attend their schools it might be better to be already in complience with their requirements.

The very smallest amount of CAP members attend SOS or any of the other PME classes that are (sometimes) offered to CAP. The very vast majority attend RSC and NSC.

The active duty military also requires security clearances, attendance to BMT and it's equivalent to new officers, PT tests, drug testing, "up and out" movement within the ranks, yearly evaluations on performance for everyone, and my personal favorite...mandatory retirement age limits... (Oh ya, they also get paid....)

So, CAP should require all of that just because the "real military" does. No.
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

Panache

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 05:25:36 AM
Quote from: Panache on October 22, 2013, 05:17:50 AM
Basically, what I'm asking is:  in the confines of CAP, how does having some SM's to be officers and others to be NCO positively affect the mission?
None......but neither does it add to any problems....so why belly ache?

If it has zero influence on you and your program, move on.

If it has zero influence, then why bother?  Why expend all the time and energy for something that will have zero change?

Personally, I like the proposal to expand the Flight Officer ranks (although I personally think they should use the title "Warrant Officer" and the corresponding insignia).  SM's start out as a SMWOG as usual, and at their 6-month mark with a completion of Level one, the SM is promoted to Warrant Officer 1.  Let SM's who want to progress in the program but not hold a command position (or train for one) stay as a Warrant Officer, up to Chief Warrant Officer 5.  If you want the "regular" Officer ranks, you have to attend leadership school and hold or have held a command position of some sort.

Yes, I understand that the RealAirForce(tm) doesn't use the Warrant Officer positions, but neither do they have Flight Officers (as a rank) either.  And as a bonus, we can just use existing Coast Guard embroidered rank insignia.

I'm just not seeing the "point" for the NCO corps.

SarDragon

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:55:46 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
But remember a CAP CMSgt is out ranked by a 21 year old kid High School grad with a private pilot license who just completed level 1 and been in CAP less than 3 months. Be sure to render that salute...

Silly to have an NCO corps where the entry as an "officer" is so low. The current CMSGTAF must not have hated the idea as much as the last one did, heard when I was on active duty that was what prevented anything moving forward before now. I love the idea, but with a major rework of of how you become a CAP officer, but that did not happen.

Can't wait to take a look at this.. maybe I'll turn in my sliver oak leaves for SMSgt stripes and then become a chief! No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)
How is that any different then a real CMSgt being outranked by some 22 year old kid with a BA is Left Handed Basket Weaving, and only six months in the service?

The difference of the education. The AD O-1 goes through at least two months worth of days of training on how to be an officer. That's an ROTC student who goes one class period a week for four years, and two two week summer periods. It's likely more, and the OCS and Academy folks certainly get even more. Compare that to Level I, and maybe some weekly OJT, and you have the difference.

BTW, my ROTC experience is for one year, 46 years ago. You don't need to bore us with what's new.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

flyboy53

#53
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 AM
If this is, in fact, just a way for those who choose to wear stripes from another service to be able to be promoted along the same PDO
lines as those who are appointed officers, well, whatever, but without a wholesale rework of PD with another full track, it's pretty
meaningless, since the PDO we have today is not geared towards the NCO's universe.   It's all strategic, management, and command.

Here's something else to pipe and smoke.

Anyone who's ever met a real E-8 or E-9 knows they are a special breed of cat, from their level of commitment, to their bearing, to
their (generally) quiet knowledge and authority that comes from having been there and done that at the highest level of their game.

This will now set up the same paradigm for the NCOs that the officers have had to deal with since CAP day-1.  Members rising to CAP
grade that they would have never earned in the military and then standing toe-to-toe with the "real" officers.

The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.

So then. Consider this. I'm a real (retired) SNCO (AF MSgt) who was also one of the last CAP NCOs when the program was eliminated in the late 1970s.  I personally welcome this change. In this organization, it now gives a choice to a new senior member of which path to pursue -- and I don't think there will be AF SNCOs out there slamming the program as much as you think. I suspect that you will probably see a lot of mentoring going on.

I believe the time is right because it will open up the playing field and give a little more credence to our rank structure. Don't start slamming what we haven't seen yet, when you consider that Chief Walpus and our national commander are both retired AF NCOs. I suspect that this program will be pretty dynamic. Remember that NCOs are the backbone of the Air Force. I suspect that's what is being considered here for the CAP. 

I do know that this program has been in the works since 2009 because I personally talked with the Chief just about this at the 09 NSC.

Maybe CAP officers may now have step up to the plate.

Too bad I'm at the level of this organization that I am (a wing director). The thought of trading silver oak leaves for master sergeant stripes would be pretty easy.

Walkman

Quote from: flyboy1 on October 22, 2013, 11:25:03 AM
...when you consider that Chief Walpus and our national commander are both retired AF NCOs. I suspect that this program will be pretty dynamic. Remember that NCOs are the backbone of the Air Force. I suspect that's what is being considered here for the CAP.

That's a good point.

ZigZag911

Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 PM
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)

Issue #1

There are CAP NCOs presently commanding squadrons.

Nothing in current regulations seems to prohibit this.

arajca

It really says alot about how proud they are of this considering they didn't bother to tell the members or put the notice on eServices.

Angus

I'm trying to look up more info on this and still can't find anything aside from making the program stronger.  Has anyone heard any more about the new program?  Like for example if someone were to walk in off the street and just want to help in the back office with admin be able to do the NCO program or will it still be limited to those members who were active duty?
Maj. Richard J. Walsh, Jr.
Director Education & Training MAWG 
 Gill Robb Wilson #4030

Eclipse

#58
Here's an idea.

How about...

People join to volunteer their time in service to their country.

Everyone starts at the exact same level, no special appointments, no military equivalency, nothing.

Everyone does (or does not do) the same PD and rises through the ranks based solely on what they accomplish within CAP?
If you want to start everyone at E-0 vs O-0, whatever.

As in the real world, those who have "special skills" (whatever they may be) will naturally use them to rise to
various levels and may well progress further and faster then others.  Some will choose not to do anything in that regard
and that's OK too. Most will work hard and use a combo of life skills and internally gained training to progress at an organic rate.

I know, crazy.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

What about former cadets? I'm all for a clean start, but if someone rolls over a few years/right away after being a cadet, they are typically at least 1-2 years ahead in CAP knowledge than the general new off the street member.