USAF Unit Citations awarded to CAP?

[Shuman 14]

Another outsider looking in question, does/has the US Air Force award/awarded the CAP as a whole or as individual units a Unit Citation (i.e. Air Force Outstanding Unit Award, Air Force Organizational Excellence Award, etc.)?

[Eclipse]

No.

Civil Air Patrol members and units are ineligible for military awards, though there are occasions where local commanders hand out military
decorations for various service on an honorary basis.

CAP has its own Unit Citation and National Commander Unit Citation awards.

[lordmonar]

Not quite true......but no CAP does not get USAF Unit Citations.

[Eclipse]

What would we be eligible for?

[Shuman 14]

What would we be eligible for?

Well, outstanding support to an Air Force unit or base the is first thing that jumps into my my mind.

Is there any reason give by the USAF why the CAP is ineligible?

I know I sound like a child crying "why" but I'd really like to understand the thought process that excludes the CAP from this.

The Coast Guard routinely awards unit citations to the USCGAux and I know that civilian personnel assigned to USAF units/bases are included in any unit awards the said base/unit receives... so why not the CAP? 

[lordmonar]

What would we be eligible for?

The Air Medal comes to mind. 

My point is that.....for the most part "civilians" are not authorized military medals.....is a policy more then law.
Just as the CG awards CG medals and unit citations to CGAUX units and personnel....the USAF could do the same with CAP if the chose to do so.

I am not advocating this in any way.....just stating the facts.

[UH60guy]

What would we be eligible for?

The Air Medal comes to mind. 

Though that would require a lot of redefinitions about what CAP really is. The Air Medal, and many other medals, specifically state they are "for award to any person who, while serving in any capacity in the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard of the United States..."

Though CAP is an Auxiliary of the Air Force and by no means am I trying to denigrate our service, but we are not "in" the Air Force as much as many would like to think.

[SarDragon]

Read up o the Air Medal. The first ones were awarded to CAP members.

  The Air Medal was authorized in 1942, and established the award for "any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Coast Guard of the United States subsequent to Sept. 8, 1939, distinguishes, or has distinguished, himself by meritorious achievement while participating in an aerial flight."

[UH60guy]

True, but that was a long time ago and the role of CAP was a little different back then. We're not exactly armed submarine hunters anymore. Though interesting point I see- looking around the internet, I see various sources on the Air Medal citation- some say "...in the Army..." and others say "...in or with the Army..." I'll try to find the actual source document, though it may have been amended since signed.

Edit: It appears the "or with" was added December 27, 1941, about 6 months after the the executive order established the medal on May 11, 1942. Though not all seemingly official sites have caught up after only 70 years to do so.

I guess part of the problem in the military is everyone gets touchy about awards. We give them out a lot in CAP, but the achievement awards in the military (plethora of campaign awards aside) are a little more infrequent. Not to mention, there's only so many levels of them too. I always heard grief when my outstanding intelligence specialist received the "same" Army Commendation Medal as the crew chief or the guy manning the entry control point to the FOB. Completely different jobs, and they all distinguished themselves in their capacity, but somehow everyone flips the heck out when they see someone else getting recognized the same way for doing something different.

I know each service awards Air Medals different. The Navy has their strike flight numerals. The Army only awards them in combat (despite no mention of that in the Executive Order establishing the medal), and I'm not sure how the USAF applies them. I had to spend two years in Afghanistan to earn my two (service, not V device). I can only imagine the weeping and gnashing of teeth if military members saw it awarded to CAP members, well deserved though they may be.

[isuhawkeye]

I was presented this specifically for my CAP service

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander's_Award_for_Public_Service

[Eclipse]

Yes, let's all run to see who can list the most obscure civilian decoration or WWII combat award.

We don't qualify for military decs, and certainly not the ones the OP asked about.

[Alaric]

I was presented this specifically for my CAP service

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander's_Award_for_Public_Service

That's very cool, and you should be pleased that someone chose to recognize your service to them.

[johnnyb47]

Yes, let's all run to see who can list the most obscure civilian decoration or WWII combat award.

We don't qualify for military decs, and certainly not the ones the OP asked about.

You're kind of cute when you get grumpy.

[UH60guy]

You're kind of cute when you get grumpy.

Back to Unit Citations, with apologies to Col. Saunders


Now that I think about it, even if CAP members were able to be issued USAF unit awards, it would be weird to receive awards that not everyone could wear (though I'm sure there is probably an exception somewhere out there)- since USAF awards can't be worn on the corporate uniforms. That's just one reason why CAP has its own set of awards and recognitions, separate from the DoD.

[Eclipse]

Nice!

[Hawk200]

I was presented this specifically for my CAP service

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander's_Award_for_Public_Service

That's pretty cool. Got a ribbon for it?

[Shuman 14]

Yes, let's all run to see who can list the most obscure civilian decoration or WWII combat award.

We don't qualify for military decs, and certainly not the ones the OP asked about.

Again, I have to ask why don't you?

In my career I've seen one Service give another Service awards and civilian agencies too.

For example, when the GWOT first kicked off, there as a L&O Detachment within my BN that was mobilized to augment an USAF SF unit conducting Airbase security. At the end of their tour, all were awarded Air Force Force Protection Badges. Those were entered on the DD-214 at demob and entered into their 2-1 and SRBs.

Also I remember an Army Hospital once receiving a Public Health Service Unit Commendation.

Plus I can point to numerous times when the Coast Guard has awarded their unit citations to other Services and to the USCGAux. Biggest and best example of that is when the Coast Guard Presidential Unit Citation was awarded to the ENTIRE Coast Guard which specifically included the USCGAux and DoCG civilian employees.

The Coast Guard even awards certain of their Service ribbons to the USCGAux, specifically the Special Operations Service Ribbon and the Recruiting Ribbon.

Example of this would the flooding of the DesPlaines River a few years ago. All the USCGAux Flotillas involved in the rescue and recover operations were awarded the SOSR and I think all the Recruits from Great Lakes-NTC that came out to fill sand bags got it too.

Another example I'd like to point out was during Katrina, the State of Louisiana issued a blanket award of the Governor's Unit Citation and the LANG Emergency Service Ribbon to ALL military units that took part in the operations to include all Federal (USA, USAF, USN, USMC, USCG), State (ARNG, AFNG, SDF), foreign (French Naval Units) and Auxiliaries (CAP, USCGAux). Now I know that only the various National Guard and State Defense Force units involved could actually wear those ribbons... its the thought that counts.

So I don't see why the USAF couldn't (if it wanted to) award an appropriate unit award to the CAP or a unit there of.   

[Patterson]

Wow.  The Air Force may award, can award and have awarded Units, Senior Members and Cadets any and/or all decorations, certificates, and awards that are not expressly forbidden by Air Force Instructions.

Doesn't anyone here remember that the majority of all certificates and awards given to CAP members before 1980 were Air Force?  That was when the Air Force had complete control and Command of its Auxiliary...how things have certainly changed!

[JoeTomasone]

And, let's not forget, that when we are "AUX ON", we are indeed an instrumentality of the United States, and the official auxiliary of the USAF - civillians though we may be.  So, for those awards that are awarded for service to the United States and that may be awarded to "any person" or that specifically includes civillians (such as the Aerial Achievement Medal (http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=7770), we are/could be included.

I want one just so everyone goes nuts trying to identify it.   

[a2capt]

And, let's not forget, that when we are "AUX ON"...

When?
..can't the Air Force put in for an award using our own award criteria, and our awards, separate from any USAF awards?

[JoeTomasone]

And, let's not forget, that when we are "AUX ON"...

When?
..can't the Air Force put in for an award using our own award criteria, and our awards, separate from any USAF awards?

CAPR 39-3 doesn't seem to provide for it, but I am sure that it could be handled through CAP-USAF if the need arose:

"Who May Initiate Recommendations. Any CAP member having knowledge of an act or service meriting recognition may initiate a recommendation for an award, except that awards concerning commanders must be initiated at a higher command level or by the appointing authority for NEC members."

<shrug>

[Eclipse]

Yes, let's all run to see who can list the most obscure civilian decoration or WWII combat award.

We don't qualify for military decs, and certainly not the ones the OP asked about.

Again, I have to ask why don't you?

We aren't in the military.

As to the awards for Katrina and similar, that's very nice, and anyone can hand anyone else a certificate or a medal, but I'd hazard a guess that most of the orgs you listed
can't actually wear them on their uniforms. (certainly not the federal agencies).

[Shuman 14]

Yes, let's all run to see who can list the most obscure civilian decoration or WWII combat award.

We don't qualify for military decs, and certainly not the ones the OP asked about.

Again, I have to ask why don't you?

We aren't in the military.

As to the awards for Katrina and similar, that's very nice, and anyone can hand anyone else a certificate or a medal, but I'd hazard a guess that most of the orgs you listed can't actually wear them on their uniforms. (certainly not the federal agencies).

Yes and no. State awards can't be worn on a Federal uniform per Army regulations;  but then I seen former National Guard personnel do it while in the USA and USAR and not get called on it.

Most States' Military Departments authorize the wear of other States' awards and decorations after their own. The most common order of precedence is Federal decorations, the actual State's decorations and other States, within their own order of precedence, then alphabetically by State.


As to USCG and PHS unit awards, all are authorized for wear on the Army uniform, as are the unit awards of the USN/USMC, USAF, and NOAA.

My USCG-PUC and CGUC, both for USCGAux service, have both been properly entered into my Military record (2-1 and ORB) and I proudly wear them on my Army Uniform.

[Shuman 14]

And, let's not forget, that when we are "AUX ON"...

When?
..can't the Air Force put in for an award using our own award criteria, and our awards, separate from any USAF awards?

CAPR 39-3 doesn't seem to provide for it, but I am sure that it could be handled through CAP-USAF if the need arose:

"Who May Initiate Recommendations. Any CAP member having knowledge of an act or service meriting recognition may initiate a recommendation for an award, except that awards concerning commanders must be initiated at a higher command level or by the appointing authority for NEC members."

<shrug>

I guess the point I'm trying to make is... if a CAP unit did something worthy of a unit award, and it was in direct support of a USAF base or unit, and that USAF commander submitted that CAP unit for a USAF unit citation, thru his/her USAF chain of command, and it was approved by higher USAF authority...

WHY couldn't the CAP accept it and WHY wouldn't they allow the members of the cited unit to wear it? 

[UH60guy]

WHY couldn't the CAP accept it and WHY wouldn't they allow the members of the cited unit to wear it? 

Well, some of that goes to CAP's own regulation 39-1. Yes, we can wear military awards- but only the ones approved for use on USAF uniforms (I can't wear my Combat Action Badge, but that's a WHOLE separate sore subject on this board, I won't get off topic here), within a few additional restrictions. However, that's only on the "blues" uniforms.

If you're not in CAP yourself, you may not be aware of the "Corporate" uniforms. The CAP senior members who don't wish to wear USAF style blues or don't meet the weight/grooming standards have a different uniform that is CAP specific. It's basically gray pants with a white shirt. For that uniform, military decorations are expressly prohibited and only CAP's own awards are authorized. So in that case, in theory, a member could be in a unit awarded a USAF commendation, but not be allowed to wear it per CAPR 39-1.

The regulation for that uniform states:
10. CAP ribbons may be worn centered above the left breast pocket. No military ribbons may be
worn.
11. Only the CAP aviation badge and one additional CAP badge are authorized on this uniform. No military badges or devices are authorized.

[lordmonar]

Despite all this angst.

The USAF does not award CAP members military medals (at least not since WWII).  They could....assuming that there is no law limiting who can get the award.....and assuming that USAF interpret "anyone in the armed forces" to include CAP members.

So....that's the end of the argument.
There is nothing stopping them from awarding medals and unit citations to CAP members.....but they just don't.

If you know of a situation where a CAP unit or a CAP member contributed greatly to the USAF's mission in such a way that it deserved a military medal.  There is nothing stopping you from sending up to CAP-USAF.....or up your own chain of command (assuming that you were USAF personnel and that service was directly related to your unit/command).

I don't see it happening....as 99.999% of CAP personnel don't work that closely with USAF personnel and don't directly affect their missions.

[Eclipse]

WHY couldn't the CAP accept it

Two parts:

1) A CAP commander with common sense would accept it with a smile and gratitude, and display it proudly on his wall, perhaps even
making copies for the respective members, but making it clear the ribbon stay in the shadow box.

2) A USAF commander with common sense, and / or whatever board or officer makes the approval decisions would see that the
first sentence of these awards is generally related to the person or unit being in or a part of the military.  Of which CAP members are not, ergo,
we don't qualify, regardless of the service or the intention.

If a CAP member takes a bullet for the president, and then takes more bullets which deflect off the first one for each member of Congress and
the Supreme Court, he still can't be awarded a Medal of Honor.

and WHY wouldn't they allow the members of the cited unit to wear it? 

1) We aren't in the military, therefore do not qualify.

2) Our regulations indicate that the only military awards members can wear are those earned in another service, and
which are approved for wear on the USAF uniform (these leaves any number of legitimately earned decs and badges which
are not allowed for wear by CAP members.

3) There are CAP awards for individuals and units which can be awarded for various distinguished service, those would
be the appropriate decoration.

4) See #1.

[Shuman 14]

WHY couldn't the CAP accept it and WHY wouldn't they allow the members of the cited unit to wear it? 

Well, some of that goes to CAP's own regulation 39-1. Yes, we can wear military awards- but only the ones approved for use on USAF uniforms (I can't wear my Combat Action Badge, but that's a WHOLE separate sore subject on this board, I won't get off topic here), within a few additional restrictions. However, that's only on the "blues" uniforms.

If you're not in CAP yourself, you may not be aware of the "Corporate" uniforms. The CAP senior members who don't wish to wear USAF style blues or don't meet the weight/grooming standards have a different uniform that is CAP specific. It's basically gray pants with a white shirt. For that uniform, military decorations are expressly prohibited and only CAP's own awards are authorized. So in that case, in theory, a member could be in a unit awarded a USAF commendation, but not be allowed to wear it per CAPR 39-1.

The regulation for that uniform states:
10. CAP ribbons may be worn centered above the left breast pocket. No military ribbons may be
worn.
11. Only the CAP aviation badge and one additional CAP badge are authorized on this uniform. No military badges or devices are authorized.

You can wear a CIB, but not a CAB... that makes SOOO much sense, but I digress as well. 

No again, what is the logic of not wearing Federal decorations on the corporate uniform? Not sure what the Air Force instructions say, but Army regulations do not prohibit it? In fact, the Department of Veterans Affairs issued a white paper a few years ago saying it was allowed and proper for veterans to wear their earned decorations on civilian clothes and in fact encouraged it on national Holidays like Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, Armed Forces Day and Independence Day.

I worked for a civilian police department at one time where wearing your Federal decorations was authorized, we wore them under our Badges.

I guess it's CAP's uniform, they can set their rules for their uniform how they want, but it seems like a direct snub at those with Military Service to me.

[Eclipse]

I guess it's CAP's uniform, they can set their rules for their uniform how they want, but it seems like a direct snub at those with Military Service to me.

I can't begin to imagine why it's considered a "snub".  Our members a lucky enough to be able to wear them at all.   For most
people who leave the military, their last day in is the last time they wear any uniform, decorations, etc.  A lot of departments
and other organizations let their members wear military decs.  Whatever.  That's most likely some alderman's idea of "affinity"
more then it meaning anything to the public who sees them.

I don't personally really care either way, but they don't mean anything in a CAP context, and we have a contingent who
can't even be bothered to wear our decorations, but feel free to wear a chest full of military decs. I suppose that's semi-understandable for
newer members who would have nothing but a membership ribbon for a while, but when you see a sitting wing CC without a
single CAP ribbon, IMHO, that's a problem.

For clarity, this is not CAP's rule, this is the USAF's.

[Shuman 14]

2) Our regulations indicate that the only military awards members can wear are those earned in another service, and
which are approved for wear on the USAF uniform (these leaves any number of legitimately earned decs and badges which
are not allowed for wear by CAP members.)

Lots of badges... yes, almost all every other medal and ribbon in the US inventory is allowed on the Air Force Uniform, as outlined in AFI36-2903.

The version I found online was dated 2006, so I suspect it needs to be updated to included any awards created after that date and delete references to obsolete decorations no longer awarded (ie the WWII awards).

[abdsp51]

The most current edition is 2011 with changes that were incorporated last year.

[GroundHawg]

Yes, let's all run to see who can list the most obscure civilian decoration or WWII combat award.

We don't qualify for military decs, and certainly not the ones the OP asked about.

Again, I have to ask why don't you?

In my career I've seen one Service give another Service awards and civilian agencies too.

For example, when the GWOT first kicked off, there as a L&O Detachment within my BN that was mobilized to augment an USAF SF unit conducting Airbase security. At the end of their tour, all were awarded Air Force Force Protection Badges. Those were entered on the DD-214 at demob and entered into their 2-1 and SRBs.

Also I remember an Army Hospital once receiving a Public Health Service Unit Commendation.

Plus I can point to numerous times when the Coast Guard has awarded their unit citations to other Services and to the USCGAux. Biggest and best example of that is when the Coast Guard Presidential Unit Citation was awarded to the ENTIRE Coast Guard which specifically included the USCGAux and DoCG civilian employees.

The Coast Guard even awards certain of their Service ribbons to the USCGAux, specifically the Special Operations Service Ribbon and the Recruiting Ribbon.


Another example I'd like to point out was during Katrina, the State of Louisiana issued a blanket award of the Governor's Unit Citation and the LANG Emergency Service Ribbon to ALL military units that took part in the operations to include all Federal (USA, USAF, USN, USMC, USCG), State (ARNG, AFNG, SDF), foreign (French Naval Units) and Auxiliaries (CAP, USCGAux). Now I know that only the various National Guard and State Defense Force units involved could actually wear those ribbons... its the thought that counts.

Shuman, we post on military.com forums a lot. I have a different name there but we post and follow a lot of the same topics.

I was in LA and was awarded the "Seagull" medal, but didn't know and have never heard that we were supposed to get the Governors Unit Citation. Do you have any references for this?

USCG Aux can earn USCG Badges as well btw. The USCG Boat Forces Badge (both types) and the USCG Marine Safety Badge (Trident) can be earned as an Auxie.

[Shuman 14]

I can't begin to imagine why it's considered a "snub".  Our members a lucky enough to be able to wear them at all.

Sir, with respect, your own response is a snub at military service. Lucky to wear them? They EARNED them. I would believe most would consider the directive not to wear them as a snub. After reading thru 80 plus pages of the uniform forum, the consensus I see if most have no issue with the grey or blue corporate uniform, but they want Federal decorations authorized for wear on them.

For clarity, this is not CAP's rule, this is the USAF's.

Even on the Corporation uniform? I can see their oversight and control of the Air Force style uniform, but the Corporate as well? 

[Shuman 14]

The most current edition is 2011 with changes that were incorporated last year.

Thanks, do you have a link?

[abdsp51]

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

[Shuman 14]

I was in LA and was awarded the "Seagull" medal, but didn't know and have never heard that we were supposed to get the Governors Unit Citation. Do you have any references for this?

I saw it in a press release many moons ago when it happened, maybe 6 months after Katrina hit. I personally don't have a hard copy I can send you... sorry. 

[Shuman 14]

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

Thanks again.

[Eclipse]

I can't begin to imagine why it's considered a "snub".  Our members a lucky enough to be able to wear them at all.

Sir, with respect, your own response is a snub at military service. Lucky to wear them? They EARNED them. I would believe most would consider the directive not to wear them as a snub. After reading thru 80 plus pages of the uniform forum, the consensus I see if most have no issue with the grey or blue corporate uniform, but they want Federal decorations authorized for wear on them.

Yes, they EARNED them.  But not in CAP and they have nothing to do with CAP.  Think you can wear your decs on a Boy Scout uniform?  No?
How about the golf shirt you wear when you work with the ARC?  Nope.  That FEMA go team?  Uh uh.
U.S Ranger Corps?  Ok, probably.

Our members have been lucky privileged to wear a variant of the USAF uniform and afforded a place to wear their decs publicly.  Barring
CAP service, most would never wear them again.

Yes, even on a corporate uniform, since for starters, CAP, as an organization, has no authority to allow the wear of military decorations on a non-military uniform.
Their wear on the USAF-style uniform is an anomaly of our lineage and history, yet many members treat it as an inherent right, which, just like driving, it isn't.

[RiverAux]

If you know of a situation where a CAP unit or a CAP member contributed greatly to the USAF's mission in such a way that it deserved a military medal. 

Well, except for the glaring exception of CAP work with the AFRCC, you'd be right.

[Patterson]

Air Force Civilian Awards continue to be awarded to CAP members.  Just because you may not know of any in your area doesn't mean it's not happening. 

[Eclipse]

Air Force Civilian Awards continue to be awarded to CAP members.  Just because you may not know of any in your area doesn't mean it's not happening.

Cite please.

(Plus, that's not what we are discussing).

[flyboy53]

Not quite true......but no CAP does not get USAF Unit Citations.

True.

However, my wife earned one but not through the traditional direct method. She was given authority to wear the ribbon because she was a CAP member twice formally attached to the 439th Military Airlift Wing headquarters when that wing earned one during Desert Storm. She did some PA stuff -- being part of the development of some PSAs and working with the wing's 50th anniversary event. The wing commander, a brigadier general, even signed her CAP Form 120 Commander's Commendation recommendation.

Guess it pays to be in the right place, at the right time and impress someone.

Also, given the nature of the Air Force organizational structure, the award that would most likely be presented would be the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award (for an un-numbered unit) and it would most likely go to CAP-USAF and the liaison structure. Years ago, I read in one of the prop and triangle historical papers that CAP had been awarded a Presidential Unit Citation for its service, but the real recipient were those Army Air Force personnel that made up the CAP headquarters. I can't cite the reference because I tried to google that issue on-line and it was subsequently deleted.

However, if CAP-USAF earned the AFOEA, it would be up to the commander to do a letter/order extending its eligibility to the rest of us.

[Ground_pounder82]

"I don't see it happening....as 99.999% of CAP personnel don't work that closely with USAF personnel and don't directly affect their missions"

First - Obviously you have never flown a Keynote or Green Flag, as those directly affect operational combat training for Active AF, Guard and Reserve forces and even the Army.

Second- If you want a AF unit award you should have joined the AF.  I dont know about anyone else, but I did not join CAP to earn bogus ribbons or pretend to still be in the AF, I joined because I liked to fly and help people who need it.  I have a couple unit citations and they mean nothing to me, since all I had to do is maintain a heart beat and 98.6.  I see alot of people post asnine queations about wanting military awards for volunteer service. CAP does perform valuable missions for the the AF and this country, do ruin that by requesting undue recognition. 

[lordmonar]

"I don't see it happening....as 99.999% of CAP personnel don't work that closely with USAF personnel and don't directly affect their missions"

First - Obviously you have never flown a Keynote or Green Flag, as those directly affect operational combat training for Active AF, Guard and Reserve forces and even the Army.

Second- If you want a AF unit award you should have joined the AF.  I dont know about anyone else, but I did not join CAP to earn bogus ribbons or pretend to still be in the AF, I joined because I liked to fly and help people who need it.  I have a couple unit citations and they mean nothing to me, since all I had to do is maintain a heart beat and 98.6.  I see alot of people post asnine queations about wanting military awards for volunteer service. CAP does perform valuable missions for the the AF and this country, do ruin that by requesting undue recognition.

First......I am a charter member of the GFW program.  I wrote 90% of the Sensor Operator SQTR.
Second.....I am not advocating that we be eligible for AF awards....if you actually read my posts you will see where I said that. 

Thank you for your service.

[Eclipse]

However, my wife earned one but not through the traditional direct method. She was given authority to wear the ribbon because she was a CAP member twice formally attached to the 439th Military Airlift Wing headquarters when that wing earned one during Desert Storm. She did some PA stuff -- being part of the development of some PSAs and working with the wing's 50th anniversary event. The wing commander, a brigadier general, even signed her CAP Form 120 Commander's Commendation recommendation.

So she was in the Air force at the time?

FWIW, an Air Force General has no authority to be signing CAP 120's, and no one in your paragraph had the authority to allow here to wear the dec on a CAP uniform.

[Shuman 14]

"I don't see it happening....as 99.999% of CAP personnel don't work that closely with USAF personnel and don't directly affect their missions"

First - Obviously you have never flown a Keynote or Green Flag, as those directly affect operational combat training for Active AF, Guard and Reserve forces and even the Army.

Second- If you want a AF unit award you should have joined the AF.  I dont know about anyone else, but I did not join CAP to earn bogus ribbons or pretend to still be in the AF, I joined because I liked to fly and help people who need it.  I have a couple unit citations and they mean nothing to me, since all I had to do is maintain a heart beat and 98.6.  I see alot of people post asnine queations about wanting military awards for volunteer service. CAP does perform valuable missions for the the AF and this country, do ruin that by requesting undue recognition.

But what about "due" recognition? Maybe you have not seen a mission deserving of that level of recognition, others here may have.

If someone puts me in for an award, regardless of if "I" believe I am worthy of it, I say thank you and gracefully accept it.

So if some Air Force Commander thought that the CAP, or a unit there of, was deserving of a USAF unit citation, don't question it, be gracious and accept it the spirit it was presented.

[flyboy53]

However, my wife earned one but not through the traditional direct method. She was given authority to wear the ribbon because she was a CAP member twice formally attached to the 439th Military Airlift Wing headquarters when that wing earned one during Desert Storm. She did some PA stuff -- being part of the development of some PSAs and working with the wing's 50th anniversary event. The wing commander, a brigadier general, even signed her CAP Form 120 Commander's Commendation recommendation.

So she was in the Air force at the time?

FWIW, an Air Force General has no authority to be signing CAP 120's, and no one in your paragraph had the authority to allow here to wear the dec on a CAP uniform.

No, as I said she was a CAP officer formally attached to the wing. Doesn't matter. She got the authorization and that's all that counts.

And as far as the Commander's Commendation, the general signed the nomination -- you know the part on the back of the form with the justification. The other appropriate commanders approved it to wing level and it was awarded.

Funny, none of those commanders even questioned an Air Force Reserve General's signature and no one questions the authorization that's in her records now.

[RiverAux]

CAP members are not "formally" attached to AF units.  A very small number of CAP members may and do provide assistance to AF units in various fashions, but they are not "formally" attached.  That implies a degree of integration between the AF and CAP that does not exist. 

[flyboy53]

"I don't see it happening....as 99.999% of CAP personnel don't work that closely with USAF personnel and don't directly affect their missions"

First - Obviously you have never flown a Keynote or Green Flag, as those directly affect operational combat training for Active AF, Guard and Reserve forces and even the Army.

Second- If you want a AF unit award you should have joined the AF.  I dont know about anyone else, but I did not join CAP to earn bogus ribbons or pretend to still be in the AF, I joined because I liked to fly and help people who need it.  I have a couple unit citations and they mean nothing to me, since all I had to do is maintain a heart beat and 98.6.  I see alot of people post asnine queations about wanting military awards for volunteer service. CAP does perform valuable missions for the the AF and this country, do ruin that by requesting undue recognition.

Perhaps the thing to do here is present the idea through channels and see if the Air Force would allow awarding certain decorations with the appropriate justification -- or see if CAP-USAF would consider including the CAP side the next time a submission is made for an AFOUA or AFOEA.

You know AF awards are generally authorized for the ANG, but in many instances, a National Guardsman will be put in for the appropriate state decoration before the Air Force one, and you rarely see anything higher than a Commendation Medal being awarded.

But what about "due" recognition? Maybe you have not seen a mission deserving of that level of recognition, others here may have.

If someone puts me in for an award, regardless of if "I" believe I am worthy of it, I say thank you and gracefully accept it.

So if some Air Force Commander thought that the CAP, or a unit there of, was deserving of a USAF unit citation, don't question it, be gracious and accept it the spirit it was presented.

[Eclipse]

Funny, none of those commanders even questioned an Air Force Reserve General's signature and no one questions the authorization that's in her records now.

Very typical of CAP "looks / sounds cool, let's do it." 

Doesn't make it right.

As far as "due recognition", we have our own awards for our own service.  If it qualifies, then CAP staff and commanders should
submit those, not some award from another service we can't even wear.

[Ground_pounder82]

Lordmonar, copy, I was just putting all my thoughts into one post.  I could tell you were not exactly for it either.  I appreciate your dedication to that mission.  I have flown many Green Flags as out of Nellis and out of Barksdale, and have heard nothing but good things when talking about CAP support to that mission.  I would say that among the AF flyers, the myth that CAP was a bunch of old fogies sitting around waiting for things to happen has been dispelled.

Again, as far as this post is concerned, if your worth is measured by wanting to wear awards  such as the AFMUA, AFOUA then whatever, keep wishing the AF wont do it.  And I believe Eclipse said it and I completely agree but CAP has its own awards. If you are in need of awards, just be proud of the CAP awards you earn.  I dont know any Marines wishing they could get to wear a AFMUA because they worked with a AF unit that was awarded it.  The Marines have their own, and they a proud to wear them.  Maybe this is far fetched example. 

[Shuman 14]

Lordmonar, copy, I was just putting all my thoughts into one post.  I could tell you were not exactly for it either.  I appreciate your dedication to that mission.  I have flown many Green Flags as out of Nellis and out of Barksdale, and have heard nothing but good things when talking about CAP support to that mission.  I would say that among the AF flyers, the myth that CAP was a bunch of old fogies sitting around waiting for things to happen has been dispelled.

Again, as far as this post is concerned, if your worth is measured by wanting to wear awards  such as the AFMUA, AFOUA then whatever, keep wishing the AF wont do it.  And I believe Eclipse said it and I completely agree but CAP has its own awards. If you are in need of awards, just be proud of the CAP awards you earn.  I don't know any Marines wishing they could get to wear a AFMUA because they worked with a AF unit that was awarded it.  The Marines have their own, and they a proud to wear them.  Maybe this is far fetched example.

A little, it's not an uncommon practice for one Service to award unit citations to other Services nor is it uncommon for individual awards to be presented. With all the inter-Service interaction outside of formal Joint Commands in theater, it is in fact common now for that to happen.

So, if an Army Commander wished to award a Sailor a Commendation Medal for duty he/she did in support of an Army unit, he would send the recommendation for an Army Commendation Medal up thru the Army chain, NOT a recommendation for a Naval Commendation Medal thru the Navy chain.

So in context of this discussion, yes CAP has its own awards, but if an OUTSIDE agency, which in this context the USAF is, wished to present a unit award or an individual award, it can and should do so as they, the outside agency, deem it appropriate and proper for "due recognition" from within its own channels and chains of command. 

[lordmonar]

I agree.

The USAF could award USAF medals to just about anyone they wanted....they control the award thereof.....they just don't.

And in my AD time I know a lot of people who earned ARCOM and ARACHEV and a bunch of Army types who earned AFCM and AFAMs for their cross service support.

And no....JSAM, JSCM, and JDSM were not appropriate as they are only for people working in "JOINT" service billets or units.

[Shuman 14]

ARACHEV

Just FYI, we call them AAMs in the Army.

[SpookyDude]

Personally I think the process for determining what type of award (if any) a person should get stems directly from the person's duty position and what actually occurred - cases in point:

1. You are performing CAP corporation duties as a CAP member, you should get a CAP corporate award.
2. You are preforming CAP AFAM duties as a CAP member, and your mission chain of command is all CAP, you should get a CAP award.
3. same as #2 above, but you're under the joint command of an operational AF unit, then you could get either a CAP award, or an AF award for non-employee Civilian Service.
4. same as #3 above, except the unit you're under is Army, Navy, DOHS, CIA, FBI, or whatever, you could get either a CAP award or a suitable award from that other service for non-employee Civilian Service.

The big caveat is that you can't earn both an outside award and a CAP award for the same service. It's one or the other. And then you'd only be able to wear the outside agency award if the AF allows you to wear it on the AF uniform - and then you could only wear it on AF-Style, not CAP distinctive.

Make sense? 

Edit Note: The are lots of "other agency" awards that can be worn on the AF uniform that civilians and CAP members can earn - the highest award I believe is the Presidential Medal of Freedom with Distinction.

[lordmonar]

Since #3 and #4 NEVER happen......we are where we are today.

CAP is always CAP.....even when we are directly support and Air Force Mission (ala Green Flag).

[Private Investigator]

Make sense? 

NO   

[Shuman 14]

Since #3 and #4 NEVER happen......we are where we are today.

CAP is always CAP.....even when we are directly support and Air Force Mission (ala Green Flag).

And the Army is always the Army... yet it has received numerous USAF unit citations. 

[lordmonar]

Since #3 and #4 NEVER happen......we are where we are today.

CAP is always CAP.....even when we are directly support and Air Force Mission (ala Green Flag).

And the Army is always the Army... yet it has received numerous USAF unit citations. 

True....but I have yet to see any CAP unit.....with maybe the exception of the Green Flag Group and it daughter squadrons.....do anything even close to rate a USAF AFOUA or a  AFOEA.

So....what's the point.

[Shuman 14]

Since #3 and #4 NEVER happen......we are where we are today.

CAP is always CAP.....even when we are directly support and Air Force Mission (ala Green Flag).

And the Army is always the Army... yet it has received numerous USAF unit citations. 

True....but I have yet to see any CAP unit.....with maybe the exception of the Green Flag Group and it daughter squadrons.....do anything even close to rate a USAF AFOUA or a  AFOEA.

So....what's the point.

I submit you that you just admitted that there are units within CAP that have performed at levels that could be recognized by a USAF unit citation... that's the point.

[flyboy53]

Since #3 and #4 NEVER happen......we are where we are today.

CAP is always CAP.....even when we are directly support and Air Force Mission (ala Green Flag).

And the Army is always the Army... yet it has received numerous USAF unit citations. 

True....but I have yet to see any CAP unit.....with maybe the exception of the Green Flag Group and it daughter squadrons.....do anything even close to rate a USAF AFOUA or a  AFOEA.

So....what's the point.

I submit you that you just admitted that there are units within CAP that have performed at levels that could be recognized by a USAF unit citation... that's the point.

There are always exceptional units that perform to a level that is recognized by the Air Force, but that's not the point lordmonar's making. Whether or not some Air Force unit commander recognizes a CAP unit's service as worthy of a unit award, the reality of it is that the recognition would not be anything like an AFOUA or AFOEA. More than likely that commander would either coordinate with a higher CAP headquarters for a Unit Citation or author/approve/sign it himself as a nominator (not the approving authority). That doesn't include those few instances when a State Adjutant General presents something similar (a state award/unit citation), but that's a whole other story.

All this discussion about Air Force unit awards -- though spirited at times -- forgot one very important thing. That these unit awards are a process that fall within cycles and are usually done in coordination with a unit historian or the PA Shop. The most successful ones that I'm aware of always began with the unit historian and then the nomination climbs through channels all the way to the Air Staff for approval because it is a unit level award equal to an individual award of the Legion of Merit. It is never just given. At least that was always my experience -- AND -- the nomination is generally pages of justification. I know this because I helped write a successful one and then provided data, statistics and other justification for another successful one.

I'm sorry but in reality I've never seen a CAP unit -- even the most successful ones -- stand up to the sustained criteria necessary for an AFOUA -- which is another reason why we have our own.

[Shuman 14]

Flyboy1,

I concur that an AFOUA, based on the criteria you outlined above, would be hard to sustain for a CAP unit. The only way I could think it might fly is as an anniversary award to the CAP as a whole in 2016 for 75 years of dedicated volunteer service to the USAF and the Nation.

There is Precedence for this, the USCG has awarded the Coast Guard Unit Citation (CGUC) to the USCGAux on several major anniversaries.

What are your thoughts on an AFOEA? Lower level award, so I'm guessing the requirements are not as in depth as for an AFOUA?     

[Eclipse]

If CAP ever exhibits OE, we can talk.

[Shuman 14]

If CAP ever exhibits OE, we can talk.

Way to talk bad about yourself, I've only ever good and positive things from CAP.

[Eclipse]

If CAP ever exhibits OE, we can talk.

Way to talk bad about yourself, I've only ever good and positive things from CAP.

And as an experienced member and one who has worked hard to make things better, I've earned the right to make
that comment.  The first step to fixing things is accepting the reality of the way they are, not how we wish they were.

While we manage to accomplish our missions, usually through far too much last-minute brute force, organizationally
we're a mess - inconsistent training, leaders chosen using their presence as the primary factor, and competing
factions within almost every echelon as to what our mission is or should be.

The means to fix it exists, but generally requires more attrition and uncomfortable conversations then commanders
and NHQ is willing to accept.

[Private Investigator]

Good points indeed. I am optimistic on most things but CAP is a good example of the Prieto Principle. 20% of the Senior Members do 80% of the Senior Member work.

We do have a disconnect between NHQ and the local Squadron Commander. Part of it is a lack of knowledge of "Commanders Intent" and the other is a combination of the 'good ole boy network' and running the unit like a little league team or a boy scout troop. i.e. putting their personal interests ahead of the mission.

JMHO YMMV

[flyboy53]

Flyboy1,

I concur that an AFOUA, based on the criteria you outlined above, would be hard to sustain for a CAP unit. The only way I could think it might fly is as an anniversary award to the CAP as a whole in 2016 for 75 years of dedicated volunteer service to the USAF and the Nation.

There is Precedence for this, the USCG has awarded the Coast Guard Unit Citation (CGUC) to the USCGAux on several major anniversaries.

What are your thoughts on an AFOEA? Lower level award, so I'm guessing the requirements are not as in depth as for an AFOUA?   

I concur with Eclipse and Private Investigator, but to answer your question. the AFOEA is not the lesser of the two awards. It is equal.

The AFOUA was created in 1954 and has the distinction of being the first "independent" USAF decoration or unit award. It is awarded to a "NUMBERED" unit for exceptionally meritorious service, specific acts of outstanding achievement, excellence in combat operations against an armed enemy, or conducting distinctive military operations with exposure to hostile force against an armed enemy. It is awarded with the "V" device if the nomination is based on combat operations. I am fortunate enough to have earned six of these with two that I was directly involved in the nomination either as the author or having assisted with. And, just to let you know, the AFOUA that I authored was six pages of single-line justification.

The AFOEA was authorized by the Secretary of the Air Force in 1969. It is awarded to "UNNUMBERED" Air Force internal organizations that are entities within larger organizations which conduct operations meeting the same criteria of an AFOUA. These are unique, unnumbered organizations or activities that perform same functions normally performed by numbered wings, groups, or squadrons. It also is awarded with a "V" device if combat related. I earned two AFOEAs. It is probably the rarest of the unit awards in terms of being seen on uniforms because of the nature of the unnumbered organizational criteria.

Something else to know is that there are ribbons for these unit awards and USAF-issued lapel pins that can be worn with civilian clothes because of the nature of these decorations.

If CAP were ever to earn anything like these two awards, I speculate that it would be the AFOEA, but the nomination would have to begin with CAP-USAF and submitted through channels to the Air Staff, and either CAP-USAF or the Air Staff would have to stipulate that the award included the CAP side.

Now, as to why, the USCG Auxiliary gets to wear USCG awards? I suspect that has more to do with several aspects of that organization that CAP never was to the Air Force. You are aware that the USCG Auxiliary was organized (and created under federal law) in World War II as a Reserve of the Coast Guard. That basis in federal law and the changes that occur in the years that follow, allow "Auxies" to perform duties that CAP members can only dream about -- like standing watch or Officer of the Day duties, flying on a USCG aircraft or even manning a USCG boat.

There seems to be a much greater integration of function between the USCG and the USCG Auxiliary than exists between the USAF and the CAP. I would hope that our leadership is working to correct that.

[RiverAux]

to perform duties that CAP members can only dream about -- like standing watch or Officer of the Day duties, flying on a USCG aircraft or even manning a USCG boat.

There actually isn't anything that prevents the AF from using CAP members in the same way.  As a reminder from Title 10 Sec 9442:

The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of the Civil Air Patrol to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Department of the Air Force.

So, the AF could use CAP members to fly their C130s around the US and do a multitude of other tasks.  I'm not saying there is a need or that the AF should use CAP for something so extreme, but its possible. 

Yes, the AF should make more use of CAP members but I really doubt that it is going to happen so long as there is billions to be made by private contractors. 

[Garibaldi]

to perform duties that CAP members can only dream about -- like standing watch or Officer of the Day duties, flying on a USCG aircraft or even manning a USCG boat.

There actually isn't anything that prevents the AF from using CAP members in the same way.  As a reminder from Title 10 Sec 9442:

The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of the Civil Air Patrol to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Department of the Air Force.

So, the AF could use CAP members to fly their C130s around the US and do a multitude of other tasks.  I'm not saying there is a need or that the AF should use CAP for something so extreme, but its possible. 

Yes, the AF should make more use of CAP members but I really doubt that it is going to happen so long as there is billions to be made by private contractors.

Hey, I'd loooooove to fly a C-130 around. Airdropping a ground team and equipment...

[Shuman 14]

Flyboy1,

I concur that an AFOUA, based on the criteria you outlined above, would be hard to sustain for a CAP unit. The only way I could think it might fly is as an anniversary award to the CAP as a whole in 2016 for 75 years of dedicated volunteer service to the USAF and the Nation.

There is Precedence for this, the USCG has awarded the Coast Guard Unit Citation (CGUC) to the USCGAux on several major anniversaries.

What are your thoughts on an AFOEA? Lower level award, so I'm guessing the requirements are not as in depth as for an AFOUA?   

I concur with Eclipse and Private Investigator, but to answer your question. the AFOEA is not the lesser of the two awards. It is equal.

The AFOUA was created in 1954 and has the distinction of being the first "independent" USAF decoration or unit award. It is awarded to a "NUMBERED" unit for exceptionally meritorious service, specific acts of outstanding achievement, excellence in combat operations against an armed enemy, or conducting distinctive military operations with exposure to hostile force against an armed enemy. It is awarded with the "V" device if the nomination is based on combat operations. I am fortunate enough to have earned six of these with two that I was directly involved in the nomination either as the author or having assisted with. And, just to let you know, the AFOUA that I authored was six pages of single-line justification.

The AFOEA was authorized by the Secretary of the Air Force in 1969. It is awarded to "UNNUMBERED" Air Force internal organizations that are entities within larger organizations which conduct operations meeting the same criteria of an AFOUA. These are unique, unnumbered organizations or activities that perform same functions normally performed by numbered wings, groups, or squadrons. It also is awarded with a "V" device if combat related. I earned two AFOEAs. It is probably the rarest of the unit awards in terms of being seen on uniforms because of the nature of the unnumbered organizational criteria.

Something else to know is that there are ribbons for these unit awards and USAF-issued lapel pins that can be worn with civilian clothes because of the nature of these decorations.

If CAP were ever to earn anything like these two awards, I speculate that it would be the AFOEA, but the nomination would have to begin with CAP-USAF and submitted through channels to the Air Staff, and either CAP-USAF or the Air Staff would have to stipulate that the award included the CAP side.

Now, as to why, the USCG Auxiliary gets to wear USCG awards? I suspect that has more to do with several aspects of that organization that CAP never was to the Air Force. You are aware that the USCG Auxiliary was organized (and created under federal law) in World War II as a Reserve of the Coast Guard. That basis in federal law and the changes that occur in the years that follow, allow "Auxies" to perform duties that CAP members can only dream about -- like standing watch or Officer of the Day duties, flying on a USCG aircraft or even manning a USCG boat.

There seems to be a much greater integration of function between the USCG and the USCG Auxiliary than exists between the USAF and the CAP. I would hope that our leadership is working to correct that.

Thank you for the information and the history lesson on the two awards; I just learned something today. 

[Eclipse]

..allow "Auxies" to perform duties that CAP members can only dream about -- like standing watch or Officer of the Day duties, flying on a USCG aircraft or even manning a USCG boat.

"Dream about"? Seriously?  Standing watch or being an OOD? 
I seriously doubt an appreciable number of members over the age of 21 "dream about" standing watch or sitting at a desk and recording who comes into a building, or for that matter,
processing Tri-Care paperwork, or any of the other duties that the now (apparently) defunct VSAF program purported members could or would do.  In the appropriate situation most of
us would happily do it, but just like SUI's, that's not why we joined.

Members join for a lot of reasons, but if history and our churn rate show us anything, they generally don't join to do their day job on a volunteer basis in their off time, nor are they interested in
any of the mundane administrative jobs that most USAF people perform day-to-day as their primary CAP duty.  We all put up with them because we have to, but that's not why we joined, nor would it
do us much good to put that high on recruiting collateral.

As to flying on USCG aircraft - not really a factor in the mostly land-locked CONUS, but we get O-Rides on USAF vehicles all the time.  I've had a 130-ride, and my former unit has recently done 130 and KC135 rides, they aren't that hard to get.   Also, we have our own planes.

For some reason what is missed when people try and compare CAP to the CGAux is that absent augmentation, there is no other role or mission, and in areas that have no boating or appreciable bodies of water, there's no CGAux.  CAP has a whole bunch of work to do which is complimentary to the USAF's mission, but exists separately.  How it got there is complicated, but comparing the
services doesn't do much for either side.  The culture, relationships, and roles are completely different.  That doesn't make either "better", just different.

[Shuman 14]

I can think of one program that USCGAux does that CAP should really look into... augmenting Recruiting Offices.

[Eclipse]

I can think of one program that USCGAux does that CAP should really look into... augmenting Recruiting Offices.

Why?

We already have enough issues with CAP being viewed by some as a recruiting arm / fodder for the USAF as it is.
Not to mention the fact that, absent prior USAF service, CAP members aren't going to be exactly "informed" about
the intricacies of committing.

Not our lane, and I can't imagine why the CGAux is involved, either.

[lordmonar]

I can think of one program that USCGAux does that CAP should really look into... augmenting Recruiting Offices.

Why?

We already have enough issues with CAP being viewed by some as a recruiting arm / fodder for the USAF as it is.
Not to mention the fact that, absent prior USAF service, CAP members aren't going to be exactly "informed" about
the intricacies of committing.

Not our lane, and I can't imagine why the CGAux is involved, either.

No....but we could fill in paperwork, make the coffee, answer the phone, go with the recruiter to help set up and tear down at events......not necessarily doing the hard sell.

Second.....what is wrong with the USAF Auxiliary being viewed as a recruiting tool of the USAF?

Third.....while yes not everyone in CAP is prior military....there are lot of use who are and are informed about the intricacies of committing.  Just like not everyone is a pilot.....not everything CAP does has to be open to everyone.

YMMV

[RiverAux]

in areas that have no boating or appreciable bodies of water, there's no CGAux.

Yet, there are roughly as many CG Aux units (and members) as CAP units (and senior members). 

Standing watch or being an OOD? 

Yes, there are CG Aux members that specifically joined to do just that sort of thing.  Not a lot relatively speaking, but they're there. 

My estimate would be that if there were active AF and/or Air NG augmentation roles for CAP members that it could eventually result in a doubling of CAP members in units near Air Force and Air NG bases.  Possibly even more since there are significantly more potential roles and jobs for CAP members at these units than at a typical very small CG unit. 

However, it would require significant commitment by AF/Air NG and CAP to develop and support such programs.  Several SDFs with Air NG components show that there can be real uses of volunteers by these units. 

We already have enough issues with CAP being viewed by some as a recruiting arm / fodder for the USAF as it is.

Only by idiots.  Anyone who knows anything about the program realizes that isn't the case. 

[Mustang]

I seem to recall a discussion on CadetStuff a few years ago regarding CAP members being specifically mentioned in the applicable AFI as authorized to receive the AF small arms expert marksmanship ribbon if properly earned as part of a small arms qualification course taught by AF CATM instructors.  I don't remember the specific AFI and that thread was lost to a database dump IIRC.

[abdsp51]

I seem to recall a discussion on CadetStuff a few years ago regarding CAP members being specifically mentioned in the applicable AFI as authorized to receive the AF small arms expert marksmanship ribbon if properly earned as part of a small arms qualification course taught by AF CATM instructors.  I don't remember the specific AFI and that thread was lost to a database dump IIRC.

The AFI is 36-2803 and currently there is nothing in there about us being able to earn the small arms marksmenship ribbon from the AF.  And it is dated 2001.