New ES Patch --need help posting the picture

[arajca]

Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

Perhaps something like this?

[zonaman]

Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

I like It. It's a good start for simplicity and streamlining all the mismatched badges. BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

[arajca]

BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

I'm not touching that one at this time. That would be a much bigger can of worms.

My ES specialty insignia is a first step in reducing the use of the ES patch. Perhaps you noticed the line "With the adoption of this system, members would be able to wear either the ES patch (either version) or specialty insignia, but not both." IMNSHO, having a nice looking badge will reduce the number of members wearing the ES patch to few enough that discontinuing it's use will become a matter of enshrining common pratice into regulation, rather than a perceived slap in the face to non-aircrew/ground team types.

[Eclipse]

I have no issue with your matrix, makes sense to me.

But I do have an issue with adding made-up positions which do not exist in CAP regulations such as RUL, SUL, and whatever "NOC Augmentee" is, etc.

[Eclipse]

BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

Or just move them "up" over the ribbons for those who don't have an operational qualification.  This would force people to choose
one (that day), and reduce the clutter on our uniforms.

Just chrome the existing molds instead of enameling them.

[zonaman]

BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

I'm not touching that one at this time. That would be a much bigger can of worms. .

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant that statement to in general, not specifically to you. It is a big cao-o-worms and I don' know why, is it going to hurt someones feelings if they are updated or brought in line with AF badges. I may be wrong, but didn't all those little shields show up around time the AF created a badge for every AF job so we could be in line with them?

I'm not trying to be difficult but I really don't understand why it's a big can-o-worms, maybe I missed something. I'm not trying to change anything right now or the future. Its been said a couple of times so that's why I'm curious.

[arajca]

I have no issue with your matrix, makes sense to me.

But I do have an issue with adding made-up positions which do not exist in CAP regulations such as RUL, SUL, and whatever "NOC Augmentee" is, etc.

I pulled the list out of CAPR 60-3, so all but 2 of the positions do exist in the regs. Whether they're defined or not, is another story. The only ones I added were CERT Team Leader and CISM Team Leader. If CAP moves into these is a significant way, I can easily see those positions/titles being created. Yes, I'm aware that CERT does not have team leaders as a separate skill set.

The ones I know of that need definition (besides mine) include:
Highbird Radio Operator
Cost Unit Leader
Resource Unit Leader
Situation Unit Leader
NOC Augmentee
Aerial Digital Imaging System Operator
Airborne Photographer
All the ARCHER ones

[arajca]

BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

I'm not touching that one at this time. That would be a much bigger can of worms. .

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant that statement to in general, not specifically to you. It is a big cao-o-worms and I don' know why, is it going to hurt someones feelings if they are updated or brought in line with AF badges. I may be wrong, but didn't all those little shields show up around time the AF created a badge for every AF job so we could be in line with them?

I'm not trying to be difficult but I really don't understand why it's a big can-o-worms, maybe I missed something. I'm not trying to change anything right now or the future. Its been said a couple of times so that's why I'm curious.

Given the significant expenditure folks made on the CSU and the resultant outcry over its elimination, many more folks have invested in the current specialty badges. This includes the folks who wear the AF style uniforms. Changing the specialty badges for no apparent reason would really upset almost all the senior members in CAP, since almost all have invested in them. Additionally, the badges really don't wear out, so saying once they're worn out, replace with new, isn't a realistic option. Not to mention the cost of CAP buying out the obsolete badges from Vanguard since they could not be used by any other organization. The badges currently run $6.60 - $7.15. Many seniors have multiple badges (I have 7) so they can wear the appriopriate one for the activity they're dealing with.

[zonaman]

BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

I'm not touching that one at this time. That would be a much bigger can of worms. .

Given the significant expenditure folks made on the CSU and the resultant outcry over its elimination, many more folks have invested in the current specialty badges. This includes the folks who wear the AF style uniforms. Changing the specialty badges for no apparent reason would really upset almost all the senior members in CAP, since almost all have invested in them. Additionally, the badges really don't wear out, so saying once they're worn out, replace with new, isn't a realistic option. Not to mention the cost of CAP buying out the obsolete badges from Vanguard since they could not be used by any other organization. The badges currently run $6.60 - $7.15. Many seniors have multiple badges (I have 7) so they can wear the appriopriate one for the activity they're dealing with.

That cleans up some of my curiosity.

Or just move them "up" over the ribbons for those who don't have an operational qualification.  This would force people to choose
one (that day), and reduce the clutter on our uniforms.

Just chrome the existing molds instead of enameling them.

I like it.

[Hawk200]

Additionally, the badges really don't wear out, so saying once they're worn out, replace with new, isn't a realistic option.

A point I hadn't considered. Certainly valid. Are some so desperate to change that they're willing to throw away someone else's money? I think most reasonable people could say that's exaclty what is happening.

In a related concept, I think some changes for the Commander's Badge should be considered. Right now, a CO moving out of the position goes from a 6 plus dollar badge to an 85 cent ribbon. Mirror the Air Force, move the badge down upon "graduation."  It's just like the specialty badges, it doesn't wear out, so replacing it just to replace it is a waste. There's a few criteria that could be adjusted for it as well.

Of course, something else just occurred to me: Anyone notice how the Command Service Ribbon uses the exact same colors as the Community Service ribbon? I know two people that thought the Community Service ribbon was Command Service, and were wearing the wrong ribbon. Easy to get confused, they use the same colors.

[JC004]

Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

Perhaps something like this?

YONK.  I'm stealing this and uploading it to Col Weiss's collection of documents for him to consider after the election.

[arajca]

That's fine. It's already been submitted through normal channels as well.

[JC004]

Those channels will be all out of sorts in less than a month

[AlphaSigOU]

Of course, something else just occurred to me: Anyone notice how the Command Service Ribbon uses the exact same colors as the Community Service ribbon? I know two people that thought the Community Service ribbon was Command Service, and were wearing the wrong ribbon. Easy to get confused, they use the same colors.

Yep. Identical design except for the placement of the outer red-white blue stripes.

Personally, I would ditch the ribbon and add a star and 'toilet seat' to the command badge to denote current service as a wing, region or national commander. And the placement to determine active and graduated commanders works fine for me.

In the RealAirForce®, the commander's badge is awarded to colonels and below. General officers don't wear a current or graduated command pin. Here's the qualifications for the command badge, from AFI 36-2903, chapter 10:

10.3.24. Commanders' Insignia. The Command Insignia pin is mandatory on all blue service uniforms and is worn by all eligible commissioned officers in the rank of Colonel (O-6) and below. Commanders of a squadron, group, wing, or other organizations identified at: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/dress/faq.asp  wear the commanders' insignia pin on the right side of the uniform jacket in the same relative position as the badges worn on the left on the formal dress and mess dress uniform. When currently in command, wear the pin above the name tag on the service dress uniform. The pin is worn below the nametag upon completion of command duties. Wear of the pin on the light blue uniform shirt is the same, above the name tag when in command and below the name tag upon completion of command.

10.3.24.1. No longer associated with commander's pay.

10.3.24.2. Additional approvals for wear made by CSAF.

10.3.24.3. Member must be a Colonel (O-6) and below to wear commander's insignia.

10.3.24.4. Must posses and exercise UCMJ authority (appointed on G-Series orders).

10.3.24.5. Must be competitively selected by a board (AFPC/MAJCOM/FOA, etc.
10.3.24.6. Commanders must be filling: Squadron, Group, Wing, or other position identified at: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/dress/faq.asp .

10.3.24.7. Commander's insignia will not be worn by "temporary" or "acting" commanders.

10.3.24.8. Commanders must serve entire tenure for permanent wear.

10.3.24.9. Vice and Deputy Commanders are not authorized wear of the insignia. However, they may wear the insignia as a graduated commander from previously held command positions.

10.3.24.10. Flag Officers are not authorized wear of the insignia.

10.3.24.11. Detachment Commanders are not authorized wear of the commander's insignia.

We could even ditch the group commander's badge and keep just the basic badge - the RealAirForce® does not distinguish between command levels.

[afgeo4]

Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

Perhaps something like this?

Fantastic!  Send it to BOG immediately!

[arajca]

Additionally, the badges really don't wear out, so saying once they're worn out, replace with new, isn't a realistic option.

A point I hadn't considered. Certainly valid. Are some so desperate to change that they're willing to throw away someone else's money? I think most reasonable people could say that's exaclty what is happening.

In a related concept, I think some changes for the Commander's Badge should be considered. Right now, a CO moving out of the position goes from a 6 plus dollar badge to an 85 cent ribbon. Mirror the Air Force, move the badge down upon "graduation."  It's just like the specialty badges, it doesn't wear out, so replacing it just to replace it is a waste. There's a few criteria that could be adjusted for it as well.

The Commander's badge is more likely to be passed on from one commander to the next, based on my experience.

[Slim]

The Commander's badge is more likely to be passed on from one commander to the next, based on my experience.

^This.

I'm the fourth commander in my squadron to wear the badge.  When I step down, it will go to my successor.

[Hawk200]

The Commander's badge is more likely to be passed on from one commander to the next, based on my experience.

^This.

I'm the fourth commander in my squadron to wear the badge.  When I step down, it will go to my successor.

Do you give all the Commander's Badges to your successors? Because having only one is a bit hard to believe. Personally, I have at least two of any badge I'm authorized. Having a single one left to wear as a graduated commander isn't unreasonable, people wouldn't be as picky about a graduated commander only wearing one on shirt/blouse or on their coat. But I don't have any problem passing one in tradition, it's fitting.

[Eclipse]

I had several as well - for starters you need one on your shirt when you're wearing a jacket.

When I was run over by the truck of terms limits, was voted off the island, was relieved, relinquished command in April I gave one to my successor as part of the change-of-command and kept one for my ultimate and glorious return to power shadowbox.

[Hawk200]

... for starters you need one on your shirt when you're wearing a jacket.

You don't actually need one on the shirt as well, but it tends to be common practice.

I've worn service coat with all the bling, but only nametag/rank on the shirt underneath (as well as a wing patch, but it was mandatory at the time) a number of times before. I can also think of a few times I had people tell me that I was supposed to be wearing everything on the shirt that I had on the service coat. Funny thing is when I handed them the uniform manual and told them to show me, they couldn't.